T-Bone

Yes…I’m wondering if any questions about Mike’s position should be directed to Twinky - - just to save time.

Sorry Mike, but I think you are obfuscating the simplicity of the Bible; I believe if God communicated his Word - then what more is needed then to simply believe it? I think one can infer from many passages that God does indeed help seekers to get a better understanding of his Word... That is the whole idea behind the following passages: 16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own...John 7:16, 17 NIV Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this. II Timothy 2:7 NIV The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding...Proverbs 9:10 NIV The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple. ...Psalm 119:130 KJV 13 For we write you nothing other than what you read and understand [there is no double meaning in what we say]. And I hope you will [accurately] understand [divine things] until the end; 14 just as you have [already] partially understood us, [and one day will recognize] that you can be proud of us just as we are of you, in the day of our Lord Jesus...II Corinthians 1: 13, 14 Amplified Mike, don’t over complicate it! The Word is right there in plain sight ! No one needs a secret decoder ring !

Hey Mike, i was wondering if you had a chance yet to read Penworks’ Undertow book

Some great points there, Grace ! …and you’ve touched on something that resonates big time with me about being human…ya know it doesn’t happen as often as it probably should…but sometimes when drafting a post for Grease Spot or mulling over something someone said on Grease Spot - every once and a great while I will actually get my head out of my a$$... translation: when I realize we are all human beings…all bozos on the same bus…meaning no one is exempt from this weird and bizarre experience called the human condition…that’s when my theology and philosophical musings take a back seat (or I guess goes to the back of the bus ) and I just enjoy connecting with other human beings…times like that I probably shock some folks when I get all apologetic…sorry about that - - oops there I go again …(T-Bone, say “good night, Grace”) Good night, Grace

Well, I don’t have any real problem with your viewpoint either…and perhaps we’re on more converging lines of thought rather than in some lockstep synchronization fashion (whatever the hell that is )…I too see a venerable coherency in scripture – though it may not be completely across the board like you do…I mean, without going into every single little doctrinal detail AND nuanced differences of a person’s viewpoint – I tend to think overall, most serious Bible students do not have much difficulty in arranging the great truths of the Bible when it speaks of sin, redemption, prayer, the person of Jesus Christ, etc. in a fairly self-consistent fashion – which may not be saying much since we’ve all witnessed how someone can make the Bible say anything they want …however…stepping it up a notch or two in the discipline of systematic theology I believe that is a noble endeavor by scholars to formulate an orderly, rational, and coherent account of the doctrines of the Christian faith. That this can even be done may not be a big clincher for some folks but I believe it does testify to the divine inspiration of scripture. I also agree with you that the Bible does map out a lot of things that have been and are and will be - - maybe not always in easily comprehensible ways. Now in the way that it’s “framed” - we may differ somewhat in how to interpret what it says. Is that literal, symbolic, is that something they adapted or reinterpreted, or "borrowed" from what was currently known? I dunno - that's a whole other topic to discuss...but that is part of the "framing" - it may be a spiritual truth never revealed before but do you think it's also possible it could be "ensconced" within these rough...imperfect...thoroughly human documents of the ancient world? ...I believe the form of writing used in the Bible is observational – a legitimate form in the ancient world. Observational writing tends to take the reader on the same journey that the writer experienced...I think that's how it's capable of relating to us today.

Hi Mike, It’s all a matter of perspective …speaking for myself – since I left TWI in ’86, I have settled into something sort of positive…it is practical, helpful, and constructive – it’s a self-directed journey…I have been free to explore many paths – whether philosophical, theological, social, whimsical or whatever to plumb the depths of my existence…a simple pursuit to give my life meaning… I think people are complicated beings - - and so I tend to think we all go through some type of elaborate evolving convoluted mapping out process to navigate through life. Regarding my Grease Spot posts - what you may think is the essential focus of my life - or you may believe that this is all I ever think about - is really nothing more than me LOOKING BACK to a specific point in the space-time continuum of my life from the reference point of where I am now…I think being retrospective is something we all do from time to time...that’s how we learn…that’s how we grow. I certainly don’t celebrate the errors, abuses, exploitation, confusion and frustrations I experienced while I was in TWI – but like any troubling or traumatic aspect of one’s life all that has made me more sensitive to the influences and issues that brought on all that stuff. perhaps one of the subtle underlying messages on Grease Spot is that there’s a lot more options available during your journey in life. The things of PFAL is certainly one option - but I think the general consensus here is that it’s not a very helpful, practical or constructive option...just saying why limit yourself to one very restrictive option. Not like I’m perfect now or got all that figured out or I’m over it – but I feel it’s helpful, practical, and constructive to experience the give-and-take on Grease Spot – I get a lot of good things out of the experience and I hope my contribution might do the same for others. Believe it or not, I do understand what you say about thinking there’s something good in PFAL. Just allow me the freedom to pick and choose that and to utilize it the way I want to. For instance, the keys to the interpretation of the Bible – yes, it was something wierwille plagiarized from Bullinger – but it’s not like Bullinger - or wierwille or PFAL is the final authority on interpreting the Bible or that I agree with a dogmatic view of there being only one possible interpretation of scripture. I mean, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that you might want to better understand a document written in ancient times / cultures by looking into the context, overall usage of words, original languages, historical and cultural context, blah blah blah - yeah all that - but maybe try to understand things from their ancient worldview to grasp the essence of the message and what particular issue are they addressing in what they say and do. fyi - it's not a book about science or history or geography - though you may get an idea of the writers' limited and imperfect view of the world back then. Not like we've got everything figured out now in this modern age - science, technology, knowledge is always changing, exploring, growing...my approach to the Bible is maybe along the lines of how I look at my past as I said earlier. What if the Bible is part of a map showing a path of a particular journey of faith? I see folks dealing with the same basic issues of the human condition - and here I am in the present time trying to relate to how they dealt with all that...maybe I'll learn something. I think Bullinger and wierwille got locked into a very literal…fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible…I look at the Bible as sort of a product of the times in which it was written…that’s one of the things I think wierwille ignored – I don’t think he realized the Bible and modern man spoke two different “languages” – so he would often squeeze, crunch and mangle science, philosophy or any other modern disciplines to fit into an ancient template…I won’t say the Bible is outmoded – like it’s obsolete or no longer practical... ...I just think in our interpretation of it we should recognize the humanness of scripture – not as another key to how to interpret any particular part – but maybe as an attitude we should adopt when we approach scripture…as something inspired of God – yes – but as something we can relate to since it was written by people - it's asking how did they deal with this particular issue and will that work for me? Whether one views Jesus as human or divine or a combination thereof – I think people relate to him the same way. We look past the cultural setting and accumulated world knowledge of that time and look for what Jesus’ words, actions, and life mean for us today.

Spectrum - you crack me up - I love it ! Thanks Rocky !

Thanks for sharing that, DWBH one of my favorite film critics and writers is Roger Ebert (he passed away in 2013) had some good things to say about AA in his book and he was very candid about his struggle and recovery from alcoholism Life Itself: A Memoir and there is an interesting related article on the website that still bears his name My Name is Roger and I'm an Alcoholic here’s an interesting excerpt: “* Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. * Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand Him. The God word. The critics never quote the words "as we understood God." Nobody in A.A. cares how you understand him, and would never tell you how you should understand him. I went to a few meetings of "4A" ("Alcoholics and Agnostics in A.A."), but they spent too much time talking about God. The important thing is not how you define a Higher Power. The important thing is that you don't consider yourself to be your own Higher Power, because your own best thinking found your bottom for you. One sweet lady said her higher power was a radiator in the Mustard Seed, "because when I see it, I know I'm sober." “ I love how Roger explains it’s NOT important how you define a Higher Power – the critical thing is that you don’t consider yourself to be your own Higher Power…I think one of the subtle influences of TWI was that it instilled in me a little bit of a god complex...I'm not kidding! I used to think if I came away from a teaching or some pump-you-up meeting feeling all superior in a if-god-be-for-me-who-can-be-against-me kinda way then "I really got delivered at that meeting" - that's gotta be like an event horizon for the god complex state of mind or something i dunno...gosh we really weren't a very humble bunch of folks back then now were we? …I swear the older I get or is it the more distance I put between me and a certain mindset I used to have – maybe it’s a combination of the two ( I’ve been experiencing life in a REAL world since ’86) - that I don’t get all hung up in how someone defines God…even wonder if I’m developing some “Christian agnostic” tendencies – I mean I’m familiar with the basic tenets of the faith…I’m conversant with basic theology…I enjoy reading a number of different translations – but beyond that…beyond the five senses – I’m not sure of anything…yeah God and the cosmos got a WHOLE LOT BIGGER after I left The Way International. One of the reasons I’m glad I’m not in TWI anymore is that I don’t have to pretend I’m having such a deep personal relationship with God Almighty while I’m at Twig Coordinators meetings – gotta keep up appearances dontcha know

Hi Grease Spotters - and a great big warm welcome to newcomers! Personally I don’t buy into this “pure evil” model, a popular straw man argument used here and elsewhere by a certain poster. I usually lean heavily on a biblical model - how the Bible delineates the traits and tactics of false teachers, hypocrites, predators, exploitative “leaders”, etc. and especially take note in the passages that address these treacherous folks - you’ll see the Bible doesn’t cut them any slack or water down the criticism by saying look for the good in their life or work...I’m of the opinion the evil they do more or less nullifies anything of merit that’s not to say there was nothing to see that might be considered good - but it does make one wonder if anything - a teaching, a kind gesture, etc. was just for show, the bait in a trap or whatever to serve their hidden agenda; I tend to think they are all truly opportunists at heart if you ask me. Makes me think of the scandal of the Olympic physician Larry Nassar; don’t see a whole lot of folks standing up for him saying “but look at the good that he did...some of those YOUNG GIRLS he molested won Olympic metal.” Excuse me while I barf...sorry, but I can’t even fathom the empathetic disconnect if someone were to think like that.

Good points, Grace - that’s pretty much what I thought too…his post hits me as just another retread of defending wierwille (without actually mentioning his name, of course) – if you check out a list of fallacies I think the post has some of that argument from repetition quality to it with a good mix of faulty generalizations and red herrings for the benefit of newcomers perhaps a note of clarification on certain posts might help “this post is from the campaign to repaint the whited sepulcher”

Skyrider – that link on tree suckers was an interesting tie-in with the way tree – made me take another look at the word horti-CULT-ure …seriously though interesting info – it listed 2 reasons a tree might start growing suckers: because it’s under stress, or because a graft has failed…I must be in a silly and creative mood tonight cuz I was mentally juggling some of these ideas from your post and got to thinking of a literal way tree sucker – someone gullible or easily deceived by The Way International, and who is always under stress because they never receive any nourishing sap from the lying, thieving tree they are grafted to…I also like your line “and teach twig like it was 1974” – I’m inspired to re-write a Prince song: they say P’fal’s a big zero and Party over, but folks at the door So tonight I’m gonna teach twig like it’s 1974 (glad I don't get paid for my songwriting ) == == == == == == == == Spectrum 49 – I figured you’d appreciate an analogy from science...which reminds me, I hope you keep developing the interesting ideas in that paper you’ve shared here…Lot’s of great stuff in there – thanks for sharing it ! I think another deleterious effect of TWI’s gravitational pull was how the fascinating and unique ideas of thoughtful and creative folks were not appreciated and so weren’t allowed to “take off” within TWI's "universe" (could not break free of their gravitational pull)....there's a lesson in there somewhere - - don't let TWI keep you down Like I was explaining to Skyrider, sometimes I’ll play around with ideas – how the idea for this thread was formed - a while back I caught some TV show about supermassive black holes and I think Neil deGrasse Tyson was narrating some of it – fascinating stuff and read up some more on them after the show…one of the many interesting aspects of supermassive black holes is that they are integral to the development of a galaxy - matter of fact, one is at the center of our galaxy - see here and here ...then I started thinking free-form style – imagining the incredible forces these “big boys” exert on their galaxies…the power to influence…then to how ideas influence us and shape our belief system…makes me ask “what’s at the center of my world – the core of my beliefs?”…since I’ve left TWI and reawakened the curious and adventurous part of me I seem to have also developed an urge to reevaluate on a regular basis my belief system especially as it touches science and how I interpret the Bible…uhm…er…I don’t mean to alarm anyone right now - but it seems to be getting darker...as if I’m drifting toward the event horizon of a black hole - - no wait …it’s way passed my bedtime - - musta closed my eyes for a minute…sorry about that…time to go to bed…night all.

Just for the record - I’ve mentioned this before - the definition for “hard hitting” as often associated with tough journalists who do their job - is uncompromisingly direct and honest, especially in revealing unpalatable facts...so forgive me if I don’t consider your dodging and relentless promotion of a charlatan like wierwille as “hard hitting”...and honestly in my humble opinion that’s about as hard hitting as a wet noodle Especially when you often display a flair for distorting facts or simply re-imagining an “alternate truth or facts, or history” - revisionist style ! . and I find this odd too - when you said - “I've been at this a very long time, I was lucky to get a LOT of facts that none knew here, and I was sheltered from a lot of the BS of the Corps.” I tend to think the stories, incidents, facts as told by former corps, staff, WOWs, etc on Grease Spot are truly hard hitting - they reveal the dark underbelly of the charlatan ! so I’m not sure if that is the BS you’re talking about?

Skyrider, you’ve got that right ! Dads are a big deal in a child’s development…I think of my relationship with my Dad before TWI…my Dad was a medic in WWII and received 2 Purple Hearts…he suffered from PTSD ever since and I believe that contributed in part to the dysfunctionality in our family…He was not abusive, not an alcoholic, never fooled around on Mom, always provided for us, took us on vacations, taught me how to use tools, and turned me on to sci-fi movies after which we would philosophize about stuff. But Dad was always somewhat distant emotionally, often had nightmares – I could hear him down the hall from my bedroom – Mom would explain later “about the war”…which brings up other times when he would be watching a war movie on TV and Mom would get on him about “watching that stuff when you know it gives you nightmares”. But as I grew older and became influenced by the counterculture of the 60s – the emotional distance between Dad and me increased. I hope all this isn’t too far off topic – but I believe all that was part of what set me up to be attracted to wierwille and his cult; this was my vulnerability…I am very ashamed to confess this – but there were a few times when I remember wishing he could have been my father. I was taken by his charisma and warmth and how he seemed to really connect with people…ugh - gag ! now it just makes me wanna barf - that I would trade my wonderful, loyal, hardworking and loving Dad for some lying, thieving weasel. Well, I think I became a truly repentant prodigal son after dumping that fvcking fake “father-in-the-word” wierwille when I left TWI and for my “penance” worked on reconnecting with my Dad until he passed away – and you can tell Sister Dolorosa that has been one of the most enjoyable acts of repentance in the history of New York Catholic Boys. …again – hope the details of vulnerability relates to your thread.

Call me old fashion but I tend to think in courts of law, in business, in science, in history - the prevailing authority are the facts. As far as determining who are genuine spiritual leaders – and me being just your typical, dull, 5-senses oriented schlub, I guess I’d have to find out a few things. Like ask what religion do these supposed spiritual or religious leaders represent? Then review the basic tenets and sacred documents of that religion. Next look into the personal and professional life of that leader – the body of their work and the example they have set – looking to see if they have done the due diligence to actually achieve the status of being a genuine spiritual leader… …not like I have a whole lot of free time and would do that before the next ecclesiastic conference when clerics might get together to negotiate an official stance on whatever…I guess it has to do with the fact that I’ve been fooled before by one certain unabashed plagiarist, sexual predator and hypocrite…just sayin’.

The Way International is NOT a supermassive black hole – though they do exert a sneaky "gravitational force" that keeps trying to pull you back in. This thread is all about the deceitful and manipulative ways that TWI uses to get new recruits as well as the underhanded methods they employ to retain them. Anyone that gets within their sphere of influence might get sucked in if they are unaware of what hides behind the treacherous attraction. TWI is almost like a black hole a region of space-time exhibiting such strong gravitational effects that nothing — not even particles and electromagnetic radiation such as light— can escape from inside it. Once you are sucked in to a cult it’s usually harder than hell to get out. And even after you’re out it might take some time to unravel and abandon the complicated mindset and habit patterns…and if you still enjoy reading the Bible like I do - - there’s also those familiar little “pop-ups” that come to mind when reading certain passages – wierwille’s phrases that were practically ingrained in my head through repeatedly listening to the PFAL class. But it all begins nice and easy - there is the love-bombing, talking up the benefits of the class, the excitement of being part of something bigger than myself. Given enough time and circumstances, I think the newness…the romance or honeymoon fades away. A follower slowly awakens to what they really married into – a legalistic, abusive, deceptive, manipulative, and exploitative organization. Now a different set of “mysterious forces” come into play. Lest you become tempted to “turn your back on God” (aka the ministry that taught you “the word”), by this time The Way International has already taken the necessary steps to wring a lifetime commitment out of you. If there’s anything to the theory of graviton particles - which speculates that they mediate gravitational interaction - then perhaps TWI’s “graviton particles” are the subtle implications of certain teachings that lay the groundwork for fear, guilt, and a host of other manipulating mechanisms. They set up followers to be compliance oriented. Recently I was thinking about the love-bombing thread as well as the other manipulative tactics that The Way International used to rope people in. Coincidentally I was listening to (repeatedly…uh oh ) a cover of Muse’s 2006 song “Supermassive Black Hole” done by 2 Cellos and featuring Naya Rivera (known for her breakthrough role on Glee). I love the music – it’s addictive…and goes perfectly with the theme of the song…thundering overpowering instruments that portend some catastrophic event. The song is about a toxic relationship – the person realizes the attraction to someone else is mostly based on a bunch of lies – and the person has a fatalistic attitude about it – like the immense power of supermassive black holes that wield incredible influence over their galaxies – to get sucked in was inevitable…trapped in a toxic relationship - with no foreseeable way to escape. I usually focus on the instrumentation of a tune – but the more I listened to it I kept wondering what did they say in this line or that – so I googled the lyrics and You Tube and after much constellations I felt expired to write this post (take that Norm Crosby fans ). The more I looked over the words to the song the more I saw similarities to being in a manipulative cult. I thought this particular clip would be entertaining and helpful since it has the words across the bottom: I think the sentiment in this song is applicable to anyone who’s been in TWI for a while and has become aware of their tactics of deception and manipulation; as seen in some of the song’s phrases I’ll comment on: “…You caught me under false pretenses…the queen of the superficial...how long before you tell the truth” folks get sucked into TWI by the love-bombing , the sales pitches for supposed benefits of their classes, the fabricated stories of phenomena, exaggerated or embellished stories of success as well as the sweet veneer of Christianity. “how long before you let me go?” – the feeling of being trapped and thinking of TWI as almost like a custodian of my fate. Whatever they say will happen to me are the supposed consequences of my believing - something to be feared ...nice little trick though - it really was a self-imposed mental prison - but I was not aware that I was the only one that could let myself go free...I can't really leave until they say it's ok to do so...which they never will, of course...especially if you were in the way corps - it's a lifetime commitment to Christian service. “Ooh, you set my soul alight” – is an interesting choice of words; it can have a double meaning – perhaps the songwriter meant it as such to convey the twofold tension in the attraction – I dunno – just guessing here …anyway …the word “alight” could mean to set the soul on fire - to be filled with passion or have an immense desire to achieve something – I think of when I first got involved – I was naïve and idealistic ...thought I could change the world with what I knew from PFAL … but “alight” can also mean to settle down or perch – as if the soul was in flight – on a journey – but has now settled down inside this supermassive black hole…I can relate to that too. I believe I’m on a journey through life – and my time in TWI was an unanticipated detour…or maybe it was more like a layover…12 fvcking years sitting at a crummy two bit airport. “Glaciers melting in the dead of night and the superstars sucked into the supermassive” the inevitability of succumbing to overwhelming forces…whether it’s slow and almost imperceptible like glaciers melting…the honeymoon phase of cult involvement – personal boundaries are softened, personal preferences and goals are slowly dissipated - giving way to the greater good – i.e. what does the ministry need me to do?...- If you’ve entered one of their programs (The Way Corps, WOW, Fellow Laborers, etc.) the indoctrination process was a lot quicker - like a superstar being sucked into a supermassive black hole! As my father-in-law (who was in the Seabees) would often say when there was something that needed to be done or maybe he just wanted something done “get with the program”. Part of the indoctrination process of any of their programs also reinforced blind obedience..."going with the flow" is allowing gravity to take over...it's all downhill from there == == == == == == == Toward my later years in TWI, I think one of the strongest “gravitational pulls” that kept me in line was a fear of what would happen to me if I left…”tripped out”. Many of us have heard wierwille’s go-to passage for instilling fear in followers. In John 13 Jesus predicts his betrayal during an evening meal with the disciples, then “As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.” (verse 30) wierwille twisted the double meaning of “it was night” - stating unequivocally that the only alternative to the ministry that taught you the rightly divided word was oblivion...so when I thought of my future – I would never picture myself ever leaving the ministry. The possibility of tripping out was not an option as far as I was concerned. Thinking of a scenario like that was almost like entertaining thoughts of suicide. My life, my dreams, my identity, my hopes were all wrapped up in the ministry. I dare say, the opposite of what wierwille said may be closer to the truth. Wierwille/TWI ARE the oblivion - a supermassive black hole - once you are sucked in – you are unaware of reality…oblivious to what matters because you are stuck inside a grand delusion – wierwille’s delusion…a real oblivion – a realm that is void of truth and reality – a parasitic vacuum that sucks all the resources out of anything that gets within its gravitational pull. “Even light cannot escape” ? – well, I wouldn’t go that far in applying this analogy – but I will say this – thinking about wierwille’s scripture twisting to suit his own agenda - very little light or truth was able to escape his lips…and woe unto anyone who accepts his viewpoint…As Jesus once said “If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” (Matthew 6: 23). In other words, if you think wierwille has enlightened you – then you really are in a heap of supermassive darkness. New York Translation: you’re totally fvcked, dude ! One of the many great things about Grease Spot is that it truly is a light for those wanting to escape the dark netherworld of The Way International. Grease Spot tells the other side of the story…this has been another slice of my story…I was wondering if anyone else has anything to add…feel free to chime in…need a little direction? What was it that first got you thinking there might be a life for you beyond TWI? Besides any strong social bonds with family and friends in TWI – what was it that kept you from leaving when you first began to realize the ministry was not what it seemed? Were you ever afraid that bad things would happen and your life would fall apart if you left? If you’re still involved with TWI I would like to say there is still hope…there’s always hope…perhaps you’ve read things on other threads that resonate with you…have you thought about leaving? What is it that’s holding you back from taking the first few courageous steps to leave?

Welcome to Grease Spot, Less Than – I am sorry to hear about the loss of your Dad and the tension with your Mom. Family conflicts can be messy and complicated all by themselves and even more so when you have a cult in the mix – I think it may be because a cult has its own set of weird interpersonal dynamics – which gets superimposed…injected…mixed in with whatever particular dysfunctionalities are already present in a family - every family has them - - there is no “perfect” or “normal” family. On the anxiety / depression thing you brought up – I can relate on how I use to believe if I worked at renewing my mind, praying, reading the Bible, etc. I would be over my depression. I suffered from it before TWI – then while in TWI it eventually got worse (please refer to my previous paragraph – mental health issues and a cult are never a good mix). I finally went to a psychiatrist – even though I was wondering the same thing as you “what would I actually talk about?”. My first session was more like stream of consciousness writing – I was flitting from thing to thing – going over various incidents, worries, fears, people in my life, failures, decisions I made, etc. His great words of wisdom were “you’ve got to stop beating yourself up over all that stuff.” There were a lot more helpful discussions of details in the following sessions, of course and I found a great book to help me manage depression - it’s Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns ...The book gets into cognitive distortions which are "exaggerated or irrational thought patterns that are believed to perpetuate the effects of psychopathological states, especially depression and anxiety"…funny thing though – while I was reading this book I began to realize that there were a lot of cognitive distortions built into the mindset that The Way International encourages its followers to have. I think that’s some of what my psychiatrist was addressing when he told me to stop beating myself up over things…yeah I sort of got the idea that some of the mental habits I learned in TWI actually made me my own worst enemy, if you can believe that. Hope to see you around, check out the About the Way forum you’ll probably find some stories in there of folks you can relate to. And let me offer you a cup of our finest cappuccino.

Thanks for posting that Rocky - yeah I wish she went longer too. and it is so eerie how destructive cults use similar tactics: she talked about the cover-up and code of silence over an abusive uncle with her cousins; then going on to say how through that code of silence there’s the likelihood that the abuse or whatever extremely offensive behavior that is being covered up will have a trickle-down effect - in that some good people can wind up doing bad things. Yeah - I tend to think no matter how goody-two-shoes someone is - no one is impervious to the effect of standing knee deep in the hypocrisy of a religious cult - it’s gonna take its toll...it’s gonna wear you down.

Yeah I knew that...I was just using what you said as a springboard to launch my own superstring theory - how to tie together two threads using a common vibe in select particles of each thread... ...and hopefully it doesn’t turn into killing two threads with one post...well technically it would be two posts - one in each thread...hmmmm - guess that could be a quantum twin...yikes now we’re talking spooky physics in the fundamental parts of an ex-fundamentalist!

Well, if you think I’m gonna do an encore of my self-flagellation routine…you’re crazy ! Just kidding Moderators, you all have done a great job of keeping Grease Spot on point with its mission…thanks so much…I might say something there if I can keep it from straying too off topic…I mean, the tag on this thread does say “CONFESSIONS of a former fundamentalist”…interesting problem though…explaining how my apology was prompted by things going on in more than one thread…this may wind up being a “what-came-first-the-chicken-or-the-egg” scrambled up mess – so I’m entertaining the idea of starting a new thread to show the timeline of it all…just kidding! there i did it - intergalactic travel is possible!

Hi once again TLC & Grease Spotters thought I’d tie up a few loose ends…of a “thread within a thread” – I apologized to TLC on another thread concerning the Bible the apology was for my overreacting and being overboard harsh and critical of his posts both on that thread and this one…for me Grease Spot is often a “story within the other side of the story” - - the changes I’m going through as I (hopefully) grow further away from TWI and a certain mindset I use to harbor. Perhaps I can also relate this back to answering a question Bolshevik posed in the first post of this thread - “I'm hoping some Christians (or some who understand) can explain why The Trinity is important to many Christians, why VPW's anti-Trinity stance was significant, and how the non-Trinity view may have affected other doctrines of Christianity in TWI. (What might have been intended and unintended consequences.) What role does the Trinity play and what did VPW disrupt?” I think one of the consequences of wierwille’s anti-Trinity stance was how it helped to foster a dogmatic response…followers of TWI would never dream of thinking outside the (theological) box…thus a very successful group-think was established…I’ll end with what I said in my apology on the other thread: "One of the great things about Grease Spot is rather than there being something of a collective consciousness in the discussions - it’s more along the lines of divergent thinking - where a variety of possible solutions are proposed in an effort to find one or more solutions that can work...here it’s cool to QUESTION EVERYTHING and you’re FREE TO PICK AND CHOOSE what makes sense and works for you! That was some of my thinking in starting this thread - - and uhm...I seemed to have forgotten that."

Hush money = dumba$$ suppression system

TLC, thanks for your thoughtful response and I am glad you appreciate what I said...and at least you’re more aware of how you come across to others... for me it took a private message from WordWolf awhile back concerning this thread - and it was just a simple friendly comment of his - something along the lines of he thought my several posts to you were way overboard harsh and critical...good call on his part - and it took awhile of letting that percolate...so I started crafting an apology on my iPhone / notepad but i was gearing it to the “Trinity “ thread - - but damn about the time I was going to post it there the Mods had locked that thread...I kept waiting and waiting ... but when it comes to doing “penance” this old catholic boy gets very impatient - I just wanted to get it over with and move on. Well, it was more appropriate for this thread anyway since it was here where it “all went down” You spoke of genetics...I don’t know how much of it is genetics and how much of it is attributable to a fundamentalist-mindset-hangover or other bad habits - but I seem to be especially gifted at being an azzhole. I found a good definition of azzhole proposed by Aaron James: “That got me thinking about what it would be for someone to qualify as an azzhole. Harry Frankfurt partly inspired this. I thought: Frankfurt put his finger on bull$hit and I am a philosopher, so I should define “.azzhole...”. After considerable tinkering and with the help friends, I settled on this definition: the azzhole.... is the guy who systematically allows himself special advantages in cooperative life out of an entrenched sense of entitlement that immunises him against the complaints of other people.” (Note: I had to change words to “bull$hit” and “azzhole” to get by Grease Spot censorship) See article here Well anyway, we all have our shortcomings and long-suits...and with us all having a common experience of having been in a screwed up organization at some point in our lives - this seems to be a good place to work all that out... ...my wife came up with an alternate way of expressing love that we both use at times when one of us feels vulnerable or $hitty and it’s to say “thanks for putting up with me”. Which I’d like to now say to you and all the folks at Grease Spot - thanks for putting up with me.

Rocky, good article and that book looks interesting too...Your post brought to mind wierwille’s phrase of how we can “love the unloveable “ - which for me now looking back often meant do whatever it takes to get that person to sign up for the class... and if they’re not interested in taking PFAL then drop them like a hot potato....that’s where I draw the line on how much to love the unloveable ha ! “Love the unloveable “ seems like a rather silly naive notion to me now - if someone is truly unloveable then why am I focusing my “affections” on them? To have answered that question honestly back in the day might have been painfully revealing . I guess back then I was so naive and idealistic...and overly simplistic and shallow to think the cure-all for everyone is PFAL...as the pep talks often used to go for motivating us to get someone signed up for the class - - sort of along the lines of “if you really care about someone you want to help them - and there’s nothing better than PFAL that can really help them.” I agree with the article that “love bombing” is a way to manipulate someone - to get them to do what you want, like sign up for the class...it was NOT a genuine unselfish love - but rather self-serving...I could be a real azzhole to my family all day long but boy could I turn on the charm if there was a new person at fellowship! Maybe folks will see me getting them to sign up for the class !....What hypocrisy!

Now I feel bad - you’ve used my name twice and I called you Little Miss Name-Dropper... sorry about that Twinky Twinky !

Oh hi Little Miss Name-Dropper