T-Bone

I’m not aware of any scientific proof that indicates there is no life after death

Yes I apologize to all for this major detour I have introduced - so I’ll try to be very brief - perhaps if anyone wants to discuss anything in further detail you can start another thread - anyway my reply to this post is simply the point I was trying to make - that there are numerous historical and scientific errors in the Bible , texts or whatever is still in existence ... ...I was not attempting to split hairs on what’s inspired versus what’s given by revelation...either way - what I was suggesting is that the important content of the message speaks of spiritual matters - which by the way there is no way to verify if it has errors (there is no fact-checker for the spiritual realm ) - and so that is the part my faith latches onto. i believe the Bible is very much a product of the times - that also has a timeless message .

Yeah I guess it does sound like I’m putting science back in the driver’s seat – however, I might add that in this analogy you suggest I have my faith as an onboard GPS Navigation System…I think that is what gives me what the direction to go in if I am pursuing more details on some aspect of science – and now more than ever I am concerned with my faith not distorting the science… when I spoke of giving priority or precedence to science over religion – I meant that in terms of where the deference should go – so basically I ask myself if the Bible fails to hold true to fact or what science has already proven – then I adjust my interpretation of the Bible accordingly – which sometimes means making accommodations for the cultural mindset or intellectual limitations of that time . I will return to this point further down – but for now - I hope I’m not detracting from the main purpose of this thread – so I’ll try to be as brief as possible in my attempt at clarification ( please bear with me for a few minutes...I do apologize in advance – obviously by the length that follows you can see I still have not thought all this out – but I’m working on it.) Usually a fundamentalist interpretation takes the Bible as literally true…as wierwille said in PFAL the Bible doesn’t contain the word of God - it IS the word of God – and thus is perfect on any subject it mentions…that’s where I now disagree. I believe the Bible CONTAINS the word of God – an inspired book, yes – but clearly written by imperfect humans – exhibiting “warts and all”, the shortcomings and foibles of people, and even contradictions, factual, historical and scientific errors. Ok – let’s pause for a sec – I know what I just said might freak out some folks – so let me walk you through how I got there…I think there’s an assumption by some folks (and I was one of them) that when God inspired or gave revelation with a specific message – that it was something almost like a document drafted by top notch lawyers – in that every angle was covered – no loopholes or inaccuracies – that could come back later and bite an author in the a$$ ...Some folks are willing to go part way and say “yeah God inspired these writers but they used their own vocabulary and writing style” – but why do we assume the limitations of knowledge back then or the shortcomings of human nature do not come into play also? And what if God was only concerned with a certain type of message – information of a spiritual nature…I mean after all God mandated that humans should rule the earth back in Genesis 1 – one should ask how that might be realized. I believe the march of time from the beginning of recorded history will show that humans have been very busy in carrying out God’s directive to rule the earth – the constant advances in science, technology, medicine, “noble” experiments in government, etc. … Genesis 1 says that humans were made in the image of God to rule…yes that image is tainted because of sin – so you have the good and bad side of people reflected in the misuse of science, technology, government, etc… I remember certain wierwille teachings that emphasized all inventions come by revelation – that type of thinking totally disregards AND disrespects the potential of people who are social, creative and constructive beings made in the image of God. Why does God have to hold our hands every step of the way in progress? If God is anything like human parents – maybe he wanted us to grow up and stand on our own two feet. What if God’s laissez-faire policy is merely been holding up his end of the deal in Genesis 1 – when he said humans should dominate the earth… I will not even attempt to address God’s sovereignty in all this…something I do believe but understand so little about…which is how God works behind the scenes…God’s sovereignty and our freedom of will is indeed one of the toughest conundrums of the Christian faith…But let me be clear on this – I’m not one of those folks who thinks God is on my side and is pulling strings for me all the time – I don’t think there’s any scripture to support that kind of thinking…but there is something to following the moral dictates of your conscience…and I believe God created a moral universe and justice will prevail…but how God…or some higher power will work all that out is beyond me. == == == == Now back to a point in the first paragraph. Contrary to my former fundamentalist mindset of taking everything so literally in the Bible – I did a “180 degree” on what I think of evolution. Considering all the evidence and the research that is constantly being updated I now think it is a distinct possibility that God has guided the evolutionary process. The message I think that the ancient writers were trying to convey had nothing to do with scientific accuracy – but simply that God in the beginning created. I must say – loving science and being raised in a Christian home – my “a priori” has been the wonder of the universe suffused with faith…of seeing the mind and hand of God in the cosmos…and in trying to get back on track with that – there is perhaps the “a posteriori” of interpreting an ancient book with a modern mind…perhaps if anything has been muddled it’s the forcing-of-a-square-peg-in-a-round-hole mentality of fundamentalists who argue for the “scientific accuracy” of the Bible…not sure if I used those terms properly – I’m new at this – thought I ‘d give it a try...and do bear in mind what I've said elsewhere about my thought process - I'm shooting for a synthesis...which means I'm assuming that a harmony of science and faith is possible... ...well TLC - I don't know if all that clarified anything but I do feel a whole lot better now that I got all that off my chest ... of course, this is all just my opinion I could be wrong. what's the diff ? Internet encyclopedia of Philosophy

Ha ! There’s something to that, Socrates! After 2 years in a fine arts program - as a professor was critiquing my work - I remember thinking “who the hell is going to pay me to make them a painting?” So I did the smart thing - dropped out of college...and joined a cult. If I had to do it all over again I’d probably go for a degree in electrical engineering and minor in philosophy... Not too concerned about that now ...fixin’ to retire next year...so it will be full time couch potato and resident philosopher.

Waysider, thanks for that audio cast…very interesting stuff ! I like Dennett – he seems so at ease on the subject and kinda reminds me a little of Letterman…of late, I’ve become more interested in philosophy but feel lost most of the time – since I’m a latecomer – but Dennett has a way of making it seem accessible to me…if he’s like that in his books – I may just have to check out some of them: his “From Bacteria to Bach and Back”, “Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon”, “Science and Religion: Are They Compatible?”, and “Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking” (all look interesting so I put them on my Amazon wish list). Like you were saying and Dennett explains further - philosophy and religion is the approach you take when you don’t know the right questions to ask…Dennett also talked about science as an effort to seek truth – since it asks the right questions – which are usually very specific - like, how far away is that? .... What is that made of?... When did this happen? – and for that endeavor science often develops technological “prosthetics” (telescopes, microscopes, radio waves, Carbon-14 dating, etc.) in search of the truth… I think Dennett also mentioned that philosophy came long before the sciences were developed…guess you have to start somewhere…I’ve always had a love for science, even as a kid – but doggone it – I got sidetracked into giving religion priority over science when I joined The Way Ministry Grrrrrrrr …well, anyway – I’m trying out a new approach – where science takes precedence over religion as I attempt to draw (in pencil – it has an eraser at the other end, ya know ) a mental map of reality…maybe this goes along with what Chockfull said about it not having to be a science versus faith thing - - uhmmm I'm working on a synthesis, I guess…well, there you have it folks, my belief system in a nutshell. thinking about what Raf said – I like his honesty - entertaining questions about atheism being a religion – and I also related to something else he said – I have wondered if my getting out of a fundamentalist’s mindset was overreacting to TWI dogma – maybe a little bit – but – I think a lot of what motivates me to check out and really consider other ideas and viewpoints is simply the adventurous thrill of exploring the unknown. There’s some really intelligent sounding folks on that audio cast – I felt like a little kid eavesdropping on adults…I believe they’re talking about some very important heady stuff – but for now guess this little kid will just have to keep playing at philosophizing in my little world.

Never rule out the miracle of regurgitation

Just when you thought it was safe to read the Bible...

Me: This is probably just my “old man” talking - but I’ve sat through the class five times and still have a lot of questions…sometimes I think the ministry is just stringing me along with a repetitive cycle that goes nowhere. Them: Just renew your mind…and why don’t you get more involved in the class starting in two weeks - help with setup or getting new students there. I think you’ll really get blessed from that.

Great stuff, Rocky – thanks ! I find that stuff on cult jargon so interesting ! A lot of this stuff has been mentioned before on numerous threads – and for me it always gets more engrossing the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time around…I found this article How does language shape the way we think In an excerpt from that link, the author Lera Boroditsky says: “For a long time, the idea that language might shape thought was considered at best untestable and more often simply wrong. Research in my labs at Stanford University and at MIT has helped reopen this question. We have collected data around the world: from China, Greece, Chile, Indonesia, Russia, and Aboriginal Australia. What we have learned is that people who speak different languages do indeed think differently and that even flukes of grammar can profoundly affect how we see the world. Language is a uniquely human gift, central to our experience of being human. Appreciating its role in constructing our mental lives brings us one step closer to understanding the very nature of humanity.” == == == == ...Here’s my 2-bit theory - in the context of cult jargon – it seems logical to me that any group wishing to form some sort of a template for thinking a certain way – the subliminal path of crafting finely tuned and tweaked words and phrases is the way to go! I guess it doesn't always have to be "crafted" or well-thought-out... ...spontaneity or something along the collective-consciousness-current could figure into all of this too...some folks might be real proud to be known for coining a phrase - - man, when I recall the phrase "let's go bar witnessing" that can still generate TWI-daze-flashbacks - whoever came up with that beaut ought to be whipped with a limp swizzle stick so I imagine language of even a cult group does not always have to be “dictated” by the leaders…it’s possible some words or phrases could catch on in popularity at the grass roots level… ...I guess jargon doesn’t necessarily always have to be a bad thing – but I would think if it puts you in a “box” – limiting the way you frame an issue – limiting your options - then I believe it might be very challenging for someone entrenched in that “language” (jargon) to think outside the box...That’s probably the “best case scenario” in the hopes and dreams of nefarious cult leaders anyway What little I’ve read on language development, I found one widely held theory is the evolutionary adaptation – which basically suggests a group of folks – over time - undergo a change in how they process thought and communication to better survive...See How did Language Evolve? ...so I guess if there is a group-think mentality - there's probably some kind of group-survival-instinct too... i dunno...just thinking out loud...hope I'm not too loud.

AOS has to be one of the great highlights of TWI’s hypocrisy...the production was to reveal the wiles of the devil and how a believer can be strong and stand up against all the deceptions and temptations...meanwhile the “star of the show” believer boy (craig) is boinking the “wrong seed” chick...oh no, Obi-Wan we lost another to the dark side!

I guess I’m at another phase of my journey…but don’t know if I’ve made a definite decision about anything – other than I find it advantageous to be open-minded… you talked about finding the answers in Roman Catholicism grossly lacking…I feel the same way with some of the things I was taught in TWI. Acknowledging that lack is good – then I may be more willing to consider new ideas – and that may lead to something good…it’s a journey. Even though I said I may lean toward Christian agnosticism – I don’t mean it’s a constant struggle to believe there is a higher power or I don’t trust what the Bible says about Jesus Christ – I’m just saying I have my doubts at times…Maybe some of that is from deconstructing a former mindset…where I supposedly would know all I needed to know about God and the Bible as I continued to master PFAL…I’m just not 100% sure about anything anymore… I had grown so tired of being let down in life, when I lived as a fundamentalist …I don’t like surprises…not after being led astray by wierwille…we all know of someone or perhaps experienced it ourselves – the utter shock of finding out you’ve been duped..... it’s traumatizing because we so trusted and respected wierwille…it’s a lot of work to deconstruct your belief system all the way back to find what it was that got you to buy into it all... maybe even against your better judgment… ...doubts and questions - - maybe that’s the “still small voice” of critical thinking.

Grace, I’ve already apologized to TLC – see here and on that note (my post of apology to TLC) without reiterating the whole thought process that brought on a change of heart - I’d just like to say I’m learning to really appreciate the divergent thinking that TLC (and so many others) bring to Grease Spot. I realize in casting a wide net (as Raf described it) this thread was bound to generate some friction in the diverse haul. I tend toward a synthesis of various thoughts from others…but when being too critical of others I guess I forget how much donkey dung that I generate by being verbose, contentious and stubborn…there’s no point in that…life is too short…love and peace !

Our research gets you nowhere fast! It’s like you’re already there.

I’ve never heard of the "folded napkin/returning" custom but it does sound plausible – and I do believe he is coming back! But I have thought of the dramatic effect that folded napkin must have had on those who investigated the tomb. It did not look like a vandalized gravesite – where thieves ransacked the place and stole Jesus’ body. I imagine Jesus’ new body could have simply passed through burial wrappings and the walls of the tomb…however – I think the scene had to be a real mind-blower! The government sealed stone – that was guarded by Roman soldiers had been rolled away and the head wrap was neatly folded and set to one side. If I was there checking everything out I would have been thinking “ok – earthquake could have moved the stone – but the orderly condition of the grave clothes…minus one dead body, means someone ALIVE had to have done that.”

When I was in TWI, two statements always use to bother me: Religion is the opiate of the people and Religion is a crutch These use to bother me because of the challenge they presented to my fundamentalist mindset. How dare they question “the accuracy and integrity of the word”!!! But I’ve sort of returned to the way I use to think before my TWI daze - which was “live and let live”. So I now have come to think there’s something to both of the above statements - and my old “live and let live” more or less translates to - if it works for you and it doesn’t hurt anyone then, cool ! I think my lifelong love of science and an interest in pragmatism has me leaning more toward Christian agnosticism. And probably another thing which hastened the demise of my fundamentalist mindset was the fact that even though a lot of the tenets and supposed benefits of PFAL sounded good on paper (i.e. in theory) they pretty much failed the acid test - where the rubber meets the road - i.e. when i attempted to apply something of PFAL to a real-world situation... ...12 years of spinning your wheels may get you some aerobic points if it were an actual stationary bike but I use it figuratively - so the “PFAL-stationary-bike” gets you nowhere in life...I prefer a destination with a lot more prospects of progress or success. Pragmatism Christian agnosticism

True dat !!!

What a story ! Thanks for sharing so much of your life and congrats on your big family and master of divinity! I look forward to your input on Grease Spot.

Jimbo, if I were you, I’d start a thread “ why does the new guy always have to buy everyone coffee and donuts?” ...you could try what I did...when I first got here I asked if anyone would want to get blessed and sponsor me for coffee and donuts...no takers - but I managed with doing some I-owe-yous

Do whatever you think would best address your concerns...might work out good if you start a new thread with title of what you want to talk about like “dealing with guilt, etc. “ or whatever it is you have in mind.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Jimbo !!! I can relate... I had 2 years in residence then out on the field with assignment of area coordinator- I left after only a few months ... had a lot of guilt and doubt over doing that at first - but it went away after time...now I have a little guilt that I stayed in for so long - like a betrayal of my true self or something... is there such a thing as cultic- schizophrenia? ...Just kidding - the longer you are out and enjoying the freedom and power to think and choose for yourself - the better you’ll feel all around ! Hey, some more coffee for Jimbo and the rest of the Grease Spotters...I do feel a little guilty over how much coffee I drink here ....and that I still pester folks for corps sponsorship ... just kidding - but not about how much coffee I drink when I’m on Grease Spot.

I asked for abundance but all I ever saw was a flaky pastry doing a pirouette - musta been Craig...guess they thought I said a-bun-dance...hmmm...should be plural - “buns” - that’s only if he turns the other cheek.

Around 1978

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Twinky, thanks for the posts with the angel fire link, Steve's paper as PDF (i downloaded it) and the link to his thread - he's shared portions of it and it's great stuff in my opinion.

You’ve got a point there, Taxidev - thanks!