T-Bone

meaningful response ? that would be inconceivable

Thanks for sharing all that Twinky ! I think you’re doing a wonderful thing - in my opinion that’s the real spirit of Christianity! I like how you’re connected to some security resources - I’ve been involved in many different aspects of security for most of my adult life and have found a very helpful thing to crime prevention and establishing a safe and secure environment is the obvious presence of concerned citizens...and it’s a definite plus when there’s folks like street pastors who really care and are not afraid to handle messy situations.

Just some speculation on my part - but I think people are people - and I was going along the train of thought Waysider mentioned - I was trying to show the relevance of Paul’s situation to what many of us experienced after leaving TWI... ...it takes time and effort to undo the mental ruts that become a part of one’s life...and it varies from individual to individual — depending on how long and how much you were involved.

Yeah that’s about the same for me...and I think in some ways it was probably one of the loneliest times in my life - in terms of realizing it was something I had to figure out for myself...and I say loneliest, even though my wife was right there with me going through the same “extrication” process - maybe we would occasionally discuss doctrine, issues or the change in our social life - but we tended to give each other some space... you just can’t get there if you’re still in a group-think setting - which has gotta be like the blind leading the blind in my humble opinion...ya know, after Paul’s conversion he did drop out of the “main scene” for awhile - some commentaries speculate it could have been years...I think he was extricating himself from the confines of his old Pharisee mindset.

You made me think of that old proverb of a dog returning to its vomit...to which I have to ask - what if the dog never walked away from its own vomit?....another thing they like to do is roll on dead things and $hit... Hmmm ...we’re not just talking about dogs here, are we?

Taxidev was kind enough to PM me and check with me if it was okay to send my symbiotic arrangement post to the R&R group. I told him I appreciated him asking, and that it didn’t matter to me – but he may want to think about the reaction Don’t Worry received after contacting the MoneyHands…(see the above section of Don’t Worry’s post I quoted here). I think the only reaction he may get from anyone in that group over my little 2-bit cult analysis will be similar to the one in Acts 19:15 “Don’t Worry I know, and Penworks I know about, but who the fvck is T-Bone?!?!”

An interesting thing about The Way International is its symbiotic arrangement - where you have two different lifestyles mingling and interacting by the members of the group: 1. There is the Christian lifestyle where one professes a belief in Jesus Christ and follows a religion based on His life and teachings. 2. A destructive cult (please refer to the subcategory of “destructive cult” on Wikipedia) follows a certain agenda to the benefit of the cult leaders and to the detriment of the followers. The destructive cult is also parasitic when paired with a religion. It uses and feeds off the life and energy of the religion...the religion is a means to an end and not the end itself. This symbiotic arrangement is invisible, of course - and often it depends on the individual as far as which one of the two lifestyles…eclipses…dominates…overrides the other. == == == == Folks are usually not attracted to a destructive cult. In my case with TWI, I was attracted to what they said I could learn about Jesus Christ and increasing the power of God in my life – so I enrolled in the PFAL class. If you stick around for a while and aspire to achieve any personal goals or some level of service – I believe you will come to many crossroads in your journey. These crossroads are like an intersection – where the Christian lifestyle and the destructive cult “meet” - where a crucial decision has to be made. Do you take the direction of a Christ-centered-faith or do you follow TWI’s direction which only furthers their agenda? == == == == There are always moral dilemmas in life – and I think the decisions we make and the actions we take reveals so much about our character…and keep in mind how this all plays out on an individual basis and in different ways. I could be torn between wanting to give $100 to someone I know who really needs it – or give that to The Way International who reminds me that is part of my abundant sharing and putting God first. I knew lots of good honest folks when I was in TWI. But I also came across some real a$$holes too. And I don’t mean folks with an irksome personality. I mean folks who were really into lording it over others, of using “for the sake of God’s ministry” as a cloak for excusing their dishonesty in business practices (I was burned a time or two) - where "doing the right thing" to resolve an offense or right a wrong really just amounts to sweeping it under the carpet so as not to give the ministry a bad name.. ...it's applying a fresh coat of white paint to the sepulcher of hypocrisy. == == == == You said “But I have read and heard accounts of others about how controlling and mentally devastating it can be. Just look at what many of you have shared here on GSC.” Yeah, I think that’s the voices of the good honest folks who left TWI. The type of so called Christians who rip others off, who are self-serving as in Matthew 18 and in II Peter 2 do NOT post at Grease Spot… I don’t think it’s a matter of “It takes learning. But if that learning isn't correct, and one has nothing to compare it to except even more incorrect doctrine” as you have stated – I believe it is simpler and deeper than that. It’s really about the type of person you are to begin with. Do you have the moral fiber to do what is right no matter the circumstances, or what your shrinking pocketbook or “evil overlord” is telling you to do? You said: “That was what my feeble attempt was of bringing up Paul. He actually believed he was doing the right thing.” I think Paul was an honest man – even before his conversion – he once said before a religious council he had lived his whole life in good conscience see Acts 23 though he was "before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief" I Timothy 1:13 With religious zeal to spare Philippians 3:6 ...after his conversion he then made decisions based on his Christ-centered-faith. Paul of course did not have the New Testament documents to give him explicit directions on how to live the Christian life; but he did have the living Christ in his heart to first help him re-interpret the Old Testament documents in light of Jesus Christ being its fulfillment...and later inspiring him to write some of the New Testament documents as well. Perhaps if we go by a simple idea – that actions speak louder than words (even the words of the Bible, that some folks like to use to obfuscate the issues) – then what folks actually do reveals a whole lot more about their character – you said: “give them a chance to prove they have had a change of heart and mind” – they’ve had their chance for a long time now - I think the proof is in the pudding.

I think you may be comparing apples to oranges. Paul persecuted the church BEFORE his conversion. That’s totally different from the hypocrisy, spiritual abuse and exploitation perpetrated by supposedly Christian ministers - like in II Peter 2

Twinky, great posts !!! I always like when you share about what’s happening in your neck of the woods…I mean by your shore of the pond…I think you are a truly sweet and kind person…and more power to all you street pastors! …I’m glad I got to meet you too at the Texas BBQ.

Great post, Don’t Worry !!! I love the continuity and strength you’ve always provided to anyone wanting out of that supermassive black hole (i.e. wierwille and any iterations) – I will always be grateful I got to speak to you on the phone around the time Tonto and I were working on our TWI-xit - - and we’ll always cherish getting to meet you in person at the Texas BBQ a few years ago…you are the real deal ! Helping others see all the connections to the “dark side” (wierwille’s bull$hit) is a force to be reckoned with…you’re like the Luke Skywalker of Grease Spot only you weren't tempted to kill Ben Solo and you don’t die at the end of the movie - - oh gosh darn – I’m sorry I didn’t announce a spoiler alert first for all you dang Star Wars nerds . When it comes to offshoots, spinoffs, rip-offs, knock-offs, “runoffs” and jerk-0ffs, I think it’s rather evident that wierwille’s doctrine and practice never really goes away…his adoring fans merely dress it up in a different exoskeleton - hoping it will survive the “harsh conditions” of this strange world called reality.

Great - a round of Grease Spot’s best coffee for everyone!

I was thinking over something Steve mentioned in his paper on the Trinity – he quoted Peter Toon, who said about the Economic Trinity - This is the self-revelation of God… and we come to know about him as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit… and then we enter into personal friendship, personal union, personal knowing of the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit... So this is the Economic Trinity, God in his economy of creation, his economy of grace… (end of excerpt) == == == == I think some of what shaped my idea of God as a heavenly father is the relationship I had with my earthly father. My dad was a good man, honest, generous, and kind – but suffered from PTSD after serving in WWII; I think that might have been a big factor in why I felt emotionally cut off from him. I also knew him to be a very resourceful, creative and technically savvy…so given all that, I guess I was like any kid who thinks their dad is awesome – my world revolved around him. I wonder - if you don’t have a good emotional connection with someone that you greatly admire - will that lead to feelings of inferiority? Feeling like you don’t measure up to someone you idolize…anyway – just thinking out loud here – since I happened to read Psalm 104 this morning…and was letting my mind wander thinking about the awesome creative power described in the Psalm…I think I’ve watched too many sci-fi and space movies where they have a scene of looking at our planet from outer space – I like to scare myself by imagining I’m this little ant on the other side of the planet – far away from God’s field of view…some of my childhood still lives on in my head…maybe it’s not a bad thing – I mean, I still have a lot of awe and respect for God and maybe some fear of God too…I was never a big fan of the matter-of-fact-causual-best-buds relationship that some folks seem to have with God Almighty…not that there’s anything wrong with that…it’s just not me…maybe that will change some day…I dunno… But I do find hope in that stuff about making a connection with God through the Son by the Holy Spirit…For me it seems Jesus Christ makes the Father approachable…accessible…and I wonder if it’s the work of the Holy Spirit that inspires me to explore this connection. It’s odd – I don’t think how I relate to God has changed much since I was a kid. I still pray to him…(I don’t pray to Jesus, by the way...I mean, even Jesus told us to pray in this manner "Our Father..." ). When I’m thankful I think of God. It was just a passing thought - but the other morning as I was getting ready for work I had a brief moment of bliss as I thought about how grateful I am to God for getting to share an existence with this family of mine. My thoughts usually turn to Jesus Christ or something from the Gospels when it has to do with how I relate to others. I think that slogan what would Jesus do is pretty good. But for me I usually think in terms of what would Jesus have me do…ever get the feeling you’re being followed? I get that sometimes – not for real – but in my imagination – yeah, it’s like when I’m being a real a$$hole to someone and Jesus Christ is right over there eyeballing me with a raised eyebrow in that what-are-you-doing-look…oh, can’t we just go back to the I’m-a-little-ant-on-the-other-side-of-the-planet-away-from-God’s-view mode? all kidding aside though, I feel I can easily relate to Jesus Christ...he walked the earth - he understands the problems and challenges we all experience. And maybe in all that there’s also the Holy Spirit to liven up things...perhaps a catalyst when thoughts of Jesus Christ turns into empathizing with others...and sometimes I feel convicted of some fault or sin or maybe feel compelled to apologize or resolve an issue I’ve caused…Sometimes I feel on fire to criticize hypocrisy or to stand up for what's right…makes you wonder sometimes what drives you…sometimes we are mystifying to ourselves. Well, anyway…that is how I think the Trinity works in my life...but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...especially if there's no such thing as the Trinity.

i went looking for this earlier after reading your post - I could have sworn someone recently posted about this.

Well…when you put it like that, I’m tempted to forget about any “scholarly references” and just let my 2-bit brain ramble…ergo…hence…thus… Religion: my idea of what makes a religion is a belief in something beyond the five senses; it is something I hold onto even though there is no proof. I tend to think one of the essential elements in any religion is faith – ya gotta have faith. God: to me that’s something superhuman…a higher power…an idea I was introduced to at an early age by my parents. Atheism: relative to the my own 2-bit concepts of religion and God – I am inclined to think atheism is NOT a religion – since faith is not required to accept the fact that everything we perceive simply means that’s all there is.

I think that’s right…probably why I find myself sitting on the fence between philosophy and religion (although it does tend to give me a sore bu++ ) - since I like challenging some of the answers that religion provides.

I don’t mean to rain on your parade - but I have often wondered exactly what it was that the Bereans were looking for in Acts 17: 10-12: 10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. == == == We assume they searched the Old Testament (the only scripture in existence at the time) and I think we may also infer that the Bereans weren’t verifying that Paul and Silas just correctly quoted OT passages - considering the fact that often the preaching in early stages of the church would usually interpret or even reinterpret OT passages as having Jesus Christ as the key to understanding them in a new light - perhaps the Bereans were actually doing some heavy-duty theological thinking to see if Paul and Silas’ “interpretation” made sense with the body of scripture... My point is - even if one backtracks into wierwille’s sources (Bullinger, Stiles, BG Leonard, Kenyon, etc.) i think it behooves any serious student of the Bible - to try and be as unbiased as possible when analyzing all that stuff - because all that too is merely someone’s interpretation of scripture...for example, I am still a big fan of Bullinger but since I left TWI and have explored so many aspects of Christian theology - I have grown to disagree on a number of major issues with Bullinger....sometimes one has to abandon a well-worn and possibly distorted “measuring stick “ to reevaluate (and measure) things in a more objective manner...there is no rule or law saying Bullinger, or any of wierwille’s other sources were the end-all on Bible study tools... Needless to say, developing critical thinking is an ever-evolving process... and that’s a great thing about Grease Spot...I have changed my thinking on so many things just by listening and considering what others have said here whether they were similar in beliefs and viewpoint to mine - or were a million miles apart in difference.

Hey Grease Spotters, it's Way Back Wednesday – time for an ancient slogan from some way corps’ brain cell that’s been pickled in Drambuie brine and hermetically sealed in a way corps coffee mug: Master PFAL Make it your own That’s what wierwille did For those who have lost or misplaced their Grease Spot Secret Decoder Ring – please note the twofold message in the above slogan: It’s encouraging grads to thoroughly learn the PFAL material while simultaneously endorsing plagiarism.

Just for the record, here’s something related to that: …As I tell many of the people in my classes: get rid of your other reading material for a while and read the Word of God. If, for the next three months, you give your life primarily to reading and studying the Epistles that are addressed to you and then apply the principles by renewing your mind, three months from now you won’t recognize yourself. You will be such a dynamic person. You will be manifesting the renewed mind and having your prayers answered. You will see signs, miracles and wonders. End of excerpt…from the PFAL book, page 334, the chapter "Renewing One’s Mind" == == == == Though the above paragraph from the PFAL book seems pretty much straight forward and innocuous in its recommendation – one must also consider how this was interpreted by local leadership as they “under-shepherded” new grads and I’m sure there was some variation…but… I can tell you from my personal experience there seemed to be a rather laid-back approach by my Twig coordinator when dealing with me, which was usually pointing me back to the PFAL class materials. After I took the class I read through the entire Bible a couple of times within that year – and had a lot of questions – especially about stuff in the Old Testament and the Gospels… I’d bring up many of these issues and questions to my Twig coordinator – a lot of them were of course outside the realm of PFAL stuff…This may have been somewhat irksome to him – or maybe he just did not want to stray outside the familiar territory of PFAL – but after a while of my “pestering” he would often remind me of that recommendation in PFAL to read the Epistles that were addressed to me AND he also tacked on for good measure, to review all the PFAL material – and keep at it...alas, he was a harbinger for the way corps program which I would enter years later...while in residence - I heard it often and in so many different ways - the essence of which was "master PFAL, then you will really see the greatness of the Word !"

sure...I would like to add though - it might be more than an assumption (which lacks proof) since it can be logically deduced from verses 26 to 28 that mankind was given rulership over sea creatures, birds, livestock etc., and were to fill the earth and subdue it - the application appears to be global: Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”…Genesis 1: 26 -28 NIV Whereas in Genesis 3: 23 it refers to a specific location on earth …So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken…now granted - after the Fall, I think it may have taken a lot more hard work for people to subdue...control...conquer...master...govern...and be faithful stewards of this world - - but it is a work in progress . ...anyway - thinking that mankind still has this global mandate is not without support elsewhere…as it says in Psalm 115: 16 The highest heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he has given to mankind…so it appears to me the mandate may have ever rescinded – even after being banished from Eden...and perhaps Romans 13 can be seen in this light of mankind ruling as well - which speaks of government as being something instituted by God...not any particular form of government but simply as an established, organized way of managing social beings - (that's us ). ...and like you said - this is just my viewpoint as well

I don't see anything in that verse that would suggest the mandate of Genesis 1 was revoked - banished from Eden is perhaps one small specific location - upon this entire earth wherein humans would rule Genesis 1 ...so currently humans cannot rule in the garden of Eden - it's off limits to their jurisdiction, authority...whatever

I'd probably look first at some reference on line Wikipedia merriam webster

I never said anything about choosing or replacing any other directives...I'm just saying I'm not aware of any scripture that revokes or replaces the mandate of Genesis 1

I'm sorry - but I don't understand your point.

Maybe a good question might be “how do you define a religion?”

I think those are assumptions on your part... the directive was to man made in the image of God - and there’s scriptural support to suggest men and women have not lost that image - and so I believe the mandate still stands and in fact is being fulfilled.