T-Bone

that's ok - i appreciate the thought

Hi Grease Spotters, Just wanted to mention why I am incredulous with some of the posts on this thread (like the ones quoted above). It just seems like a trick to outmaneuver other posters who make legitimate points…someone claims they are that far ahead of the curve when issues like lying and sexual immorality are being discussed on this thread – he claims he was looking into these issues many years ago…. I guess he thinks I should give credence to his take on the issues being discussed…Sorry, but I say that’s bull$hit. He states “I was on fire with researching the phenomenon of lying. I mean even to the point of making crude lie detectors at home.” I mean…come on…why? Is he trying to beat a lie detector test? Does he think he’s lying to himself? This is so ridiculous... Sorry but my bull$hit detector is spiking big time on that one…But wait…it gets better… He also said “I was in touch with scientists who were top polygraph experts. Later in life I hung around with brain scientists who often dealt with what they call "confabulation" where various varieties of brain damage can cause a victim to lie profusely and way beyond credulity.” Has anyone looked up confabulation here’s an excerpt from that link: “Confabulation is a memory disturbance in which a person confuses imagined scenarios with actual memories with no intent to deceive. Most cases of confabulation are the result of dementia, brain damage, aneurism or Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (thiamine deficiency due to alcoholism). People who confabulate stories are often very confident in their memories even after being shown contradicting evidence. These stories can vary from slight truth alterations to completely unbelievable or bizarre tales. Even when the stories are completely false, the person appears coherent, consistent and relatively normal. Confabulations are classified into one of two categories: provoked and spontaneous. A provoked confabulation is when a patient invents an untrue story in response to a question. These tend to be quite common among patients with amnesia or dementia. A spontaneous confabulation is a more rare occurrence and involves the telling of an untrue story with no apparent motivation.” == == == == Considering the person’s dishonest tendencies on many threads (like frequently changing the subject to avoid answering direct questions, rarely provides proof of claims,often resorts to using logical fallacies, ignores facts and evidence, often presents skewed alternate versions of wierwille’s history) I am tempted to think his claims of studying so much about lying, the brain and confabulation are actually a confabulation of his experience as a patient in some study on confabulation. == == == == == Reviewing a few of his statements: “we’d do a grad night and work “adultery” and “fornication” from KJV, Young’s, Bullinger, Interlinear, etc. We also collected about 9 rationalizations to casual sex that had floated around sparingly for years. I think the “spiritually mature” thing was one of them. I was surprised and delighted when I first saw the JS paper on adultery. He had about 14 appendixes that were the same rationalizations we had 9 of. We had done a mini JS paper in 1979ish. “ and “I mentioned that that sounded familiar to me, because my twig did a mini-research work on adultery and bs rationalizations that were popping up around the ministry and causing trouble. In other words, me and my twig were blowing the whistle on the bs rationalization “spiritual maturity” a few years before JS did with his paper. “ Yeah…my bull$hit detector is registering 11 on all that…and my bull$hit detector only goes up to 10…I actually had to draw a number 11 on the scale to accommodate the input overload. …but anyway…I seriously doubt much of what’s been said in the above posts because it hits me as an unabashed ploy - stating one has worked on acquiring expert knowledge or expertise on something WAY BEFORE anyone else. This is really just a childish game of one-upmanship…not buying it…nuff said.

alright my Yahtzee got a Bingo...hallelujah !!! anybody up for Parcheesi ?

Now, Grace please don’t be upset - I wasn’t plagiarizing …just wanted to invoke your wonderful name and catchphrase I thought of yelling Yahtzee but that only works in Vegas

“dulled to questionable behavior, and therefore a pushover for any rationalization. Dulled to it yes; spiritually mature, pretty unlikely.” Hmmmmm… wierwille supposedly the most “spiritually mature” in TWI had a knack for desensitizing folks to questionable behavior (please see the thread TWI's Sedative to the Conscience for details on that)…yeah “spiritually mature” was just code for religious hypocrisy. ya know “great” sexual predators think alike –consider the recent scandal of that sexual predator scum physician of MSU and how he exploited privilege and trust; check out this link in Psychology Today here's a snippet of that article: “Betrayal, violation of trust, and remembrance of the inappropriate acts can leave abuse survivors with trauma-related symptoms. Conditions such as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), anxiety, depression, complex PTSD, eating disorders, substance abuse, alcohol dependence, or a disordered personality (i.e., borderline personality) are not uncommon after abuse. Understanding the psychological and neurobiological impact of trauma on survivors can help the abused and those who love them pursue treatment and support. Heinous acts that violate our trust and body often disrupt neurochemistry and lead to dysregulation of the emotional system within our brain. These neurobiological changes can leave a survivor in a state of suffering, pain, and anger long after the abuse.” == == == == "I missed out on a lot of fun, but it looks like I missed out on a lot of misery also." Mike, that seems like such a callous and flippant thing to say. please re-read the above excerpt from Psychology Today , think about this from the victim's point of view...what if you were one of the women victimized by wierwille? Then how much admiration would you have for him and all the stuff he preached about ? would you be so quick to come to his defense? == == == as far as the rationalization goes – that’s what the predator does - NOT the victim! From Wikipedia on rationalization “In psychology and logic, rationalization or rationalisation (also known as making excuses) is a defense mechanism in which controversial behaviors or feelings are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and are made consciously tolerable—or even admirable and superior—by plausible means. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.” == == == wierwille violated the privilege and trust of the people he supposedly served – he didn’t give two $hits about personal boundaries…you’ve heard of doctor’s without borders…wierwille was a fake doctor without boundaries.

yup !!!! I agree...or as Grace would say "bingo"

Yes, there were some pretty harsh consequences for David’s sinfulness – and I don’t think that comes as a surprise to anyone who studies the cultural background of the Bible or for that matter, anyone that has some sense of right and wrong…but your comments here make me want to touch on something you said in the previous post: I think it’s only a matter of time for the moral ambiguity of TWI to wear down - or perhaps anesthetize the conscience of followers…like bringing a pot to boil slowly, the frog will probably sit in it until he cooks…many former way corps on Grease Spot have attested to fact that wierwille taught one thing to the general public “the word means what it says and says what it means” for example…but to the way corps he would often promote the idea that one could become so spiritually mature that you could handle something that a lot of less "spiritually minded" folks couldn't - - like adultery...that's probably one of the biggest tricks of how people got fooled into thinking there's no degrees of sin.

Perhaps you’re overthinking the issue...many cultures / societies past and present follow a similar dictum of “punishment should fit the crime” whether in criminal or civil cases...and usually within a judicial framework- many details are taken into account such as if others were harmed and to what extent by the perpetrator of the crime.

Contrary to a popular belief in TWI there are many Bible passages that suggest there are degrees of punishment depending on the degree of sin - here are just a few: Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town...Matthew 10:15 NIV Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” ...John 19:11 NIV 20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodomand Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” ....Genesis 18:20, 21 NIV 13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[14] 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are....Matthew 23:13-15 NIV 38 As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 40 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”...Mark 12: 38 - 40 NIV I tend to think wierwille pushed the idea of all sin is the same in God’s eyes so his sexual predations wouldn’t look so bad when compared to someone just losing their temper with their spouse.

Prove: demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument. wierwille - known as a man of god by TWI followers - was a hypocrite, liar and thief who said he stood for the accuracy and integrity of “the word”. Proof? Evidence and arguments that is so? Accounts of his licentious behavior as told by former way corps and noting specific sources that he plagiarized. that is my “thesis” and has yet to be proven wrong

Some great points, RottieGrrrl - I think along those same lines and enjoy garnering things from other belief systems and philosophies… I just wanted to add a few comments…not really addressing you or anyone in particular… …anyway… there’s been some threads on Grease Spot that basically ask “did you throw out the baby with the bathwater?” (I think there’s even a thread by that name too) – personally I don’t really consider PFAL / TWI-doctrine as a valid belief system or philosophy simply because it’s a cobbled-together mess by an incompetent plagiarist ( a theological liar and thief). If a Christian is that concerned about “the baby” how about the baby Jesus…keep it simple, start from the gospels and work your way around the rest of the scriptures – concentrically speaking - with Jesus Christ at the center of it all. And I don’t think it’s a bad idea for Christians to rethink their attitude toward the Bible anyway - after leaving TWI…it wasn’t really declared out loud – but TWI followers tended to worship the Bible…perhaps even to the point of sometimes overshadowing the reverence and adoration that’s truly due to the glory of God displayed in the face of Jesus Christ (II Corinthians 4:6). I think Christianity should be more about a relationship with our Lord than about your relationship with some book. Looking for what is of value in PFAL is like looking for what is valuable in counterfeit money. Counterfeit money looks like real money but has deleterious side effects – like reducing the value of real money, causing inflation, and losses to citizens and businesses; it hurts the economy because it’s not based on something of value but on deception. A lie ! It is the illusion of resources. But there’s nothing to back up those fake bills. PFAL and TWI-doctrine is an illusion of resources – lots of promises…lots of claims about what PFAL can do for you…but there’s nothing to back it up…God is not a genie-in-the-PFAL bottle, to be at your beck and call. That’s all I’ve got for now, Grease Spotters have a good night, sleep tight, and don’t let the emoticons bite.

Hi Grease Spotters, I wanted to revisit my post after some things I read on another thread. Recently on a couple of questions thread, Rocky had a great post with some fascinating links that addressed the question “are humans fundamentally good or bad?” here are partial excerpts from those links: "Fundamentally speaking, are humans good or bad? It's a question that has repeatedly been asked throughout humanity. For thousands of years, philosophers have debated whether we have a basically good nature that is corrupted by society, or a basically bad nature that is kept in check by society. Psychology has uncovered some evidence which might give the old debate a twist. One way of asking about our most fundamental characteristics is to look at babies. Babies' minds are a wonderful showcase for human nature. Babies are humans with the absolute minimum of cultural influence – they don't have many friends, have never been to school and haven't read any books. They can't even control their own bowels, let alone speak the language, so their minds are as close to innocent as a human mind can get. The only problem is that the lack of language makes it tricky to gauge their opinions. Normally we ask people to take part in experiments, giving them instructions or asking them to answer questions, both of which require language. Babies may be cuter to work with, but they are not known for their obedience. What's a curious psychologist to do? Fortunately, you don't necessarily have to speak to reveal your opinions. Babies will reach for things they want or like, and they will tend to look longer at things that surprise them. Ingenious experiments carried out at Yale University (see also Yale abstract excerpt and link below) in the US used these measures to look at babies' minds. Their results suggest that even the youngest humans have a sense of right and wrong, and, furthermore, an instinct to prefer good over evil"...from a BBC.com article == == == == the Yale abstract: "The capacity to evaluate other people is essential for navigating the social world. Humans must be able to assess the actions and intentions of the people around them, and make accurate decisions about who is friend and who is foe, who is an appropriate social partner and who is not. Indeed, all social animals benefit from the capacity to identify individual conspecifics that may help them, and to distinguish these individuals from others that may harm them. Human adults evaluate people rapidly and automatically on the basis of both behaviour and physical features1,2,3,4,5,6, but the ontogenetic origins and development of this capacity are not well understood. Here we show that 6- and 10-month-old infants take into account an individual’s actions towards others in evaluating that individual as appealing or aversive: infants prefer an individual who helps another to one who hinders another, prefer a helping individual to a neutral individual, and prefer a neutral individual to a hindering individual. These findings constitute evidence that preverbal infants assess individuals on the basis of their behaviour towards others. This capacity may serve as the foundation for moral thought and action, and its early developmental emergence supports the view that social evaluation is a biological adaptation."...from Yale abstract link == == == == == In my above comment (way up there at that top of this post ) I tried to summarize...and perhaps refocus this thread…in my opinion - whether you believe the conscience was something a higher power endowed us with or that it was simply a function that developed in the evolutionary process - I think it is safe to say that the conscience is something innate to our makeup and furthermore from those links one possible inference we could make is that the conscience may initially be already setup…preprogrammed, if you will…to act as a guide – to give one a moral sense of what is right or wrong. In considering another insidious aspect of the mindset that TWI promoted and how it tended to sabotage a follower’s conscience, one particular passage usually comes to mind: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron… I Timothy 4: 1, 2 KJV One commentary on that passage really dramatizes the destruction of the conscience by the cauterizing agent of hypocrisy: "Having their conscience seared with a hot iron - The allusion here is doubtless to the effect of applying a hot iron to the skin. The cauterized part becomes rigid and hard, and is dead to sensibility. So with the conscience of those referred to. It has the same relation to a conscience that is sensitive and quick in its decisions that a cauterized part of the body has to a thin, delicate, and sensitive skin. Such a conscience exists in a mind that will practice delusion without concern; that will carry on a vast system of fraud without wincing; that will incarcerate, scourge, or burn the innocent without compassion; and that will practice gross enormities, and indulge in sensual gratifications under the mask of piety." from Barnes' Notes on the Bible

I agree - when someone says they “like learning “ but continues to avoid direct questions about their ideas, thesis, or whatever it is that they keep harping about ...and besides that, if the person also comes across as convinced they are so right - I tend to think it’s all a pretense...or decoy to entice other posters into some convoluted mess of logical fallacies. On a separate thought now...I found an interesting link on Definitions of learning

A really great post, Rocky !!!! That Yale link is fascinating!!!! Awhile back I revisited an old thread I started called TWI’s Sedative to the Conscience - there was a poster or two that argued that basically the conscience was nothing more than what we have been taught what’s right or wrong. My last comment on that thread summarized...and perhaps refocused the thread to state that in my opinion - whether you believe the conscience was something a higher power endowed us with or that it was simply a function that developed in the evolutionary process - I think it is safe to say that the conscience is something innate to our makeup - and that one insidious aspect of the mindset that TWI promoted was how it tended to sabotage a follower’s conscience. Rocky, if you have time at some point - could you repost your post & link on that thread.

Yes that sort of goes along the line I was thinking... something else to think about: if ALL men and women were that unreliable in conveying a message , if ALL were such complete liars - then why did God choose certain ones to write the scriptures? I would infer from that - there have been - and always will be, people - imperfect, fallible humans who are capable of living honest and upright lives; that’s what lends impact to anyone’s words - when they walk the talk - like the impact that Paul’s words, power and example had that’s mentioned in I Thessalonians 1

good post Rocky ! The ESV renders Psalm 119: 11 as follows: I said in my alarm, All mankind are liars…Psalm 116: 11 ESV Reading the context, it appears to me that the psalmist said this out of great distress – and I think he may have succumbed to a cognitive distortion – which may simply be one of the “ways that our mind convinces us of something that isn’t really true. These inaccurate thoughts are usually used to reinforce negative thinking or emotions — telling ourselves things that sound rational and accurate, but really only serve to keep us feeling bad about ourselves.” (from above link) Do people lie sometimes? Sure. And some folks have a tendency to lie more than others. Like wierwille – he sure went on and on about his concern for the integrity and accuracy of “The Word” in PFAL…yeah, for someone who was an unabashed plagiarist I guess personal integrity or accuracy over where he got his ideas from wasn’t that big a deal. I think the mindset reinforced by The Way International was prone to a lot of cognitive distortions – which was one of the ways they exercised a lot of control over folks…lies of entrapment!

To determine if another person is honest- I think it’s like credibility or trust - they are something to be earned.

I’ve often thought about TWI’s giving = receiving principle that they pushed...perhaps with the expectation they often suggested i think it may have been more along the lines of giving to get - so then it’s really not giving but trading - a barter system.

I don’t think this discussion has really been about if “the word” works or not...or even if one’s personal application of “the word” works or not... It’s just my opinion but it looks to me like this thread (as well as some other threads ) involving a certain poster has been more about what does NOT work in a discussion - things like dishonesty, logical fallacies, changing the subject, dodging questions, etc. - which many Grease Spotters have tried to point out and even assist that certain poster so that there is clarification on exactly what his point is.

Indoctrination: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically; as Wikipedia says "the precise boundary between education and indoctrination often lies in the eye of the beholder. Some distinguish indoctrination from education on the basis that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned. As such the term may be used pejoratively or as a buzz word, often in the context of political opinions, theology, religious dogma or anti-religious convictions".…I think a few good examples of an indoctrination process are PFAL , as well as the other classes and the various training programs like the way corps, WOW, and others. Critical thinking: the objective analysis of facts to form a judgment. The process generally includes the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis or evaluation of factual evidence. Critical thinking is akin to the scientific method , which is comprised of various techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge, and is based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. Perhaps much of the scientific method could be summarized as a disciplined analysis through observation and experimentation. Grease Spot Café has many good examples of folks who have observed and experienced the enormous amount of falsehoods, lies, deception, manipulation, coercion, and destruction in anything that The Way International has ever had to offer. PFAL is a big sedative…an insidious process to get students to let down their guard and absorb the lies of a con artist with intentions to plunder the lives of followers…PFAL it’s like roofies for the soul.

Hey Grease Spotters, I just have to say, it’s almost comical to see someone claim wierwille is not their hero and yet in the same paragraph whitewash wierwille (aka the plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… drunkard) so as to suggest he’s God’s chosen vessel “to deliver His Word to us sinners.” How nauseating and illogical is that ?! ...It would be counterproductive to all the work God did through Jesus Christ ! I mean…really? God made a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and drunkard - His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us…that’s not how God works! take for example: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God…I Corinthians 6: 9-11 ESV You know, I understand that we’re all sinners – we’re human - - imperfect - - but what about all those verses that talk about Christians forsaking their sinful habits…we're not just sinners now - - we're redeemed sinners - and God expects us to act like it! Like in the above passage quoted – it notes in verse 11 "and such WERE some of you…” – past tense. wierwille THE hypocrite was an unrepentant sinner – a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and a drunkard until the day he died...folks that want to put wierwille on the same plane as any of those who wrote the scriptures need to show chapter and verse where God authorizes an unrepentant willful unconscionable sinner to deliver his message to believers. Show me anywhere in the Bible where God endorsed hypocrites ! talk about the more redundant lie...we've seen this time and again on various threads - wierwille-admirers intent on whitewashing the hypocrite! Geez Louise ! promote wierwille as an authorized agent to deliver God’s message?! ...I guess a person’s hero-picker could be broken if it’s not already jacked-up with some troll-agenda or got sucked into the black hole of wierwille’s delusion…regardless I would recommend they seek professional counseling…cuz that’s just flat out weird to encourage folks to follow a sick fvck like wierwille…I'm starting to think this thread is about the growing pain of the wierwille-obsessed. == == == == a side note to any folks still in TWI, if any of this makes sense to you – then get out NOW ! Do not pass the cornucopia. Get out now and don’t look back. What are you waiting for? Do you expect Jesus Christ to personally knock you off your WOW-mobile? It’s a lot less painful or embarrassing to take heed of the light being shed on TWI’s dark underbelly by Grease Spot Café. The Way International's dark legacy will continue to gnaw at your soul and render you totally ineffective to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. Do not fvck with toxic doctrine & practice…tell your cult-leadership they can kiss your a$$ goodbye. nuff said…love & peace

Great post, Penworks ! Your line “I think it's a miracle any of us are here and able to compose a complete sentence.” Made me think of the time I went to a professional counselor…this was years after leaving TWI…I kinda laugh about it now – in our first session I was spewing out in a stream-of-consciousness style all the pent up emotions, frustrations, mental baggage, toxic attitudes and memories, regrets, etc. accumulated from my youth before, during and after my time of TWI involvement - - right up to the present…when I finally stopped, I figured he wouldn’t know where to begin to sort out my incoherent mess but to my surprise the first words out of the counselor’s mouth were “you’ve got to stop beating yourself up over all that stuff.” Of course, he had a lot more very helpful methods to offer in the following sessions - - but I think those first words of his gave me an underlying theme for any therapy – you have to have a healthy attitude as you work things out…and don’t beat yourself up over anything while you're working things out. And I think therapy to relieve or heal something is always a lot more work than routine maintenance of health…walking every day is easy as part of a routine to maintain health…therapy to flex and strengthen the body after you’ve broken a leg is a lot of hard work.

I chose “none of the above” . Though some of the other reasons listed may have helped to push me over the edge - I am certain the driving force behind my decision to get involved with The Way International was (and still is , i might add) some goofy spiritual or philosophical quest; so when I saw the claim on the back of the PFAL sign-up card “enables you to separate truth from error “ I was all in.

Waysider an Twinky both make some very important points! I just wanted to add my 2 cents .... Regarding the verse Twinky referenced (I’m using the ESV of I Thessalonians 5:21 ) “but test everything; hold fast what is good.” is some good practical advice - - and in my opinion it’s talking about developing critical thinking skills... but I have noticed that scriptural advice doesn’t work very well if certain folks insist on using the twisted doctrine, practice and frame of thought of an incompetent plagiarist (wierwille) as a yardstick to check anything.... the PFAL / wierwille yardstick is a very malleable measuring device: the Bible says committing adultery is sin - but with wierwille’s self-adjusting yardstick you’ll find it doesn’t really measure up to sin because it falls somewhere between “anything done in the love of god is ok” and “technically all the women of the kingdom belong to the king / cult-leader.” And there’s another sin-adaptive tool forged in wierwille’s delusional factory: one can always ignore the seriousness of any sin by simply declaring it “broken fellowship”. ...”yeah, no big deal...no serious harm done to anyone - just a temporary lapse in my really tight relationship with God”... I think wading thru PFAL to sort out what’s useful is a waste of time and would take too much work...and I don’t care for some of the stuff he stole from others anyway....like Bullinger’s ultra-dispensationalism (which ignores the importance of the Gospels and promotes an absent Christ) or BG Leonard’s Holy Spirit class - cuz the only thing I ever saw in TWI was a bunch of folks faking the utterance manifestations - never witnessed anyone “operating” the revelation or power manifestations - - you can’t fake those!...besides now I’m a cessationist anyway - until it’s PROVEN otherwise. ....a lot of wierwille’s stuff is geared to suppressing critical thinking and lends support to an abusive and manipulative cult with copious amounts of feel-good pablum peppered throughout to help mask the symptoms one experiences while being in an abusive and manipulative cult. Sorry to be so blunt - but I’m not a big fan of beating around the bush or coddling anyone who is an apparent huge admirer of wierwille and his bull$hit.