T-Bone

(sound of feedback from a cheap PA) attention Adolph’s Cut-Rate Liquor shoppers - will the customer who wanted to trade 4 used tires for a couple of cases of Drambuie, and the girlie magazines uhm...uhhh...my boss said we can’t do that...so ...uhm ...please return those items ...we’ll have your tires by register number 3...The deal is off...uhm ...sorry for the inconvenience.

Don’t Worry, I really appreciate all the intriguing details you’ve been posting about the humble - naw , scratch that - I mean bumble beginnings of a cult. and thanks to WordWolf, Chockfull, Socks and everyone else who have commented

I remember wierwille saying something like that "He even said once, I believe Bullinger would have gotten to Jesus Christ is not God had he lived long enough.” – maybe it was at Advanced Class ’79. == == == == and I remember another thing he said in reference to Bullinger – maybe it was in that same setting – can’t recall his exact wording but it was something like “ you can squeeze the Word so hard that you’ll have error running out through your fingers.” there’s some sneaky things about wierwille’s somewhat derogative statement of Bullinger: - criticize and detract from one of his biggest plagiarized sources…so much for the “mathematical exactness and scientific precision” of “The Word”… - as much as wierwille twisted and mangled the interpretation of the Bible – and yet elevated himself so much above Bullinger is like Jack the Ripper saying he’s a better surgeon than any qualified medical practitioner...wierwille always had a tendency to present himself as head and shoulders above many of the people he referred to - like he was so far ahead of them in rightly dividing the Bible... and maybe even more importantly supposedly having God as his own personal tutor. I seriously doubt if wierwille could have been intellectually objective in looking at another person’s work - let alone grasping the salient points – I could be wrong but I suspect his intent to steal their work and cover his tracks was the overriding principle to thwart such "insignificant issues". I guess he figured he had more to gain by stealing and lying than by truly learning and being an honest teacher... or maybe he just misunderstood the "make it your own" idea of becoming thoroughly knowledgeable of studied material...he took that literally (< note the double entendre - includes plagiarism ) - - and put his name on it

Great plagiarists ink alike

Thanks for that info-packed post, Don’t Worry ! I am totally surprised hearing about those research nights when you were in-Rez ...quite different from the stifling stagnation experience when I was at Rome City.

Wow we’re like two apologies that pass over a Greasey Spot in the night.

Gosh Lifted Up, I hope you didn’t take offense from my crass pun... after I read your recent post of a past experience on Unraveling Cult Indoctrination I wish I had not made such an insensitive joke from your post here. Please accept my apology...I hate it when my sarcasm causes collateral damage.

I think so...that’s why they used shag carpet in the motor coach .

Revision forthcoming

Imagine a whitewash pedal - for covering up really bad guitar work....hmmmmm...do they make that for bassists?

oh I see where you got those pictures from, Chockfull... Excerpt from “The Illustrated Guide for the Religious Hypocrite” page 666 First: Once you have a following, you should take measures so that they stick around; by whatever surreptitious means possible encourage followers to build a build a brick wall around their minds; you can always suggest whitewashing it later when folks get tired of beating their heads against a brick wall…surveys have found people might think it would be less painful if they were to beat their heads against a whitewashed wall. Second: as supposedly religious leaders you may be expected to put all your cards on the table from time to time or after any major scandal; remember you can always whitewash it all at some point – even whitewash over the things that you have supposedly come clean on. Third: Beware of the challenging counter-fit; when whitewashing around bars, countertops, “junk tables”, and other licentious platforms, remember to move all important items like Drambuie, porn videos, and roofies up and out of the way of plain sight; note, though it may be difficult to have all the items fit on the counter, most people will not notice the clutter anyway because they’ll be too busy admiring the bang up job you did of whitewashing the façade. Fourth: Consequences…schmonsequences…when others challenge your flagrant hypocrisy and warn you of hellfire and damnation, remember you can always whitewash the bricks around the place of fire…hellfire and damnation never looked so cool !

Twinky, thanks for starting this thread in doctrinal – and thanks for those questions! I think Christian leadership is mostly about service as Jesus in Mark 10: 35 to 45 explains…and I believe there is no higher calling than service – whatever that might be – simply put, service is helping or working for someone. I think as far as Christian leadership goes – whether in church or after church – a leader should lead by example. Leadership is about influence – about inspiring others…it’s walking the talk - - and I think the ratio should be 10% talk and 90% walk. As Paul, Silas and Timothy expressed to the Thessalonians ( please see I Thessalonians 1: 5 – 8 ) 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit. 7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. == == == I’m not sure of the sequence, but it seems only natural that the Thessalonians first became imitators of Paul & company and then of the Lord – and after some time and genuine growth in living the Christian lifestyle they became exemplary believers. So leading by example can inspire others – who in turn will also lead by example. I also wanted to say something about being a genuine Christian leadership “material” - - no matter what your calling is in life. It should not be something you have to turn on when you’re around other Christians or when you want to witness to someone. It should not have to be something you turn on at all. It should be who you are. Over the years, in working for different companies I have been around ordained ministers, church deacons, seminary students, etc. who are also in the work force. The exemplary Christians would make any church proud. But the ones that come to mind when I think of the type who operate on the turn-it-on-and-off-as-the-situation-demands protocol - - are more apt to cut corners on a process like in a preventative maintenance or security & life/safety checklist…or maybe they run a bunch of personal errands while they’re out of the office supposedly handling a company task on company time…or maybe pilfering supplies or old equipment left in storage "that nobody is going to miss anyway"...a principle of faithful in little - then faithful in much comes to mind Luke 16: 10 - 12 10 Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? == == == So what do I look for in a Christian leader? I don’t look for Jesus on a stick – just someone who is authentic – not someone who is only interested in rendering eye-service for whoever else is watching them as they lead, administrate, serve, work, etc. – but someone who is intent on serving Christ from the heart Ephesians 6: 5 - 9 .

I appreciate what you’ve said, Taxidev…you’ve brought up a very interesting point – learning history to avoid repeating mistakes. Amen to that. I can honestly say that I have lived a life in good conscience before God. And I’m not saying I’m anything special or a goody-two-shoes. I knew a lot of good honest folks when I was in TWI…so maybe there’s something to birds of a feather flock together…the reason I left TWI was not because I suddenly grew a conscience and wanted to “change my evil ways” but rather - after some time of study, reflection and investigation following the implosion in 1986 - I could no longer in good conscience continue to endorse or support TWI’s doctrine and practice. I also wanted to leave you with a few thoughts about that experience. I think what did more damage to my faith than anything else – was when I started to realize the utter hypocrisy of top leadership. Maybe that’s some of the dangers of wolves in sheep’s clothing and bad trees that Jesus Christ warned us about in Matthew 7 and of the damage they could bring to one’s faith – causing them to stumble as in Matthew 18 ... While I had tried my best to live the Christian lifestyle – I had come to learn that a certain upper echelon (the Board of Trustees) did not …they were the consummate hypocrites...see Matthew 23 ... … there’s nothing like the spiritual betrayal by hypocrites to blow your faith out of the water. Finding out they had a double standard was a real eye-opener! I had trusted them to teach me the Word...I believed they were like the pillars of the church...I believe they walked with God...I was BETRAYED ! While us average Joes sought to please God in our walk - those top leadership bozos (Board of Trustees) felt free to do whatever to gratify their flesh, egos, and personal agenda – and they used whatever means necessary to maintain their presumptuous superiority over the followers of The Way International – whether it was lies, manipulation, coercion, threats, badgering, berating, character assassination, etc. So yeah, I definitely have a jaded view of anything even remotely related to wierwille and The Way International. Sometimes I find myself praying along the lines of “Lord, I believe…and help my unbelief.” I think everyone has something to contribute on Grease Spot. And it’s a give and take process going on all the time. Taxidev, always feel free to share your experiences and ask all the questions you want.

It’s probably just my jaded view of The Way International and offshoots talking here – but I think a lot of folks are just wasting their time – though I bet some are having fun pretending to be doing something of biblical significance. I can’t take any of these folks seriously if they can’t come clean on their roots – i.e. repentance!... Where did they learn to interpret the Bible and who conferred on them a title? If it leads back to wierwille – I’ve got a problem with that…but maybe that’s just me...I think the Bible is pretty consistent on how important it is to expose erroneous doctrine and practice...but maybe that's just me, i dunno... "fans" of offshoots need to consider the details of Luke 3 on repentance, II Corinthians 7 on repentance and clearing oneself, and Matthew 18 on biblical conflict resolution Having been burned quite a few times by phonies and liars, I’ve come to the conclusion the best way to deal with religious phonies and liars is to ignore them. Maybe they should focus more on working an honest, legal job and spend less time feeding a life-sucking “hobby”. Woe unto those who buy into their soft-sell marketing. oh yeah, wanted to add a word of caution to any wannabes with good intentions - buyer beware!

I found this today - you might enjoy it - Lake Street Dive doing Bohemian Rhapsody - I tell ya what - Rachel (lead singer) has some pipes ! and their creative instrumentation is just so entertaining.

Offshoot sub-clause: In cases of offshoot proliferation, the offshooting party is exempt from any previous PFAL grace period or any special dispensation that heretofore implied TWI-justice was being held in abeyance; spiritual consequences such as but not limited to rescinding titles of ordination and confiscation of way corps name tags shall commence booms-quick if not in this day and time and hour.

In the spirit of truthful envy – I’ve been thinking about starting an offshoot myself…actually, it’s an offshoot OF myself…well, technically it’s an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of myself…and honestly there’s probably a few more “offshoot of an offshoot” in there cuz it’s hard keeping track of how many times I’ve changed my mind on things since I left The Way International…and it’s not about the money, folks…I don’t care if you send me your old golf clubs, used cars or mint condition LPs – it’s definitely not just about the money, so get off my case why dontcha ! I have produced an 115 page paper with well over 115 words (that might be a little over a word and some fraction of a word per page) describing my position while I wrote it (I was seated most of the time – though there were a few attempts at automatic writing while I struggled to assume the down-and-out-in-Rome-City Yoga position ) and it’s yours for free – no purchase necessary – just a small minimum required donation…anything really …like old golf clubs, used cars, mint condition LPs, or a 70’s series Fender Jazz Bass…ya know, whatever – I’m not picky…to receive your copy of “Continue Being Fake” just write me “The Leecher”.

Maybe they’re shooting for the Biblical icon equivalence of hypocrisy see Matthew 23 only they just don’t realize that Actions speak louder than words...or as the Bible puts it for the acid test - demonstrate your repentance by your deeds (Matthew 3:8 and Acts 26:20).

Hey Taxidev, thanks for trying - you’re a good man...Don’t Worry got me thinking of some good advice from “The Godfather” ...which is “leave the gun - take the cannoli”...so forget about the harmful and destructive games that they play and holdfast to that which is good...this is the I Thessalonians 5:21 film critic signing off.

That’s a great way to handle the cognitive dissonance issues, OutandAbout ! Thanks for sharing. You know what’s weird - when you talked about “hearing” Craig’s voice trying to counter your own thoughts - I recalled in “VP and Me” of Craig sharing how he supposedly grew in walking by revelation by first “hearing” wierwille’s voice or “seeing” him (in his mind/memory) in a situation as far as how to handle something...guess it was just another nefarious mind-fvck that wierwille had sowed into the corps program... just my 2-bit theory anyway.

Wow – that is news to me – and after reading Chockfull’s link to S. Hawking – I wanted to quote from it – then I will circle back to your comment… Hawking said “There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason.” That reminded me of some things said earlier on this thread – of religion providing the answers that you cannot (or may not) question…so in the instance you gave of multiple states having constitutional provisions barring atheists from holding an elected office – perhaps I am politically very naïve, but I thought our government had something of a separation of church and state, but what you’ve described sounds almost like these states were exercising sort of a religious authority…and I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to reduce “religion” down to its most basic level…as an interest, belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group – even if that “religion” or worldview is humanism…it should still be allowed the freedom of religion.

Maybe the Blue Book was supposed to turn your brain into toast...”this is your brain on Blue Book.”

You may already be a winner! Just take our class to find out. Please note the following disclaimers: You may already be a loser, depending on your believing. No purchase necessary - however there is a minimum required donation. You may take the class as many times as you wish, provided you help with setup, refreshments, and getting new students to class on time. Desired results may vary depending on how much you would like to think you’ve achieved. Questions, concerns, and complaints will be handled at the very, very end of your involvement with the class - presumably years from now, when you are on your deathbed wondering if you had made the wrong decision to take the class.

I wanted to revisit something in my first post, that touched on the religious exclusivism generated by wierwille – as Wikipedia states “it is a conviction about its finality and its absolute priority over competing views”- this mentality energized the sneaky gravitational force upon anyone near wierwille’s sphere of influence. By that I mean more of a proximity in frame of mind rather than physically close. This was accomplished by various indoctrination programs (WOW, Way Corps, Fellow Laborers, etc.). Perhaps a good rebuttal to wierwille’s stringent exclusivism is an account in Mark 9, verses 38 and following Where a disciple (John) told Jesus they had forbidden someone from casting out devils in his name because he was not following their group. But Jesus said don’t forbid him because he who is not against us is for us. From this account in Mark 9, some study Bibles and commentaries make reference to Numbers 11 of Eldad and Medad who had the spirit of God put upon them and were prophesying in the camp – and it appears that some folks were up in arms over that – which may have been because Eldad and Medad were expected to go to the tent or tabernacle to prophesy…maybe it was along the lines of "that's not how we do things in our special group" , I don’t know…but anyway, both Numbers 11 and Mark 9 address the issues of intolerance and narrow exclusivism – not just in the heavy-handed tactics of abusive cults but perhaps in denominationalism as well...Intolerance and exclusivism has the potential to maintain a powerful hold on followers of any group…in my humble opinion, when the influence of a group approaches a near-stranglehold effect on the soul – you’ve got the makings of tyranny. Which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities..... by Allan Bloom from The Closing of the American Mind == == == == Identifying the tendrils of manipulation is necessary in order to work on eliminating them; many things are involved – like reevaluating existing attitudes, biases, habits, goals, what motivates you…indeed, within these there are no visible guards or prison bars that one can plainly see, analyze and then form an escape plan…the manipulative tactics are embedded in the mind…I’ve found a tremendous help to recognizing and pinpointing these treacherous little ba$tards (manipulative ideas) is in simply thinking out loud – talking to someone about them – writing about it – working to articulate them. That’s one of the reasons I come to Grease Spot. It’s a great place to tool-up on critical thinking…reminds me of something I read: For most people, most of their thinking is subconscious, that is, never explicitly put into words…The problem is that when you are not aware of your thinking you have no chance of correcting it. When thinking is subconscious, you are in no position to see any problems in it. And, if you don’t see any problems in it, you won’t be motivated to change it…most people are in many ways victims of their own thinking…from a book by Richard Paul and Linda Elder Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of Your Professional and Personal Life That’s the problem when you hold to TWI’s mindset – you’re not aware of the obstacles it presents to cognitive thinking. That is why exposing the cognitive dissonance is mission critical to surviving a cult…so get it out in the open…write it down…share with someone, the thoughts, ideas, feelings, experiences, and memories you have that seem to keep you weighted down in fear, worry, regret, frustration, etc. and please remember to use wisdom and discretion of course, with what you share online in public forums. And I don’t mean to make this sound like a cakewalk – as if becoming aware of these devious thought patterns is enough. To draw on my previous analogies of physics – think about how does a rocket overcome gravity ...A rocket has to have enough power to thrust itself skyward and by achieving escape velocity it is able to push away from the Earth’s gravity...That’s not to say it takes rocket science to escape a cult…just some thinking, planning, commitment and energy on your part. Here's to a successful launch - So, to escape from the “gravitational pull” of a cult we may have to make a concerted effort to push away. How? That depends on your situation. For me, it meant resigning from my position as an area coordinator…after which I still attended fellowships in my area…which became increasingly awkward the more I reevaluated TWI doctrine and practice…there was tension and frustration as I was wanting to alert others of things I started to realize but also along with all that I was practicing some restraint since I knew I still had so much to figure out…after several months of walking this weird “tightrope” at fellowships, I quit going but kept in touch with a few folks who felt as I did and were processing things they heard about from others as well. And just to clarify, I’m not suggesting a person has to go cold turkey to escape the effect of TWI’s authority – rather, it’s more about what goes on when interacting in social settings…I think of that polarizing phrase from wierwille “when it comes to The Word, I have no friends” - which was like a Litmus test for who you chose as a friend...I recommend you throw out wierwille's twisted bit of advice…Hey, if you’re out but have some friends still in TWI – and things are still cool between you and them…if they’re not trying to love-bomb you back into that supermassive black hole…if it’s a live-and-let-live arrangement by all parties involved – then party on - who knows… down the road you may inspire some of them leave.

Please note the disclaimer in fine print: if you do not pay your exorcist bill you could get re-possessed