T-Bone

Lemme see if I got this right - so the first rule of fight club...er..uhm...I mean this dispensational thread is there is no talking about wierwille’s plagiarism

Well sorry - the way you worded it was confusing - “do you see yourself as dead already” - that would be silly to ask of someone who is physically dead - would it not? But nonetheless - you asked at the end of your post - “so what’s left? To live for him” - - in light of II Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. It seems to me there is some moral code applied in the next life to what we are due to receive based on the verbiage “good or bad”.

I guess you’re referring to spiritual death - but I see nothing in NT docs to suggest that whether one is spiritually (or if you prefer metaphorically ) dead or not - we are all subject to moral laws - otherwise there would be no need to remind folks they should not lie, steal, etc. as we find throughout NT docs.

Way to go Wildcat ! I think Pope Francis is doing a lot of good for the Roman Catholic Church…My sister is very involved in her parish and has commented on the changes and reform he has inspired.

Skyrider, that’s weird and creepy of wierwille to do that…I’m glad your parents outlived the supposed prophecy of doom…imagine if you would have countered that with the nifty PFAL-if-you-got-your-ears-clogged-you’ll-be hearing-from-heaven-another-way old switcheroo - - by snapping right back at him “God’s not saying my parents will go but that you will go – you’re my ‘father in the word’, remember?” == == == == yeah I miss my dad too - - and I'm thankful we got to connect after years of my being involved in a cult and even through his PTSD from the war. Happy Father's Day to all !!!

He offers basically Preterism - and depending on one’s view of Preterism , the Book of Revelation can be interpreted as all or most of the events have already happened - speaker says Nero was the beast - and his “mark” on your person was what gave you access into the market place.

Just my opinion here: Rather than covenant theology, dispensationalism or any other theological framework that depends on what some say seems to be implied in scripture - I lean toward a much simpler approach that depends on what is stated explicitly in scripture. In practical terms - if we’re talking about what God expects of believers in any “time period” - I think Jesus summed it up nicely in Matthew 22: Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” The command to love God and neighbor doesn’t leave anyone out or snub anyone because they got a bad break in a covenant...and it does not issue a hall pass to sin-like-the-devil-in-the-age-of-grace either ...it does appear to be very concise and clear instructions on what is the priority in other NT docs as well: Romans 13:10; I Corinthians 13; Galatians 5.14; Revelation 2:4. From what I understand of the Bible - Jesus Christ’s work has freed us from the ceremonial law - but not God’s moral law...but even living under the ceremonial laws, love for God and neighbor was clearly still the priority as seen in Jesus’ words to teachers of the law, Pharisees and hypocrites in Matthew 23:23, 24 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.“

Java Jane, thanks for sharing about Seth - and I am blown away how his project deals with “the nonsense” ! I think it will be awesome!!! I looked around on his website - and all his work is very interesting...what talent ! an artist, a curator and a writer - I thought one of his articles really does a great job of expressing the desire of an artist to get his work out there - Confessions of a Wayward Artist

Then there’s the double entendre of E = MC 2 Elsa equals Mambo Cups twice as big.

Sexual deviance has a number of qualifiers - see Online reference one of which is consent - or rather lack thereof ...obvious examples are rape and sexual molestations ...historically and culturally it is specific...another qualifier is that it usually assumes some erotic behavior for gratification is at odds with what is acceptable by a community...in the case you referred to in Corinthians - sexual relations with his dad’s wife was unacceptable not only to the Christian community - but to even non-Christians in the area.

On the contrary - unless one wishes to ignore the history of adultery and sexual predations of wierwille and other top leadership of TWI - which is something that a lot of these offshoots choose to ignore as part of the legacy from their “father in the word”. hypocrisy and cover-ups still flourish within wierwille-centric mindsets.That stuff in Corinthians is still relevant today! In PFAL wierwille had the audacity to say the Bible means what it says and says what it means - I guess the exception was when it came to excusing his own despicable behavior in light of sexual promiscuity passages like in Corinthians...golly gee - he’s gotta be one of the “best” hypocrites I ever knew!

I tend to agree with all you’ve said...and for whatever reason some jocks have a knee-jerk reaction, indicates to me there may be some insecurity involved -if anything just to preserve the macho image. Just to elaborate on my previous post - perhaps I should have developed my thoughts better - sorry that I did not fine tune it - I was thinking lcm’s “freak out” was more than the typical jock-knee-jerk reaction... having mentioned his oppressive “father in the word” - wierwille - I was wondering about lcm becoming aware of and then “making peace with” wierwille’s predatory impulses...maybe lcm’s homophobic bandwagon helped to assuage any bad feelings he had from following in his “father’s footsteps “ as well as the insecuritiy from situations like his wife “leaving” him for another woman - so maybe it’s along the same lines as you said he “kicked the dog to feel better”. also the end of the quote from Scientic article did caution there are many reasons for anti-gay sentiments...I was wondering more along the lines of what was it about wierwille’s influence that got lcm to be so aggressive on it; who knows...maybe lcm used it as a diversionary tactic to get any attention off his own behavior...not sure on any of this - just thinking out loud...was I too loud?

This all makes me wonder if somewhere deep down in his psyche (especially insecurities ) he felt threatened by homosexuals. In this one article I read (link is at the end of my post) they said “The prejudice of homophobia may also stem from authoritarian parents, particularly those with homophobic views as well, the researchers added "This study shows that if you are feeling that kind of visceral reaction to an out-group, ask yourself, 'Why?'" co-author Richard Ryan, a professor of psychology at the University of Rochester, said in a statement. "Those intense emotions should serve as a call to self-reflection."... …”Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much,'" Ryan told LiveScience. "In addition, it appears that sometimes those who would oppress others have been oppressed themselves, and we can have some compassion for them too, they may be unaccepting of others because they cannot be accepting of themselves." Ryan cautioned, however, that this link is only one source of anti-gay sentiments.” == == == With the article mentioning that homophobia may sometimes stem from the influence of authoritarian parents and the person being oppressed - I thought of the variety of consequences to followers from wierwille’s megalomania...his authoritarian leadership...his heavy handed rule over the way corps...also of interest in this article is their mentioning "Sometimes people are threatened by gays and lesbians because they are fearing their own impulses, in a sense they 'doth protest too much" … ...yeah, makes me wonder what wierwille thought of his own behavior if he was ever in a self-reflective frame of mind...I know nothing of any psyche stuff...just wanted to mention some things I thought about. Link to article in Scientific American

It’s possible “the scripture cannot be broken” in John 10:35 refers to something other than inerrancy...Barnes’ notes on the Bible says of that phrase - the authority of scripture is final - it cannot be set aside...it appears Jesus was defending himself against the charge of blasphemy by appealing to the Old Testament - Psalm 82:6... look at other places where “broken” is used in reference to breaking the law of scripture : John 5:18 - “not only was he breaking the Sabbath “ and John 7:23 “circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses is not broken”...it I could be wrong but I take the phrase to mean something similar to how we view our country’s laws...no one is above the law - it is the final authority- no one can set it aside...can laws be broken ? Yes people do it all the time. Sorry for this aside on another interpretation of “scripture cannot be broken” that does not equate it with inerrancy - but like a lot of other interesting points on this thread, maybe it warrants a whole new thread... == == == now getting back to the topic - I would like to ask a few questions - which have been stated earlier by others as well: What is the biblical definition of “salvation “? What does it mean for the Christian? How does one know whether or not they are saved? Is salvation something that can be lost?

your post inspired a little plagiarism...here's a remix of the lyrics from Gilligan's Isle...(excuse the messed up meter - this was a rush job ) Homophobe’s Aisle Remember back when stringing chairs Meant keeping the aisle straight If this cult handed out free libidos They would be full of hate First prez was a flimflam preying man Successor wore a tutu Kind of odd for a homophobe When criticizing you Criticizing you The preaching started getting tough The Shepherd’s pies were boss It was out of fear for this clueless crew guys’ legs would never cross guys’ legs would never cross homo-purge throughout the aisles of Rock of Ages ‘95 with Doofus Brow being a dick, Top homophobe and hypocrite The MVP athlete of devil spirits here on Homophobe’s Aisle

Great post Rocky !!!! thanks for the info / links - I never get tired of stuff on critical thinking

Bingo , Grace !!!! thought your post deserved it

One of the most helpful things anyone can say that may nudge a cult follower to take their first steps toward freedom - is something Leah says at the beginning of each episode, and it’s put forth as a simple challenge...it’s almost like daring someone who is absolutely convinced their belief system is bulletproof, to pick up a loaded gun and prove it...Leah says something like - if your religion is so great and is doing all these wonderful things then it should be able to stand up to some questions. And really what I think is most effective - is to get the cult follower to ask the questions themselves...they are used to outsiders challenging their beliefs - yes, usually (depending on their length and level of involvement) they have been indoctrinated so as to be thoroughly prepared for any confrontation to what they hold near and dear to their hearts. Perhaps one of the things cults deem mission critical to control is the constant reinforcement of “defense mechanisms” planted in the mind through indoctrination - that is really one of the few means they have to make you think the tenets of your faith are bulletproof. I think it takes a very deliberate and brave act of the will to momentarily disarm even one of those internal defense mechanisms - to ignore what the cult says is forbidden to do or think - and fire away at a target. I remember in PFAL the session about the fall of man: what’s the first thing the serpent got Eve to do? To question God’s Word... that little baby is probably one of the main components of TWI’s indoctrination - it worked in my case for 12 years of my involvement ...think about it... ...I mean really think about that...go ahead - think ! If I questioned something in corps training or a teaching - It’s almost like a little pop-up thought automatically starts playing in my head “uh oh, remember the road downhill - Eve questioned the word” or maybe an old friend says something derogative about TWI - “uh oh , the devil is working through that person to get me to doubt the word.” The truth is - TWI is NOT so great and has zilch on the wonderful things scoreboard - so it is totally incapable of standing up to some questions! Remember kids, guns don’t kill cults - but questioning minds do.

Thanks for sharing your “footnotes” Java Jane - I am always fascinated by how folks had to deal with the escalating madness after we left in ‘86. == == == FYI : as I side note, concerning posting by smartphone - I’m not sure what brand you have but I have an iPhone and will often draft a post in “notes” - then later copy and paste on Grease Spot - and before i submit post I click on “paste as plain text instead” at bottom under the post box - this straightens out any format / font issues...it’s an easy way to compose offline and “notes” helps on spelling with autocorrect.

Which brings us back to what I said before :“If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!” (Matthew 6: 23). In other words, if you think wierwille has enlightened you – then you really are in a heap of supermassive darkness. “ Ah, will the circle be unbroken, my friends - or rather - will the vicious cycle of wierwille-centric doctrine & practice continue to draw followers ever inward to darkness? Unfortunately, If one doesn’t break free from the wierwille orbit - the answer is yes.

Just my opinion: I think noting the chronology of when New Testament documents were written is important in that it helps to verify historical authenticity; but personally, I think the order of the canon makes for a very compelling and somewhat linear narrative; though the order of the canon may not indicate the actual sequence of when each document was written – it's possible one of the intentions of canonical order "committees" was to suggest the doctrinal importance of each writer’s spiritual journey - - in that it begins with Jesus Christ’s life, words and works in the Gospels.

Reflecting on where my head was at around the time that I left - I was a mixed bag of thoughts and emotions - and I’m sure some of that dread of the unknown while I was on the verge of leaving TWI was from those manipulative lies that were sown into my thought processes; was I about to commit spiritual suicide? What is truly surprising though - it seemed to be my most darkest hour - yet it was about to be an eye-opening dawn of true freedom...it takes some time but your eyes will adjust to the light (meaning your intellect and emotions will eventually catch up with reality - so relatively speaking life life gets a little less complicated and difficult ). funny how wierwille’s foreboding words of oblivion - that any “blessed” or “abundant” qualities in my life would disappear as I with full knowledge supposedly turned my back on god - and dove head first into some black hole of unbelief - what a surprise to find out in choosing to leave TWI - that one brave “little “ decision enabled me to escape TWI’s supermassive black hole!

Strange indeed...there were a few other guys that served at the head table in Rome City...though I was trying to be funny about Chockfull’s remark - I do agree with his and your statement that it was another way to target their prey... looking back I do remember several ladies in my corps who were routinely called upon to serve head table, or back “stage” of the Chapel - a few I knew pretty well and after some time they seemed to have become a little more sedate... withdrawn...not really sure how to describe my impression of a subtle change in their demeanor.

Sorry to inform you that I was a server for the head table at Rome City...though I am not female I like to think that I was cute.

That’s a tough one Penguin2...you certainly have my thoughts and prayers right now...going on my own experience i feel that anyone that gets into the law of believing, the health and wealth gospel , the power of the tongue, etc. will tend to put themselves under needless pressure in hopes of achieving the desired result... I do get the idea of having a fighter attitude but I don’t think that means to beat up on yourself...I recently saw a news spot about a young girl with a prosthetic leg who was a gymnast - and she was doing things that were amazingly nimble on high beam and floor mats...at the end in an interview I don’t remember how she put it exactly- but she was looking at her prosthetic leg and said rather than succumb to self-pity she said something like “this is the way it is now and this is what I’m going to do about it”... I remember some of the ways life is portrayed in the Bible (from Rick Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life” ) is that life is a test, an assignment, and a journey...for some biblical inspiration on having a fighter attitude I look to the lives and tough circumstances of folks like Peter, Paul and of course Jesus Christ...I don’t think the fight is really about beating down the negatives or pretending all is well...it’s about seeing things as they really are now and deciding what we’re going to do (and think) about it so we can carry on.