T-Bone

My point was that “incorruptible” is referring to the word of God and not to salvation...as perhaps a tangent of this idea - you might want to consider the context of I Peter - being born again to a living hope and called to a holy life...and you might want to consider some alternate interpretations of Genesis 3 people created in God’s image and what died in the Fall...Hebrew thought on death was that of a separation - physical death = life force separated from the body and then there is spiritual death = our spiritual nature being separated from God...in other words I believe the soul is immortal - when one speaks of going to heaven I understand that to refer to the soul’s eternal state...the 2nd death referred to in the Bible would then mean one’s soul is eternally separated from God... So to be born again - could mean to have the connection restored - one who was spiritually dead ( separated from God) - is now alive to pursue a holy calling. This is all just my opinion, of course Sorry for straying off topic and getting into some tangents - but I think in trying to understand a passage - we may have to back up and see how things fit in the bigger picture.

I think it’s also possible that the incorruptible seed mentioned in I Peter 1:23 refers to the word of God - similar to usage in Luke 8:5 a farmer went out to sow his seed...I believe the Greek for “seed” in I Peter 1:23 is “sporas” a sowing - so it could be interpreted as being born again by an act of sowing incorruptible seed - i.e. the word of God.

Poltergeist !

yeah in PFAL – didn’t wierwille say something along the lines of if you could do that it meant you’re going to heaven and all hell can’t stop you from going...well, he lived like the devil so he certainly practiced what he preached.

I’m disqualifying myself from contributing to this thread on 2 counts: I’ve never really looked into this and also not sure if I am even saved...but in keen interest I do look forward to the input of others. (- click - ) my seat belt is now fastened

Can you top this? East China has a printing company that is moving more Bibles down the production line than any one else in the world Big printer of Bibles with order of 6 or more you get words of Christ in red.

Good stuff, Taxidev ! I love the book of Romans! I tend to think of salvation as almost like a journey...a journey of faith...in my opinion wierwille taught followers to focus almost exclusively on grace - God’s work accomplished through what Christ did for us - that tunnel-vision of focus more or less ignored what God EXPECTED of those who accepted God’s invitation of grace. Maybe slightly off topic - but along the same lines of what is expected of someone who may think they are “gifted” - remember this gem: “to whom much has been given, much is required” - I’m thinking about some folks i knew in TWI that aspired to a position of leadership - with an air of superiority about themselves, who seemed to cherish a title and the recognition and seemed most comfortable leading from an armchair rather than by example...I think their idea of service is to delegate rather than demonstrate ...I think the Bible is pretty clear on what is expected of Christian leaders - and it’s mostly about serving others. The “process” of realizing our salvation is perhaps a lifetime effort. Romans 4 talks of the works of the law and James 2 speaks of the works of faith. We are NOT saved / justified etc. by the works of the law but we demonstrate our salvation / justification etc. by works of faith. Matthew 3:8 and Acts 26:20 speak of Christians bringing forth fruit that demonstrates repentance. So rather than me focusing on the idea that I am a farmer or gardener and being intent on keeping up with the latest fashion in bib-overalls - I think if farming / gardening were truly in my blood, I’d be out there in the field intently working on producing some fruit. All this is just my opinion, of course.

I’ve become so jaded of TWI’s usage of “The Word”: Moving the Word The Word in Business The Word in Music etcetera, etcetera it all was about moving a product As well as other phrases like the Word of God is the Will of God – especially with the tag line it means what it says and says what it means… Those sneaky self-assuming hypocrites ! what really turns me off about it – is that it sounds so authoritative – “The Word” – like an “in-the-beginning-was-the-Word” type of thing – it sounds so official…definitive…trustworthy…approved…authorized …but if you look past all the smoke and mirrors, what it all boiled down to was really just wierwille’s word on the matter…he didn't know squat about the biblical languages...lied about his credentials...plagiarized like it was going out of style...if his teaching of "the word" was so great - if it was indeed the rightly divided word - it should be able to stand up to some scrutiny - and it can't - it fails miserably ! and it didn't take a bunch of super-smart Bible scholars to blow him out of the water - just some simple questions forwarded by dissatisfied "customers" who experienced repeated failures of the product. and I think he mastered the fine art of bull$hit origami – he could fold and twist scripture into whatever shape he wanted to…make it say whatever he wanted “oh yeah, the word of god is the will of god – it means what it says and says what it means - - but class, you also have to remember the context, to whom it is addressed, what administration we’re dealing with, the law of believing, how spiritually advanced you are, all the chicks in the kingdom belong to the king, unto the pure all things are pure, as long as you love god and love your neighbor’s wife – ahem – I mean, love your neighbor, you can do as you full well please…so class, in I Corinthians 6 where it talks about adultery – it means spiritual adultery – not physical adultery. That’s where you’re shacking up with other gods…so you see the word means what it says and says what it means… unless I tell you otherwise…that’s why you should master my Blue Book VP Tells Me So”. For me "moving the word" in the context of TWI and offshoots really means promoting wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice…that has about as much authority as a bowel movement…same old $hit, different toilet...this has all been just my opinion, of course.

We’re making delusions fun again !

Wow – I never heard of that…how exciting - - - not! ...well…I never turned a page for any of those knuckleheads…and don’t know if I could say I turned over a new leaf since I left The Way Tree...I ain't a leaf any more…let’s just say my life has turned the corner since I left TWI.

Why pay for insurance when you can pay for a class that will make you think you don’t need it.

Ever worry about making ends meet? Are you fearful of life getting more hectic, even perilous and out of control? TWI can provide all that for you

We’re like Scientology... but without the celebrities

Last night Tonto and I watched several episodes from the first season. I was so captivated by the stories that afterwards i had to analyze why it held my interest the whole time. We had both read several books on Scientology and so were familiar with their tenets, control tactics, and certain followers’ personal stories of abuse and harassment...so much is so similar - just the abuse of power is termed differently - as it’s already been pointed out on Grease Spot ...for example to “declare” someone an enemy of the Church of Scientology is equivalent to TWI’s “mark and avoid”. The appeal of this series is different for everyone...I imagine those who have never been deeply involved in an abusive and exploitative cult are just fascinated and maybe somewhat incredulous that anyone would fall for this stuff (oh the good old daze of the young and naive - )...for me, the series is like preaching to the choir (Sea Org = way corps) ; as each personal story unfolded and they talked about their recovery from a cult - there was something resonating within me...looking passed the doctrine and terminology - maybe it was an empathetic connection I guess - that I find healing, encouragement and strength from folks having a similar experience.

Skyrider, enough can’t be said for the truly good leaders like yourself ... ...Plenty has been said about the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich - - I mean the Revival and Restoration of the Turd Reich.

“Maybe I'm not sure how uncertainty is being used here” now that is really funny all by itself ! “But I would argue awareness of the fact that there is always uncertainty makes one aware of the infinite” and I think you have something there – maybe that’s why I lean toward a Christian agnosticism – I like to remain open-minded about things unknown since dare be a whole lotta dat out dare.

In my first post I said this thread is all about the deceitful, manipulative, and underhanded methods that The Way International frequently employs…However, I believe there were some good people in it when I was involved – as there probably still are today – and so I wanted to mention the difference between a manipulator and a motivator (an honest person of influence). I found this article that addresses the difference and thought some folks might find it interesting – so from Psychology Today article are the following excerpts: “…You can think of it as the difference between influence and manipulation. I checked these words out in the dictionary and actually they are pretty close in definition. They both involve “producing an effect in another person without apparent exertion of force.” But manipulation is defined as “having control over others by having the ability to influence their behavior (emotions) and their actions so things can go in the manipulator’s favor” and “to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.” In my experience, a manipulator tends to play on others’ fears, greed (a form of fear) or guilt. Those being manipulated feel pressured, trapped, or angry. In contrast, the word influence has an ancient root in the Middle English word for “emanation of the stars.” Definitions include “the emanation of moral or spiritual force.” People who are influential tend to be charismatic and admirable. We are inspired by them and aspire to be like them. We feel good around them. (Of course, not all influences are good, but have you noticed that we need to say “bad” influence to clarify a negative effect, but we never have to add “bad” to manipulation?) When I think of manipulation, I think of someone who cares only about his own needs, a person who puts his self-interest above that of others. For instance, toddlers, who are naturally self-centered and convinced of their own omnipotence, can be excellent manipulators. They’re savvy enough to have figured out Mom or Dad’s hot buttons and they’ll push those buttons relentlessly to get exactly what they want... …Compared to manipulation, influence has a more positive connotation that takes into consideration others’ needs and desires. As parents, we want to influence our kids to be healthy and safe. As friends, we want to influence our friends to happy and fulfilled. As business owners, we want to influence our clients to be successful and prosperous. We want what is best for those in our “sphere of influence.” ” == == == == == some differences I see is that a manipulator is dishonest and self-centered – only concerned with achieving what they want – merely using the needs and desires of others as a means to compel them toward that end. Whereas a motivator…someone influential, considers the needs and desires of others and works to help them define, focus and achieve what they really want. Along those lines I found an article in Christianity Today on motivation versus manipulation: “It has been said the difference between motivation and manipulation is the quenching of thirst. If so, the key for leaders is to look for thirsty people and identify their thirst. Effective motivators ask themselves, What kind of water do I have to satisfy that kind of thirst?” I tend to think a motivator is an honest person with a broad altruistic streak running down their back – maybe that’s how they recognize a desire…a thirst or an interest that is already present within someone – something they want to achieve – and the motivator wants to honestly help them get there. A manipulator camouflages their goals under the guise of appearing as things that you want... Why did I join the way corps? I wanted to grow spiritually, become a stronger believer, and find out what my special calling was… and how was that achieved? I’ll tell you how! By re-hashing PFAL, hitching to LEAD / rock climbing, the work program, stringing chairs, getting corps sponsorship together, corps night teachings of "the word" (ahem...and I quote "doctor wierwille said this...doctor wierwille said that.." ), bless patrol, going light-bearers, research papers focused on regurgitating PFAL… spiritual growth? naw, life is slowly choked out by the stifling stagnation of spiritual darkness (if what you think is "light" or illumination in your mind - and it's actually darkness - how great is that darkness! Because you think that is light !!! ) becoming a stronger believer - translation = being closed-minded and wierwille-centric; knowing PFAL like the back of my hand - which has the crib notes for all 12 sessions. find out what my special calling was - - heavy revelation here - ta-dah ! I can aspire to be a top notch flunky for The Way International. But when you look past the veneer of Christianity, past the mindless repetition of busywork (those cheap ba$tards) , and see that you've hung all your aspirations on wierwille and company blowing smoke up you’re a$$ - then you realize you’ve been had by manipulators – welcome to the world of cult indoctrination TWI-style...those supermassive a$$holes !

I guess you’re right – such a silly notion may be unnecessary…and I certainly did not feel forced to choose between slim options… maybe it’s a despicable-attitudes-call-for-desperate-measures thing…I dunno. I would also like to add that you probably did not know me or what I was like when I was in TWI…I feel my current attitude helps me get in a better frame of mind socially – where I’m more apt to listen and learn from others – especially those who do not hold to the same beliefs that I do – cuz it’s not like I’ve got it all figured out or even feel slightly confident that I’m on the right track.

On a personal note - since I left TWI, I have not come to any conclusion on the “once saved always saved” issue - so I lean toward an err-on-the-side-of-caution stance regarding my own salvation in that I’m really not sure if I am saved, so I continue in trying to follow / practice my Lord’s teachings ...sometimes I have this silly notion that maybe this uncertainty is a good thing overall in that it keeps me humble and respectful toward God and others...perhaps the biggest sins I realized I had committed over and over again when I was in TWI were those of pride, arrogance, and an elite sense of spiritual superiority over those not in The Way International... I wonder if there is some protracted process implied in a passage like Matthew 24:13 he who endures to the end will be saved ...and other verses like Philippians 2:12 work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... ...I know all that stuff about Christians being saved by what God accomplished for us through Jesus Christ - but I wonder if “the road” to Jesus as my Lord and Savior could be a rather long and arduous journey - and I also think of verses like Matthew 3:8 and Acts 26:20 that speak of us bringing forth fruit that proves our repentance - one could infer that this indicates a protracted process is at play...maybe as we look back on our Christian lifestyle after some time at it - we can garner some sort of assurance we’re on the right track...at least for me it is - at least sometimes I feel I’m on the same page as my Lord - a lot better than when I was in my cavalier “way-daze-of-assumed-spiritual-elitism “. so maybe some self-doubt is a good thing...we question ourselves...we work on self-improvement...and then we do gain some confidence through the whole experience .

If I may adapt a couple of familiar phrases (knowledge is power and power corrupts ) to wierwille’s licentious lifestyle - - I would say that perverted knowledge has the power to corrupt the conscience. In light of his knack for twisting scripture I think wierwille’s doctrine and practice had some virulent strains of dualism and Gnosticism in his hodge podge of theology. Dualism: wierwille may have held to an extreme literal interpretation of Romans 7 - the spirit is perfect but the flesh is totally corrupt - and I am tempted to think he had an attitude of “and never the two shall meet” so why even be concerned about what’s done in the flesh...I believe Paul - in Romans 7 as well as in many other passages and by other writers as well - clearly shows there is a war often raging on WITHIN us - and that rather than give up, we are to fight against temptations and all manner of personal weaknesses . Gnosticism: wierwille sold folks the idea of a special knowledge that would supposedly enable them to unleash the power of god in their lives. “What power we have if we only knew it”. That is one of the essential underpinnings in PFAL, the Advanced Class and all the other pointless classes in between - . wierwille’s go-to phrases for justifying any of his immoral behavior reflect his “gnostic “ confidence- the supposedly deep and mature knowledge he had of “the word” - - things like “I’ve so renewed my mind that this is not sin to me” , or “unto the pure all things are pure” , and “the love of god thinketh no evil.” That is the “power” of perverted knowledge - ( or the perversion of knowledge if that makes more sense) it supposedly trumps the moral dictates of scripture and becomes a powerful sedative to the conscience.

Bi tch Perfect 3

I think LCM didn’t have whatever finesse wierwille had to charm and manipulate folks. Lacking finesse he resorted to force - bully tactics.

And as a follow up to WordWolf’s line of thought: you can’t teach an old TWI fool new dogma.

I still prefer actual books over electronic books - although I do think the convenience and space-saving factors of e-books are a huge plus...for fiction, general literature, stuff on writing, music, drawing, philosophy, history and such I will get on Kindle (my wife is a big proponent of going to the library-and I’ll probably get into that when I retire) ...but certain books on art, illustrated books on science , history, warfare as well as select commentaries and systematic theologies I prefer them in hardback editions. While I do think the Internet is a rich resource of information like how-to videos - I don’t get into the social media thing - don’t have Facebook, Twitter, etc...I get it what Chockfull was saying - some folks get online and come across like they’ve figured out the true interpretation of the Bible, or the inside scoop on whatever it is they’re talking about. I mostly look up movie reviews, Wikipedia plot spoilers (so I’m ahead of the game when I go to a show - darn my slow processor ) and of course keep up on what’s happening in the news - both kinds - real and fake