T-Bone

excellent point, Twinky - thanks!

Once again, your trivialization of Almighty God leaves a lot to be desired. As another rebuttal to your God-demeaning thesis, please review Romans 8…and note the chapter offers little insight or explanations of why bad stuff happened and continues to happen, other than verse 28 we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him : 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life d because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of e his Spirit who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. f And by him we cry, “Abba, g Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God. 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who i have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. 31What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” j 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, k neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ Mike – you sound a lot like wierwille in portraying the devil and his troops as having so much power as to often force God to respond in a certain way…read about the Heavenly Warrior in the book of Revelation, with ‘merely’ the sharp sword coming out of His mouth He vanquishes the opposition…reminds me of Genesis – God just said let there be light – and there was light – and the darkness fled: 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” a a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Revelation 19 NIV

Of course, if you have the believing to afford it, you could always fly to the Rock. Remember to keep an eye out for Ambassador One ( wierwille always did ) because mid-air collisions wouldn’t go over too well at the Rock. Literally and metaphorically.

Interesting thoughts, Skyrider! And I suspect there might be more to wierwille’s misleading followers by diverting attention away from his bad behavior – but not from his glory as our champion of evil exposing our enemy. I believe with his fixation on demonology – he established a stranglehold on my faith in God. I can easily recall many times in my 12 years with The Way International that my go-to strategy for ‘dealing with the adversary’ was referring to something wierwille taught whether in PFAL or other works. That’s a great form of control to have on someone. wierwille was my reference point. Not long after I got off the WOW field I witnessed to a church pastor. I was so full of myself – thinking I could whoop his a$$ with ‘trinkets’ from PFAL and JCING…that didn’t go well…I went home and felt so weird and confused I said to my wife please minister to me – I don’t know if that pastor sic’d a devil spirit on me – but something is not right. I now offer up a more realistic analysis of that experience – while witnessing to a pastor – a Christian who probably had actual training in a legitimate seminary and a more accurate and honest understanding of the Bible - it had a jarring effect on the cognitive dissonance and twisted wierwille-doctrines swirling about in my head. A most uncomfortable experience...I thought it was from a devil spirit...but it was my TWI-mindset being confronted by reality.

On another thread Skyrider said this: and what I said there I thought would be good to add to this thread: Skyrider said: “He was in constant fear of losing his power and control over others. Was he also afraid that his secret sins would be found out and on display for others to see?” This right here!!!!!!! Fear of losing control and fear of exposure! Toto pulling back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. ~ ~ ~ ~ In its memory banks R2D2 had the Death Star plans that revealed its weakness Grease Spot Café is like Toto and R2D2, don’t you think?

Skyrider said: “He was in constant fear of losing his power and control over others. Was he also afraid that his secret sins would be found out and on display for others to see?” This right here!!!!!!! Fear of losing control and fear of exposure! Toto pulling back the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. ~ ~ ~ ~ In its memory banks R2D2 had the Death Star plans that revealed its weakness ~ ~ ~ ~ Grease Spot Café is like Toto and R2D2, don’t you think?

Genesis and Job do not present a hard separation of spiritual realm and physical realm. The cultural imagery in the Bible conveys the idea that they somehow overlap … it could be the two realms are superimposed on top of the other…one folded up inside the other…we could speculate with superstring theory, other dimensions…the Bible doesn’t provide a scientific explanation of how the two realms interact - and for that matter throughout the whole Bible that seems to be the case - the spiritual realm Interacting with the physical realm and visa versa. perhaps you get caught up in the rigid literalism of fundamentalism - and ignore the rich symbolism. The serpent in Genesis 3 wasn’t literally a snake. What features and abilities are represented in a serpent? The divine council meetings in Job seem cartoonish compared to how Jesus Christ dealt with demons in the gospels. In Job Satan is negotiating with God. Jesus didn’t negotiate - he kicked demonic a$$! But the symbolism in Job represents the same idea in the gospels - God is sovereign - every spiritual being answers to Him. In Job it’s understated - ancient cultures understood how warring states often manage through diplomacy. there is no hard separation between the two. Again your theory is similar to wierwille’s brand of Gnosticism -for instance he assumed the spirit is perfect and it doesn’t matter what one does in the flesh. Even OT rituals taught spirit and flesh are intertwined -with dedicating the utensils in the temple, and attitudes and practices towards others . That’s 1st & 2nd commandments in a nutshell. NT the same - look at the attention to our behavior, how we treat others, and the warnings of erroneous and sinful doctrines can effect one’s spiritual health.

No surprise - Mike chose A. A) Ignore the opposing verses and call people names for bringing them up and just post your pet idea

Just think - around the time the PFAL class was made, gasoline was 34 cents per gallon.

When driving to the Rock of Ages, pace yourself. Break bread by the side of the road. Don’t worry – there’ll be a WOW Burger with your name on it when you get here. If not – eat someone else’s WOW Burger.

King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table were relentless in their pursuit of finding the Holy Grail. Except for rainy days.

Undecided about what to wear? wwEw What would Elvis wear?

Undecided about what to have for breakfast? wwEe What would Elvis eat?

There is NO comfort to be found in PFAL, Intermediate and Advanced Class – only frustration and disappointment! Maybe you should review threads like Why PFAL sucks and Why the Intermediate and Advanced Class suck . If it’s any consolation to you, a lot of folks have been fooled by wierwille’s chicanery - that’s nothing to be ashamed of - BUT - to stubbornly cling to wierwille’s nonsense the way you do, after you’ve seen his baloney exposed on Grease Spot for some 20 years - well, that’s just sad Mike. wierwille probably thought everything he taught was gold. He probably thought his bull-$hit didn't stink too. Doctrine-wise wierwille’s ‘mixture’ had at least 4 dubious components: signature intuition, fundamentalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism. Shared a little about that on your 2nd wave of PFAL thread - here > My post on 4 major elements of wierwille's doctrine Jan. 27th 2022 1:33 PM

Work on it all you want. I'll reiterate what I said - I know enough of the Bible, biblical theology and systematic theology to confidently say THERE ARE NO SCRIPTURES THAT SUPPORT YOUR THREAD THESIS! the divine council depicted in Job is a culturalism - please see my posts on the idiom of permission thread where I address that - here and here ...this is recognized by scholars who HAVE ACTUALLY STUDIED the ancient cultures of the Bible - which goes way beyond the 'sanitized for Christianity' stuff taught in TWI's orientalisms. The ancient Hebrews adapted concepts of other religions and cultures - the idea of a divine council, a group of deities managing the world was common in many religions and cultures - but put YAHWEH at the top - the head God so to speak. I am currently re-reading Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness by Michael Heiser , so besides the references in my posts on the idiom of permission thread – you might find Heiser’s Demons rewarding – since he is an expert in the biblical languages and cultures. So, your suggestion here is to persist in hoping the law of believing will work and you re-enforce the error by assuming what you’re praying for is the right thing. Jesus also warned us to avoid useless and arrogant repetition. And James gets into how believers can pray amiss: And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words… Matthew 6:7 NIV ~ ~ ~ ~ 1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 4You adulterous people, a don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us b ? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” c 7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up… James 4 NIV “God's limitations are always temporary. In the near future the limitations will be gone.” What?!?! You again refer to some imaginary restriction! Your thinking is all messed up. To persist in doing something that changes nothing is stupid. Forgiveness is entirely different from persisting in magical thinking. well...we're human...God loves us anyway...He puts up with a lot of dumb things we do. well...you lost me there...Your whole theory on minFW is another convoluted pile of bull-$hit .

No - I’ve already touched on a couple of main tenets of Gnosticism - and too complicated to expand on what some Gnostic groups thought of even earthly Jesus besides his resurrected body. And another thorny subject in Christianity tinged with Gnosticism is how to get around Jesus’ new body coming into the fleshly realm of matter. Some of your speculations sounds like rehashed Gnosticism only you don’t realize it but I do - because I did a lot of reading up on scholarly works about Gnosticism and found where wierwille got some of his ideas - or maybe not so much ‘where’ but HOW. In a sense Gnosticism is exalting one’s ego - wierwille’s reference point was not the Bible but his twisted delusions.

How does one know what the maximum allowable amount of surety is? We’re talking about epistemology NOT hard science! wierwille presented himself as a know-it-all and encouraged his followers to think the same way. I don’t claim to know it all. I know very little! But I know enough Scripture and how we got the Bible to know bull-$hit when I read it. Your stuff makes no sense and has no scriptural basis.

Limitations specify restrictions - whether in time, power or some other variable. Where are the passages that support your theory?

Well there’s your problem - it sounds like you were unaware of the influence of Gnosticism on wierwille’s ideology…might help if you read other stuff besides PFAL material.

Right! So who needs wierwille and his pontificating PFAL up to the Advanced Class? Totally unnecessary bull-$hit to generate “ministry income”, and build a hierarchy of knowledge / status in The Way International cult.

Limitations implies restrictions based on rules , specific set points, some standard. You claim you see these limitations in Scripture but you don’t cite specific verses. You suggest there are limitations that God is subject to - but have NOT shown it from Scripture. You talk like you know how angels and demons work - but that’s all it is - it’s just YOU talking.

I think you’re getting ideologies mixed up. While there may be some similarities across religions - Biblical theology and Gnosticism are antithetical on a couple of your topics. Christianity speaks of salvation through Jesus Christ. Gnosticism seeks salvation through special knowledge. Christianity: The Word became flesh. Gnosticism: spirit is pure, the flesh is evil - never the twain shall meet.

I know wierwille was obsessed with Gnosticism- remember his repetitive schtick in PFAL - that you can know that you know that you know. Gnosticism is salvation through secret knowledge…and your double doors / open doors stuff is similar to Gnosticism’s emanations and the strict separation of spirit and matter.

This sounds a lot like Gnosticism

Bobby always says grace before every meal.