T-Bone

I hear ya on that! Ages ago, we went to a holy communion service – two way corps “lightbearers” were conducting the service; I don’t think they hit the right tone and it came off as almost like a magic show - all they had to add was something like “my lovely assistant will now change this wine and bread into…” – so yeah there were a few folks keeping the giggles suppressed…afterward I saw my wife and her good friend - both crying and shoulders shuddering in a back bedroom where everyone left their coats…I thought they were praying or ministering or some healing was going on after the service so I left the room…anyway, guess I shouldn’t have criticized how they run the whole thing cuz obviously some folks "got delivered"…my wife told me later they couldn’t contain their laughter anymore and just lost it in the back bedroom.

that's funny RottieGrrrl, thanks for sharing... here's one of news anchors overcome by giggles after one of them mispronounces "Twitter"...to me it sounds like she says Titter $hit news anchors have bad case of the giggles over "Titter"

yeah Rocky - I agree. I think of Twinky as looking at a bigger picture – “in the Christian world” as she put it; from meeting her at the Texas BBQ and going on things she shares in her posts, I really believe she is a woman with a mission AND with a compassionate heart for service; some of the stuff she shares about her street pastoring sounds like it could be in a new chapter in the book of Acts. I’m not qualified to speak about gift ministries or know much about them – but as far as I’m concerned she’s got something special up her sleeve – I believe she definitely has a calling...of course she brings a lot of good "things" here also - let's not forget that. folks like Skyrider and Don’t Worry often focus on all things way-world; they’ve got that warrior ethos – never leave anyone behind…they pack some serious heat - - as well as some serious therapy. They are the big guns that expose and obliterate the hypocrisy of “those lying, thieving weasels” (as Don’t Worry calls them); then there’s the healing side of their ministries (there – I said it… and I’ll say it again through an amp that goes up to 11 ) – then there’s the healing side of their compassionate ministries reaching out to those who were hurt by “those lying, thieving weasels”. I hope I haven’t embarrassed you all in some way – just thought I pass along some praise and encouragement. like Skyrider was saying the extent of the consequences is relative to one’s life and experiences…this stuff may not matter much in the Christian world at large - but it matters to me - since part of my life was in way-world. ...every once and awhile I get to feeling down about how I devoted 12 years of my life to a cult and however much mental baggage I’ve been dragging around since then. There’s the shame…embarrassment… the… stigma that some folks associate with cults…sometimes I don’t mind that…maybe that keeps me on my toes…maybe it’s something I’ve got in the habit of doing from technical work – where I double, triple and quadruple check some things cuz I know I’m not perfect – me or someone else is going to screw up or a part will fail – so be prepared. I often look at it as a challenge to do my best critical thinking if we happen to get in a doctrinal or philosophical discussion..i know I’m rambling here – but trust me I’ll bring it back to this thread in a minute or two. I’ve always tried to live my life like an open book – I have nothing to hide – I’ve really tried to live a good Christian life while in TWI and afterwards too! On occasion I have even shared with co-workers of my experiences in a cult as some tough lessons on the importance of a Christ-centered faith and giving heed to one’s authentic-self…the machinations of TWI went so counter to anything that had to do with your authentic-self… some of that crap from the mouths of those lying thieving weasels was really just blowing smoke up my a$$ - to make me think I was destined for greatness. I used to think I’d better go in the corps cuz God has some big plans for me…maybe I’ve got a gift ministry…I tried to picture myself as being the perfect PFAL believer spreading blessings and good fortune wherever I went…alright…about to reconnect to this topic in 3..2…1… If I would have stayed in TWI I believe I would have been groomed to follow – on a small scale – wierwille’s power grabbing style: I think I was a restless and unfulfilled leader - going through the motions of handling my TWI assignment – oh the drudgery...trying to act enthusiastic about moving “the word” – I’m wondering if that’s the equivalent of a woman faking orgasm.…and I was a searching opportunist – taking the same classes again and again, going to advances, special events, joining programs…looking for direction and opportunity to advance spiritually – whatever the hell that means…I was even like my Plagiarizing “mentor “ – making PFAL my own, writing songs about it; looking for other verses to prove some point wierwille had made…and listening to the ensnaring supplanter - I learned to choose TWI’s “household” over family, friends and whatever I was taught in the Roman Catholic Church…in ignorance I endorsed that usurping authoritarian…and revered the consummate cult leader – I volunteered to be isolated, immersed, indoctrinated so I could teach and recruit others. Reflecting on my life since I left TWI: I have such a sense of fulfilment from just trying to be a good husband, dad and competent technician. That may be underrated in some folks’ book but that’s my “ministry” and I’m damn proud of it! I also get a sense of fulfillment and some peace of mind from Grease Spot. To me it’s a far cry from getting the halfway-house-treatment by well-meaning Christians who try to take me on as their next project – that has happened several times over the years in different places where I’ve worked. I can figure out a lot of $hit myself, thank you very much – but there’s nothing like the cyber-camaraderie of folks who have survived a cult. Sorry for the long post, major detour and cuss words but I sure do feel better. Sweet dreams all – nighty night.

If/when you decide to come back I am curious as to what your criteria is to determine who is “wackier”. online definitions of the word “wacky” list several usages: funny or amusing in slightly odd or peculiar way; strange in a pleasing and exciting or silly way; absurdly or amusingly eccentric or irrational; crazy. Just a guess on my part - but I’m thinking you meant irrational, or not logical, groundless, unjustifiable - but feel free to correct me if I’m wrong...and since your post does suggest you are somewhat familiar with “TWI or any of the offshoots” I was wondering if you could explain why you think any of them are less wacky or less irrational than the majority of posters at Grease Spot...and for that matter as a baseline, perhaps you could name another group - maybe it’s the one you’re with - who you think are not wacky at all...evidently you have some litmus test to determine where one is placed on the wacky spectrum. Anyway, you’re welcome to come back anytime. Peace!

Thanks Skyrider and Don’t Worry - love your posts - anytime you guys get into analyzing wierwille / programs / beginnings - and also put things in historical context, it’s all quality stuff - as good any top notch non-fiction best seller! And it means a lot to me personally - since I was involved in it for a number of years...kinda helps to wrap my mind around what the hell happened.

wierwille is dead - Annual A$$hole Status Report of 1985

Waysider, lots of great points and questions with your posts and others! I do think TWI / wierwille focused too much on the Pauline Epistles...and I don’t think Paul was a con man ...I tend to give all scripture equal weight in doctrine and practice - and since I left TWI , I try to check out a variety of viewpoints as well as use some common sense in coming by an opinion on something. That goes for doctrine (or theory) but even more important to me is the consequence or practical impact a certain doctrine may generate. To elaborate on the common sense aspect of my criteria regarding speaking in tongues / manifestations of the spirit- I am sort of a cessationist - don’t think I’ve ever witnessed the real thing - but I think it’s possible God can energize such things as he sees fit...I do think there’s a lot of con men / women out there who capitalize on folks who seek such things...another reason I lean toward being a cessationist goes along with what you said about folks back in Paul’s day not having a way to verify if someone was a legitimate spokesperson for God; I believe the manifestations were part of God’s verification process for that time - maybe going along the lines of Old Testament stuff - if the thing does not come to pass the “prophet” who said it is a false one...I also tend to think if those signs miracles and wonders were so prevalent today as they were in biblical times you wouldn’t need the Internet as much to check out if something was real - just turn on the local news or step out your door and see what’s happening “in your neck of the woods”. I also wonder if wierwille in his delusions identified with Paul (in his conversion / hearing an audible voice and like Paul counting his Pharisee training and knowledge of the OT as dung / wierwille hauling off his theological library to the dump and dedicating his ministry to reading nothing but “the word “)... and so his delusional fixation necessitated a fabrication of legendary / biblical proportions - that he would be God’s man for teaching “the word” like it hasn’t been known since Paul’s day. ...I can identify with Paul’s conversion too. Riding on my really tall donkey named WTMSTRBTBB (yeah I know hard to pronounce- it stands for wierwille tells me so : the reality behind the Blue Book) - one day I was violently thrown off that dumba$$ when I heard a voice - looking around I saw no one and realized it was my own voice saying “ after all the stuff you’ve found out and figured out - are you still going to follow that con man?” So I said to myself, I said says I “I’m outta here” and once more the voice of common sense said to me “what thou doest do quickly” ...weird...sometimes my common sense speaks in King James.

Great post Skyrider!!! It makes a lot of sense - that a compelling force behind wierwille’s ever tightening grip of control was a fear of folks not sticking around - like in the earlier days, when folks heard his spiel but went back to their churches.

Thanks for sharing, Becoming Me ! I love your name…it reminds me of what many of us strive for after leaving an homogenizing cult – allowing our authentic-self to disentangle us from TWI’s straitjacket...it can be a long and slow process - - it's different for everyone since we are all unique individuals. Many things you’ve mentioned in your post have resonated so much with me. One was mentioning counseling. It wasn’t until about 10 years after I left TWI that I went to a professional counselor. I unloaded a ton of regrets, frustrations, failures…well…uhm - - let’s just say it was one huge messy pile of angst at my first session. The counselor’s wise words have stuck with me through the following sessions and beyond – to this very day; he said “you’ve got to stop beating yourself up over this stuff.” I think sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. Alas, I have found the saboteur – it is me! When you mentioned baby steps it reminded of one of my fav funny movies What About Bob? , Bill Murray plays Bob who tries to follow his psychoanalyst’s (Leo played by Richard Dreyfuss) “baby steps” advice – but as the story unfolds we see Bob relates better to other folks with their own problems than Leo does using his cold clinical approach; I love towards the latter part of the film where Bob misinterprets Leo acting out a grudge against him as “death therapy”…I think Grease Spot is a pretty cool environment where you may find someone sharing about trying baby steps at something new – a new career, new hobby, a new direction in their journey through life... whatever. (here's some DVD bonus features) What About Bob? Baby Steps What About Bob? I'm sailing ...by the way, I'm not knocking the baby steps idea - I think it's smart to set small, realistic short term goals; and I'm not knocking professional counselors either - I appreciate first hand how they have really helped me...I just love the movie "What About Bob?" and wanted to bring some levity to a heavy talk...again, thanks for sharing and I look forward to your input at Grease Spot. == == == == You mentioning the pseudo-vigilance is a big deal: “Another part of growing up that still affects me is hyper-vigilance about “danger.” The idea that the devil was out to get us; and if you are “out of alignment and harmony” you’ll be outside of God’ protection;” …I’ve spent most of my adult career in security and life-safety technology – and whenever I reflect on my former TWI mindset – I’m embarrassed to admit how naïve I was to ignore the security and safety concerns / threats of the real world while having a false sense of security within my imaginary protective bubble. On your last point: “I was a true believer. I did the things you were supposed to do. I toed the line. I put my heart and soul into it. And all I got was this broken spirit. “ I can totally relate to also. Years ago I broke my left hand in a rollover accident. I am right handed – but after therapy and healing over time – my left hand is stronger than my right hand. Go figure…my point is how you’ll find your critical thinking skills become stronger as you exercise them – sort of like therapy for atrophied muscles… …and on a side note to that – not sure where you’re at on your beliefs right now – so I’m just sharing how I use what was “broken” in my faith here at Grease Spot or wherever I cross paths with a wounded soul. It’s kinda like Bill Murray’s Bob character – it’s the familiar experience of being hurt through betrayal, deception, manipulation and such that enables us to empathize with others who have gone through something similar or have felt the same emotions…I think when someone who has been in a cult talks about what it was like and how they were able to break free of that – their message…their compassion really connects with someone in need - - probably a lot more than some stuffy teaching on the false prophets and wolves of Matthew 7

love that bit !!!! ...ya know...I've got just the car for you

Welcome to Grease Spot, Becoming ! Hassan’s book is great...another great one (- which you’ve probably heard of since you say you’ve lurked here for awhile - ) is Penworks’ Undertow I’ve found many of her experiences very relatable... ...as is Grease Spot - a great process of give and take goes on here...I left TWI in ‘86 - though a long time ago, I still want to share my experience as well as hear what others have to say...I think the insight, empathy, healing, encouragement, etc. that happens here goes along the lines of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts .

Reading Rocky’s post on pyramid schemes - made me think of another angle on the word “Antichrist “ in the title of this thread - in the Greek “anti” could mean not only “against” and “opposite of” but also “in place of”...as in - the Way Tree in place of Christ or perhaps even the body of Christ...some passages come to mind: wierwille’s teaching of the word taking the place of the absent Christ reminds me of another Jesus / another gospel in II Corinthians 11 that warns of being contaminated from the simplicity or exclusiveness that is in Christ. Such is the way of any cult leader - like wierwille who used the Bible as a means to his dark agenda...to take folks captive through “philosophy and empty deception “ as it’s put in Colossians 2 where deceived Christians are also told to let no one keep on defrauding them through financial and social harm...(or for those who prefer something that sounds biblical - let no one cheat you out of any temporal or eternal blessings). ...wierwille’s insidious legacy is as virulent as ever in any group that thinks his doctrine and practice are still cool...yes what’s obviously missing from wierwille’s legacy is Christ ! Indeed wierwille’s doctrine and practice does take the place of the “absent “ Christ. The Pyramid Sceme was the perfect business model for wierwille - recruit followers by promising them how much they would gain by recruiting others - the old “receive-retain-release” idea...similar to “giving and receiving “ ...I remember another of wierwille’s “gems” in PFAL along these lines “ the reason the Dead Sea is dead is because it has an inlet but no outlet”...in my opinion all these ideas suggest a follower can’t just sit there and do nothing after taking the class - it’s only when one “gives it away” (share what you’ve learned - get others signed up for the next class, and give of your time, money and resources) that you will see a return on your investment. as the Wikipedia link suggests the futility of pyramid schemes (here applied to TWI) - as recruiting multiplies, enlisting new way followers becomes more difficult - with most existing members seeing little if any profit - thus in the long haul the pyramid scheme is unsustainable!

Yeah and I think the Way Tree with wierwille’s words given priority and importance over the words of Christ - it’s a counterfeit! TWI followers might as well be claiming “I am of wierwille !” - reminds me of I Corinthians 3 But as I Cor. 3 states - there is no other stable platform upon which to build a Christian life other than what’s ALREADY been provided in Jesus Christ... ...it’s no wonder that the Way Tree could ever be anything other than the bad tree of Matthew 7

Don’t Worry mentioned earlier that “dispensationalism” is man-made – that’s true and I would say the same for systematic theology and doctrine in general…I think organizing of anything is perhaps a natural response of our curiosity and a desire to understand…it’s how people attempt to construct a framework to arrange and interpret the data…perhaps one of the first forms of a nomenclature type discipline mentioned in the Bible is Genesis2:19: Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. If indeed God put humans on the earth to rule and I guess be good stewards of it all – perhaps Genesis 2:19 suggests humans’ first baby steps at learning about their new world…I’ve shared this before about doctrine being man-made on a few threads – here’s one T-Bone on doctrine and the Bible we may like to think that authors of our favorite books on theology, philosophy...whatever - are somewhat "inspired" at times...that they are exercising good critical thinking methods...but that doesn’t make it so…maybe we’ll never know for sure…then again we might…but the show ain’t over until the fat lady sings about her liposuction. ...and happy 4th of July to all !!!! I am thankful for the freedom we have in this great country !

Hey Chockfull, I hear you on the mental constructs thing you said: “One of the main things I struggle with regarding scriptures and how they relate to mankind through the centuries and millenniums is when I start to get a feel that the mental constructs involved in fitting together and making sense of scripture start to become more intricately involved than the scripture itself that is a red flag. If I need a 10 page mental model to understand a 3 line scripture, that is the point I start questioning the logic that led me there.” A few of my favs on systematic theology are Norman Geisler, Wayne Grudem, Walter Elwell, and Bruce Waltke - but even so sometimes I have to really work at following what they say when I'm wanting to dig a little deeper into something I'm checking out - I don't buy into everything they say - I pick and choose what makes sense to my itty bitty noodle…anyway Geisler makes an interesting point on pages 437 - 439 in volume 4 of his Systematic Theology he talks about the development of a progressive dispensationalism (and I know there are oodles of variations on dispensationalism anyway – but I still like to check out other viewpoints) …anyway Geisler talks about historical-grammatical biblical hermeneutics through which an interpreter tries to take a neutral stance toward a text so as not to read their own view into it; whereas some theologians like Blaising and others (see progressive dispensationalism link) believe that one’s theological pre-understanding should be allowed to influence his textual interpretation. (personally I don’t have a problem with that – but I think that is something – perhaps the right of everyone who reads the scriptures should exercise as they grow in biblical knowledge – but for those dedicated to conveying the strict data of the text, I think traditional historical-grammatical hermeneutics are in order…but that’s just my personal preference - - I just want to see what the text says – then I’ll take it from there through the – dare I say it? – personal filter of everything I’ve learned thus far in life - and that’s not just the Bible but it’s life experiences, how “theories” worked or didn't work when put into practice...it's sort of like thinking out loud - speculating - I want to be very aware I may be going out on a limb - checking out some unchartered waters or something ) Geisler’s comment on Blasing and others who favor the progressive dispen. view is that it becomes an interpretive grid through which views and conclusions from contemporary scholarship might be read into the text - that may be foreign and contrary to the text when using the historical-grammatical method. Personally, I like listening to all sides – that’s why I enjoy Grease Spot so much – and being comfortable with having a lot of my belief system in a state of flux…and some of what I’ve read about progressive dispen. does intrigue me. (I’ll get back to that further on with some interesting stuff out of another systematic theology book I like…change isn’t a bad thing…I may be old and stiff but I like to think my mind is still somewhat flexible and adaptive.) == == == == TLC, I always appreciate your thoroughness and inquisitiveness – and thanks for your thoughtful post…after some of what you said I think we may have more in common on this topic – although sometimes I’m tempted to think we are quibbling over semantics – but I guess that’s part of the process of clarification…However, please consider the following as a feeble attempt to answer when you said : “by grace and through faith ? okay, sure. But let's get honest. What what does that really look like or mean on a practical level? How do you think someone living in Israel at the time King David was saved? By believing that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead? How could they, given that hadn't even happened yet? What about Peter, or any of the other apostles, prior to Jesus Christ's crucifixion? Do you suppose that no one was (nor could be) saved prior to his death and resurrection, simply because that is what you might see as being the crux for your own salvation?” ...As I mentioned in the previous post of things like faith and the person of Jesus Christ transcending time and space whereas, folks in OT times may not have fully understood what things like sacrifices, ceremonies etc. foreshadowed – but I think they knew what it all pointed to - the sacrificial Lamb of God (Rev. 13:8) who would save them from their sins (Isaiah 53:5, 6)… ..but like you said there may have been an unfolding theme (perhaps an unfolding theme from man’s viewpoint anyway) of one simple plan – I believe Jesus Christ was always at the heart of that plan. I think this is something that one can infer from a lot of the things mentioned in Romans and Galatians – that there is only one way to salvation – by grace through faith and that there is only one gospel message. Way back in Genesis 3:15 we see the promise of the Savior; folks in the Old Testament looked forward to the promised Redeemer – even as far back as one of the oldest OT documents declared “I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth.” Job 19:25 – I could be wrong but I understand that to be how OT folks were saved – by a faith in the promised Savior...as one that believes in the pre-existence of Christ – I think John 1 shows a singleness in the purpose and plan of God all along – even from “in the beginning” == == == == == ...this brings me to what I mentioned earlier about progressive dispensationalism and variants…It is always fun checking out other viewpoints on Grease Spot…this thread has been quite enjoyable – thanks to all for the great input!…this thread in particular got me to dust off some of my systematic theology books and reevaluate my beliefs on dispensationalism… I’m glad to be doing that…on this topic I’m tempted to think of the Bible as almost something of a journal, written by folks inspired by God while on a spiritual journey…I don’t think any of them saw the whole enchilada…I think of my own journey - calling to mind the journals I kept while going through the way corps program and way beyond that to Grease Spot posts articulating the various changes I’ve gone through – and even still experience from time to time - - it all represents a spiritual journey for me – I certainly don’t see the whole picture of my existence…maybe bits and pieces that inspire me, folks I’ve met, answers to prayers, illuminating experiences, trials that revealed what I’m made of… perhaps one little glimpse of the big picture throughout my corps journals and Grease Spot posts is that I still believe in my Lord Jesus Christ – which is an amazing thing if you could read some of my corps journals which reek of the indoctrination methods TWI used in an attempt to strangle the freakin’ life out of my relationship with the Lord... Ok - so the content of my writings is a far cry from anything biblical – perhaps better suited for Mad Magazine - - but imagine if you will, those who were inspired to write the scriptures – they were also imperfect humans who did not have the big picture…they wrote from their vantage point in space and time… just a crazy thought: How does God see the plan of salvation compared to how people see it? Perhaps the biggest obstacle to being able to wrap our minds around all this is that we are bound by our physical limitations as well as our notions of space and time. To make sense of things - and even trying to make sense of spiritual things we might ask - when did that happen? When will that happen? Where did this take place? we want a context to place them in; we need a framework - a rough outline - the cover of the box of a huge puzzle that has the complete picture - this allows us to piece things together in a proper relation to other pieces. What are those questions to a being who inhabits eternity? ( I Kings 8: 27-29; Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 26:4; 57:15; John 1:1; Rom. 1:20; I Timothy 1:17; Rev. 1:4)...kind of funny to imagine a comparative interview with God and a scientist asking them both when something took place?.... scientist: our research shows it was approximately x billion years ago...God: it happened exactly xx and a half billion years ago - I know I was there - I can still see it like it happened yesterday.. == == == == The following excerpts are from Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Grudem, co. 1994, published jointly by Inter-Varsity Press and Zondervan Publishing House, pages 859 – 863: Among evangelical Protestants there has been a difference of viewpoint on the question of the relationship between Israel and the church. This question was brought into prominence by those who hold to a “dispensational” system of theology. The most extensive systematic theology written by a dispensationalist. Lewis Sperry Chafer’s Systematic Theology, points out many distinctions between Israel and the church, and even between believing Isarel in the Old Testament and the church in the New Testament.. …While Chafer’s position continues to have influence in some dispensational circles…several current dispensational theologians, such as Robert Saucy, Craig Blaising, and Darrell Bock, refer to themselves “progressive dispensationalists”…They would not see the church as a parenthesis in God’s plan but as the first step toward the establishment of the kingdom of God… …Progressive dispensationalists would see no distinction between Israel and the church in the future eternal state, for all will be part of the one people of God... …The position taken in this book differs quite a bit from Chafer’s views on this issue and also differs somewhat with progressive dispensationalists. However,, it must be said here that questions about the exact way in which biblical prophecies about the future will be fulfilled are, in the nature of the case, difficult to decide with certainty, and it is wise to have some tentativeness in our conclusions on these matters… …we should notice the many New Testament verses that understand the church as the “new Israel” or new “people of God.” The fact that “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her” (Eph.5:25) would suggest this. Moreover, this present church age, which has brought the salvation of many millions of Christians in the church, is not an interruption or a parenthesis in God’s plan, but a continuation of his plan expressed throughout the Old Testament to a call a people to himself. Paul says, “For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal” (Rom. 2:28, 29)… …Paul says that Abraham is not only to be considered the father of the Jewish people in a physical sense. He is also in a deeper and more true sense “the father of all who believe without being circumcised…[who] also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had” (Rom. 4:11, 12; cf. vv. 16, 18)... …Hebrews 8 provides another strong argument for seeing the church as the recipient and fulfillment of the Old Testament promises concerning Israel. In the context of speaking about the new covenant to which Christians belong, the author of Hebrews gives an extensive quotation from Jeremiah 31:31 – 34, in which he says, “The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they will be my people” (Heb. 8:8 – 10)…It seems hard to avoid the conclusion that the author views the church as the true Israel of God in which the Old Testament promises to Israel find their fulfillment. Similarly, James can write a general letter to many Christian churches and say that he is writing “To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion” (James 1:1). This indicates that he is evidently viewing New Testament Christians as the successors to and fulfillment of the twelve tribes of Israel… …Peter frequently speaks of New Testament Christians in terms of Old Testament imagery and promises given to the Jews. This theme comes to prominence in I Peter 2: 4-10, where Peter says that God bestowed on the church almost all the blessings promised to Israel in the Old Testament. The dwelling-place of God is no longer the Jerusalem temple, for Christians are the new “temple” of God (v. 5). The priesthood able to offer acceptable sacrifices to God is no longer descended from Aaron, for Christians are now the true “royal priesthood” with access before God’s throne (vv. 4, 5, 9). End of excerpts == == == == This thread has got me to look into the big picture – and ask what is God’s master plan? Is it one simple master plan – is it a series or phases that builds upon what’s gone before? Is the master plan of salvation veiled by the limitations and humanness of those who during their long and arduous journey wrote about it in the Bible? In reviewing some stuff I have on dispensationalism I found the above variant of progressive dispensationalism from Grudem’s book most interesting – I think because it’s trying to get a look at the big picture - - it’s more inclusive anyway - - it helps me get out of that can’t-see-the-forest-for–the-trees syndrome …where I’m not so focused on details that I fail to understand the overall issue…yeah… but check back with me in a year or two, I bet it will still be in a state of flux.

Chockfull, thanks for the info / links on oikonomia... the etymological root of our word “economy”...which originally meant house management- - but current definition in use usually means ‘management of MATERIAL resources ‘ dates back to late 15th century (from what I’m able to find from quick internet search)...but I think the linkage between the two meanings is rather obvious - in the work force we refer to those responsible for the well-being of employees - from hiring to firing, payroll, benefits, keeping up on state/federal laws, etc. as the department of Human Resources...I think this goes along the same lines as your thing on oikonomia being a more flexible application or interpretation of the Canons ...as I mentioned in an earlier post - love is the fulfilling of the law and perhaps house management in the context of believers is just as much about how we deal with one another as about how God deals with us....just a thought. Another word/idea that goes along these lines is “stewardship “ - the job of supervising, managing or taking care of an organization ,property, or resources. That makes me think of Luke 12: 42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. Might be a good thing to ask ourselves occasionally in regards to any gifts, resources or responsibilities we’ve been given - “ am I being a good steward of all that?” I can see how some folks get “dispensation “ out of that - dispensation being a system of government or organization AS EXISTING AT A PARTICULAR TIME- - I capitalized / bolded / italicized the last part of the definition to highlight what I think is the crux of dispensationalism - an historical progressive series or stages of development...but I think dispensationalism may be somewhat problematic by overthinking or complicating the supposed implications; dispensationalists tend to a literal interpretation of the Bible and also carry on like their way is the best and perhaps most accurate method to interpret the Bible. Millard Erickson said something interesting about dispensationalism in his "Christian Theology" (on pages 1162, 1163), that despite the stress on literal interpretation - there is also a tendency toward a typological understanding in some narratives and poetic passages which at times approaches the old allegorizing method - which is to interpret or represent something symbolically. An example that Erickson gives on allegorizing is the frequent explanation of The Song of Solomon as showing Christ's love for his church - even though the book says nothing about Christ or the church... generally I think dispensationalists do realize that salvation has always been the same - by grace through faith - I don't think they're promoting different means or methods of salvation - but rather promoting the idea there are different stages or phases to God's ultimate plan...I don't have a serious beef with much of dispensationalism since it does not ignore the simple things like grace and faith - and I can see the attraction it has for some folks who may not be familiar with systematic theology - like myself when I first took PFAL - it gave me a very convenient framework for understanding the Bible - although I now believe it was a flawed understanding - by my acquiring a wider scope of things... and I think one of the things missing in dispensationalism is the centrality of Christ. besides that I suspect there's some kind of compartmentalization at play in dispensationalism to avoid addressing or even acknowledging contradictions in the Bible - I don't mean to digress into a debate on the inerrancy of scripture - but I do see why wierwille would use something like dispensationalism as one of the ways to get folks to believe conflicting ideas can co-exist. My own opinion / speculation is to view the “divine plan for man’s salvation “ mentioned earlier - as perhaps a unified design that revolves around simple recurring themes like faith and the person of Jesus Christ (whether foretold, foreshadowed, illustrated or actively present)- - faith and Jesus Christ are not limited to a particular time - past, present or future...we must ask what is essential or what is of the greatest importance to the divine plan for man's salvation? My answer to that is Jesus Christ. Romans 4 Hebrews 11 Hebrews 13

you ain't kidding Waysider - and on the Lawrence Welk Show !!!! great tune...and to think dad, mom & I used to watch that together...."hey pops, don't bogart that joint daddy-o !!!!"...naw - i'm kidding - but I think a little weed mighta helped out our dysfunctional family...just sayin'

I think it’s like a rebound relationship for cults - you leave a cult and go right into an offshoot to avoid the pain of a breakup.

Ha ! back then the only seeds I knew about was what I found in my bag of weed…now if those were not marijuana plant seeds then, yeah there’s cause for concern – they would be the wrong seeds.

Hey Taxidev, the fact that disappointments are mounting up is a good sign - so give yourself a lot more credit in the critical thinking department ...after mulling over your post I quoted ( and I was really electrified by your reference to broken wineskins ) I was not addressing anyone in particular - just wanted to use your expression as a springboard for criticizing offshoots of wierwille. So carry on

Yes I WAS a broken wineskin - but have moved on from that...allow me to explain: I think a lot of folks have figured out that you can’t fix stupid... and there’s no sense in repairing broken wineskins...when I say I moved on - it’s called a learning curve - folks develop skills (like critical thinking ) by learning from their mistakes... ...but those who left TWI and still have a wierwille-centric basis for doctrine and practice are stuck in a vicious circle...they may claim it’s improved - restored - revived - whatever ,like some supposedly learning curve process ...but follow the sequence - the reciprocal cause and effect of using wierwille’s “wine” and patched up wineskins (cultic mindset) and it will eventually aggravate and intensify their blindness, callousness and egotism... ...from what you’ve already shared about them I think it really illustrates Jesus’ words to a T: you should put NEW wine in NEW wineskins...in other words, start from scratch! New wine is still fermenting and so the expansion of “life” will burst an old hardened and stiff wine skin. I guess putting old wine into old wineskins wouldn’t pose as much a risk - you just keep patching up any leaks that may develop. Folks might want to figure out for themselves the application of Jesus’ words...for me it was to stop following (or being influenced by) any wierwille-associated doctrine and practice - be it books, teachings, fellowships, and rooting out that subtle mindset too (and really that part is an ongoing process - like peeling an onion...you keep digging deeper and deeper to remove one layer and then discover another layer beneath that... your critical thinking skills do get better over time - like therapy for atrophied muscles)...for me, putting the NEW wine in a NEW wineskin means taking off the wierwille-colored glasses and reading the Bible with an open mind and trying to gather the natural sense of scripture.

Rocky, that reminds me of a stow-ry... back in my real college days - I bought a little pin-on button at a head shop - it had a little drawing of Jesus in the middle and around the circumference it read "take a trip with Jesus Christ" ...now if you've ever read my deliverance story of a bad acid trip and Jesus answering my cry for help (I've shared a couple of times on Grease Spot) - you might think that little button was a prophecy or something... well anyway...it was the best part of the trip, man

It’s been said that knowledge is power. To teach is to impart information with a view toward causing a person or group to acquire some knowledge or skill. Teaching is presenting theory with perhaps a challenge to put it into practice. The theory (teaching) is merely the potential for power. Succeeding at putting it into practice is actual power. To indoctrinate is to condition a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. If what is taught is pseudo knowledge - the “teacher” may claim or promise its potential for power but when put into practice one only succeeds at failing. The pseudo knowledge of cults is part of the whimpy-a$$ power they wield over the indoctrinated.

However I am inclined to think “born again” may simply be a writer’s choice of wording referring to the same thing - along the lines of regeneration - and if you consider Jesus’ words to Nicodemus in John 3: 1 - 16...Jesus seems to be saying to Nicodemus “you should have known about this from the Old Testament “ : Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.” 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Just a thought here: OT references to people having the spirit enable them for a special task or assignment though perhaps on a temporary basis seems to me to be along the same lines - as it shows in Deuteronomy 30:6, this “new heart” or “circumcised heart” will enable the Israelite to love God wholeheartedly: The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. It appears this “connection “ - this “new heart” - this “regeneration “ was not limited to just OT prophets but to Israelites believing the promises of God.

You might be right - but that’s thinking of consciousness as typically defined - a function of a physical body (i.e. brain) - however what capabilities are intrinsic to the soul we might speculate about - for example in Revelation 6: 9 - 11, there seems to be some consciousness and reaction by souls after the 5th seal was broken: When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.