T-Bone

I think it’s very revealing of wierwille’s tendencies to control things and make money, that he did not encourage TWI followers to do the same after taking his “own” PFAL class - plagiarized from multiple sources.. ..any place where I served we were always directed to get people signed up for the class...god forbid we should ever loan or give them one of the books from the class - let alone teach them all that stuff on our own.

Barring the claims that one has hung out with historians, sociologists, theoretical physicists and the like....and in the spirit of one-upmanship claim to have built a crude time machine - - I was wondering what methods you employed that provided you the ability of “seeing clearly” all that .

Great points, Skyrider ! Yeah wierwille may have been incompetent in a lot of things…but I think he was adept at harnessing…corralling…looking for the right word - - maybe hijacking the goals, skills, and talents of others via an indoctrination program…and there is something to be said for wierwille’s quote in Lifelines – nothing happens without leadership - - in light of that I found an interesting article on leadership - - Can Bad People be Good Leaders ? an excerpt from the article: “Most definitions of leadership include two elements. Leadership involves both getting people to work together and the pursuit of some common purpose or goal. Superficial responses to the question in the title of this column respond by evaluating only the purpose. Mother Teresa was a good leader; Hitler was a bad leader. This judgement has nothing to do with our knowledge or evaluation of their leadership styles. Rather, it is a moral judgement of the goals they pursued. But beyond evaluating the purpose, we need to understand the process of leadership. Even in the pursuit of objectives we agree are worthwhile, we know that there can be a difference significant enough between Leader A and Leader B to warrant moral distinctions. Success is part of the equation. Machiavelli equated good leadership with strong leadership, rationalizing any casualties in the process with a type of ends-justifying-the-means philosophy. Good leadership involves something more than the successful achievement of worthwhile ends. The how of leadership is a factor in the equation.”

Holy cow ! we’re at six pages now…I looked at her profile and noticed citygirl99 hasn’t logged on to Grease Spot since she first started this thread on February 10th…I have this picture of her being flabbergasted when she returns and sees all this and she’ll say “Geez, all I did was ask two simple questions.” seriously though - I have really enjoyed this thread...thanks for asking those questions, citygirl99 !

Also from the Police Files: Domestic disturbance at the Tarts residence; Pop-Tarts was very upset with Mom-Tarts for dressing their daughter like a little tart.

Mike, I think you’re just talking through your hat...can you provide chapter and verse that shows the prohibition to steal (which by the way, is one of the 10 commandments- way back there in Exodus 20:15) being suspended if and when a thieving believer declares “share and share alike” ? for that matter, can you provide chapter and verse that says in God’s Family it’s share and share alike? I don’t buy your argument...makes no sense to me as I’m thinking of the community of believers in both the Old and New Testament times / cultures. if you read the accounts in Acts (Acts 4 & 5) that touch on this - you’ll find that giving / sharing was not obligatory, that folks still had property rights - and even if they sold their property it was their own prerogative as to what to do with the money from the sale.... wealth was not redistributed as in communism or socialism - but funds collected were given to those IN NEED.

According to Wikipedia standing on the shoulders of giants has been attributed to several people and used by many but its basic meaning is “discovering truth by building on previous discoveries". Think of the advancements that have been made in the sciences, medicine, technology, etc. and how they continue to move forward at a brisk pace. Hold that thought and check out this article on why science is changing an excerpt : “Science changes due to several factors including technological innovations, societal concerns and increases of knowledge. Scientific information expands as humans disseminate research through peer-reviewed publications, collaborate on new projects and regulate studies through legislation… Modern science expands its knowledge base when scientists review one another's research. That way, the scientific community checks itself by preventing rogue theories from becoming mainstream. When researchers have similar interests, experts collaborate on future projects to further scientific goals. In some instances like embryonic stem cell research, legislation and societal concerns can dictate how analysts move forward with new endeavors.” == == == Note several factors in the above that are missing in wierwille’s body of work: Disseminate research through peer-reviewed publications; wierwille’s books were promoted in a closed market – The Way Bookstore, "conveniently set up at the back of our PFAL class" – there was no peer-review – if his stuff was reviewed by real scholars he would have been exposed as a plagiarist...a fraud !!! Experts collaborate on projects; The experts that wierwille “collaborated” with - if you want to call it that - were actually the sources he plagiarized. Societal concerns dictating how to move forward with new endeavors; The social concerns that wierwille had were how to manipulate and exploit his cult following. perhaps wierwille had a vision of how much farther he could go if he just claimed he stood on god’s shoulders

So how is what wierwille did NOT stealing and lying? Why couldn’t he have quoted a source giving the proper citation that would have been the honest thing to do; so what you're telling me, Mike is that God endorses lying and stealing. an excerpt from that citation link asks an important question – “Doesn't citing make my work seem less original? Not at all. On the contrary, citing sources actually helps your reader distinguish your ideas from those of your sources. This will actually emphasize the originality of your own work. “ == == == == I think wierwille was so academically incompetent he actually introduced errors…his nonsensical twist on Bullinger’s chapter on keys to interpreting the Bible that he plagiarized was that the Bible interprets itself. Using II Peter 1:20, 21 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” ...wierwille emphatically claims that this means either no interpretation is possible or the Bible must interpret itself...so the Bible interprets itself? Really??!! chapter and verse please!…Bullinger said these verses in II Peter address the origin of scripture and not the interpretation of scripture. How can a collection of books written over the span of thousands of years, by many different authors, in several ancient languages, in various cultures interpret explain, translate, or bring out the meaning of itself? My take on wierwille’s nonsense was that it was one of the many deceitful tricks he used to lead folks astray and buy into his delusion of greatness – that he was God’s mouthpiece – had more of the rightly divided word than anyone else…yeah, some “fine job” he did of getting the error out of his plagiarized sources...I tend to think he usually made matters worse... He had a great knack for obfuscating things to frustrate folks’ attempts at critical thinking – he probably banked on wearing people down, so after awhile they just gave up on any real thinking and merely absorbed without question his bull$hit.

oh yeah - Tonto and I were in awe of snowboarders and skiers - it's crazy when they're airborne and do all kinds of gyroscopic spins all over the place !

Yeah the sarcastically redefined title of “doctor “ according to his plagiaristic abuse - is “doctor-it-up” wierwille .... Dat’s riiiiight....just look it up in “The Lexicon for Folks Who are Really Really Really Disgusted with wierwille’s Bull$hit” doctor-it-up: To alter, and perhaps falsify, something in an attempt to improve his credibility.

Yup - and the indoctrination program was designed to “clean your clock”....I.e. a mental and physical beating!

Great posts, Skyrider and ChockFull ! I know it’s been said – and my common sense would agree – no one ever knowingly joins a cult… I got involved in ’74, and like you said it was a sweet time of a simple Christian lifestyle for me… what might be a good metaphor for my 12 years of involvement with TWI is the boiling frog fable ...Early on I was not aware of the growing threat behind the Christian mask…but as time went on – the cult’s subtle powers of manipulation and exploitation extended... or should I say intruded further and further into my life…and it wasn’t until I started questioning things in ’86 that I began to suspect there might be a mask - - that something was covering the real problem or problems. I am so thankful there’s a place like Grease Spot - where unmasking a cult is a group effort !

Actually one of several models I’ve been using (ever since I came to Grease Spot some 12 years ago) is a biblical model – where my reference points are the passages that instruct Christians on how to spot a false prophet, a false teacher, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, a religious hypocrite, etc. other conceptual models are just as valid to help one know and understand how cults and cult leaders work – such as a psychological approach, or sociological, intellectual, historical just to name a few. some of these approaches can be observed by the examples / links within my earlier post (see quoted below) of truly hard-hitting posters who are uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts: Your claim of Grease Spotters using a “pure evil” model often hits me as nothing more than a straw man fallacy – where a person distorts, exaggerates or misrepresents what others have said in an effort to make it easier for the person to refute it all. But I think I understand what you’re saying about missing the complexities of the bigger picture (and I’ll get to that in a minute) – but what I think you’re missing is how really simple this process of discernment is: Matthew 7 on how to properly judge others and not being hypocritical, identifying false prophets by their fruit, and identifying true followers of the Lord. Matthew 23 talks about the ways of religious hypocrites, the double standard they employ. II Peter 2 talks about false prophets and teachers who use insidious doctrines, follow their sensualities and exploit their followers. == == == Complexities: Nowhere in scripture is the Christian ever encouraged to look for and cling to any of the supposedly good things of these false teachers and hypocrites. Now I will say this – I think some Christians have a hard time seeing the hypocrisy of wierwille because of their fondness for scripture – especially if PFAL / wierwille first introduced them to the Bible and/or serious Bible study…I can relate to that – being raised Roman Catholic, my experience was mostly with religious ceremony, Latin phrases, no knowledge of what was in the Bible / zero doctrine unless you count catechism… For me, PFAL was like taking swimming lessons from a really bad instructor; wierwille didn’t really know how to swim but I guess his display of overconfidence encouraged me to jump in the pool – after the class I enjoyed reading the Bible – used to read it all the way through several times a year…but if PFAL was swimming lessons – then life is the actual test to see if you can sink or swim…and honestly it was pretty much sink for most of my TWI involvement… I say that because a doctrine or theory may sound really cool but it’s not really worth much until it’s put into practice – when the rubber meets the road. You know – does the theory work? I think those claims of benefits on the back of the PFAL green sign-up card were just that - claims…they didn’t really work…when the rubber meets the road - it goes nowhere …a lot of the stuff promised in PFAL kinda makes me think of the dead-man’s float I learned at day camp (CYO Day Camp - - oh boy! ). The fact that they called it the DEAD man’s float still bothers me to this day…does that mean the poor guy didn’t learn to swim? ... but anyway I digress…the dead-man’s float is taught to beginning swimmers – you get in a prone floating position – face down in the water – your legs are extended back and your arms forward…and you just float…you don’t go anyway. Now you can imagine yourself as a great swimmer but the dead-man’s float will never win a gold medal in the Olympics…maybe in curling…if you were the stone and liked getting pushed around. Jesus addressed the issue of hypocrisy: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice… Matthew 23: 1-3 ESV …And I think this is where a lot of TWI followers act as if they are mentally incapacitated if someone challenges wierwille’s man-of-god persona. To a lot of the general public, wierwille’s sermon on the love of God / I Corinthians 13 is solid gold and it is inconceivable to them that wierwille had a double standard going on...in that regard you might want to check out a certain post on how was your identity changed thread ....the essence of what he taught and modeled by example to the way corps was that the Bible’s moral code of things like don’t steal, don’t lie, don’t commit adultery really only applies to the spiritually immature; you don’t hear about that in PFAL – where in an early session he makes a big deal over the two great commandments – love God and neighbor. Another thing about complexities and I think you have a valid point there, Mike - i agree - we should look at the good....and the bad...and all points in between – in trying to sort through my TWI experience – I think it is essential to survival that I have a healthy attitude while in the process of sorting it all out. That’s learning to accept it all – the good and bad experiences, successes, failures, insights, emotions, etc. as part of life. A great thread to check out is cult survivors: the duality of life life is complex...and sometimes we want to shy away from the ugly uncomfortable awkward parts of reality...we want to cling to the familiar and the comfortable...but i think a healthy attitude looks at the whole enchilada...now that doesn't mean you have to eat it all at once ....take it one bite at a time ...and remember to let your food settle before you start thinking about desert - my mom taught me that... ...dear, Grease Spotters, love and peace…and have a good night.

I'll tell you what you missed - all the other red flags that wierwille was a delusional cult leader.

The reason I listed links to a few posters is so that you might get an idea of what someone’s hard-hitting style would actually look like - by example – in my opinion these folks are TRULY uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts…my intent wasn’t to challenge you to find another synonym for what you imagine your style is…my post was more along the lines of a reality check and not an increase-your-vocabulary exercise...take it for what it's worth - my tip on how to earn credibility.

Perhaps you might want to re-think your self-described “hard hitting style”; the adjective hard-hitting usually describes someone as being uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts; and I have NOT seen much of any of those qualities in your posts. As examples of some hard-hitting posters being uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts, you might want to check out these posts: The wierwille legacy who will write the book? TWI began its independent undeertaking Dec 19 1957 vpw truths lies reasons motives original letter sent to TWI by top leaders leaving what is the purpose of da corps training The Way - Living in Wonderland vp and me in wonderland a vpw historical timeline == == == == I’m trying to be as respectful as possible when I say this - what might help to keep your “freight train” on track and have some impact to gain credibility is to do a better job at being honest – like: don’t fabricate stories to impress others…answer direct questions…stay on point if you have something to contribute instead of changing the subject or focus of a discussion…don’t make claims without backing them up…and by all means DO express your opinions and be respectful of other folks’ opinions.

And remember the rule for font size: small fonts are for small minds…big fonts are for big minds…and I guess medium fonts are for communicating with the minds of the dead.

And if the state no longer uses the electric chair Twinky can lead in the re-VOLT...

And to make matters worse they put him in a Duracell ...

I mean...really ????!!!! The reason I'm so upset is that I don't think Curling should be an Olympic sport.

I hope no one takes this the wrong way - - I just found this so funny Gold Star joined Grease Spot about an hour ago…comes to this thread…and for their FIRST post - I’m guessing this is just Gold Star’s startled reaction to Twinky’s post…”oh my!” anyway… welcome to Grease Spot, Gold Star uhm….it’s not always like this (whatever that means ) hope you stick around awhile and enjoy reading – and if you feel like it - share some too.

Skyrider your post is definitely ON topic - for a thread on lies that some folks try to keep alive to defend wierwille

Oh yeah...and I guess these scientists also minored in horticulture.... yeah - that’s the ticket! Hmmmmmm...money is made from paper - paper comes from trees - cross a polygraph expert with a horticulturalist and what do you get ? A counterfeit money detector....ba dum bum...I’m here all week folks i am a leaf i am a leaf on a lying tree

Really ?!?! you say "The reason I constructed home made lie detectors was so I could hook them up to the leaves of common house plants." that's totally different from the reason you gave in an earlier post ( see below) where you said "This thread is fascinating to me. Before my involvement with the ministry I was on fire with researching the phenomenon of lying. I mean even to the point of making crude lie detectors at home. I was in touch with scientists who were top polygraph experts." Let me guess...did you think your plants were lying to you? geez Louise - I now had to draw a number 22 on my bull$hit detector - and I think you've hit the daily double

Do you have an affinity for discredited people? you seem to be attracted to them