T-Bone

A few more thoughts on my very first post - talking about “the word”: In my humble opinion, wierwille in the PFAL class laid the groundwork for a slippery slope by gradually superimposing his own interpretation over a Bible text - and often , whether it was due to his incompetency, hidden agenda, personal bias, delusions of grandeur, narcissism, competing with legitimate churches and ministers - or a combination of things - - often what wierwille taught a passage meant ultimately became suffused with that particular text; in the minds of his many dedicated followers, wierwille’s interpretation often eclipsed other ways of understanding the text - and I might add even obscuring other ways that were honest and technically transparent that perhaps don’t follow such a strict...wooden...fundamentalist approach.. when I was in TWI - reading the Bible was often an experience of something like pop-ups or subliminal messages where I remembered what wierwille said about the verse. Sometimes it was almost Like experiencing translation in real-time ...I’m reading a passage in english while I listen to the “translation “ into cult-jargon and familiar wierwille concepts - in the back of my mind. In PFAL, was the change in reference to the Bible deliberate? I don’t know...but if memory serves me well - allow me to articulate the fall from intelligence - that’s right - the road down the slippery slope ...in the class, wierwille starts out calling it “the Bible”...then it’s” the word of God” ...then simply “the word”...it has the feel of being authoritative...official...should I dare say it - “god-breathed”...”The word” became almost like a shorthand or code that was the sum or abbreviation for using all the “tools” you’ve learned in PFAL for “rightly dividing “ the Bible. i mean Why settle for the raw, “organic” material of the plain old Bible - when you can have it all conveniently processed for mass consumption as provided in “the word”. Like many students I assumed wierwille was a legitimate theologian and an honest teacher....that he was competent and knew what he was talking about. So to me, condensing all the hard work (cough, cough) and research (ah ah plagiarism - oh excuse me, I just sneezed) was behind the simple term “the word”. wierwille even makes the bold assertion at one point in the class - that “the word “ takes the place of the absent Christ....Yeah right. (If Christ is absent, does he have to bring a note from his Dad when he returns? ) Gee whiz...what the heck does “the absent Christ “ even mean? Is he absent physically - so all I have is a bunch of words in a book called the Holy Bible to keep me company? Doesn’t the Bible say Christ is the head of the church? Did I miss the bulletin on the body of Christ being decapitated? And what about Matthew 28: 18 & 19 where Jesus said go and make disciples of all the nations...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age...this “absent Christ” idea and the recommended “replacement” - a book !!! - for us poor folks stuck in the here and now is utterly ridiculous...a treacherous ploy by a false teacher to undermine any Christian’s attempt to pursue knowing Christ and the power of his resurrection (see Philippians 3:10 ). Thinking along these lines of “the word” taking the place of the absent Christ, a Christian’s relationship is really with a book and not a person! Even if you want to exclude any wierwille-centered theology - that winds up being a self-centered religion. You’re only feedback is from yourself ; whereas in any relationship - it’s more or less a two way street - each person is somewhat affected or “transformed” by the other. Do you think Christ derives any joy or feel proud when we follow his example ? Or how about when we feel down an out - does Hebrews 4:15 ring a bell - - For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin...Christ empathizes with our current condition. He is able to understand and share in our feelings...It’s some of that two way street dynamic in a relationship. yeah relationships...connecting with another person...how about John 14 where Jesus said “Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.” Exactly how does that work? I don’t know…But I believe it has to be simple or simple folks like me would be totally in the dark. I tend to think following Christ is a very personal experience though it does not happen in a vacuum – unless you live in a cave and never leave it. I think there’s something that happens concurrently in our relationship with Christ as well as with our fellow man... or woman - when we love Christ and follow his directives. An obvious passage that comes to mind is Matthew 22 where Jesus teaches about the two great commandments “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” The second great commandment (love your neighbor as yourself ) has more or less the same sentiment the golden rule in Luke 6: 31 – treat others as you would like to be treated. As a way-believer I was more of a Bible knowledge junkie. I felt my spiritual growth was contingent upon how much I knew of the Bible. It’s kind of weird when one fixates on taking the next class…or repeating the same class many times over…looking forward to the next issue of The Way Mag or the next conference or advance that might fill in the missing pieces of something...something almost like a personal knowledge base that would eventually enable me to solve any problem. Since I left TWI and reconfigured my outlook to be more about relationships, empathy, connecting, appreciating the whole person (not just the people who think or believe like I do), trying to be true to myself and accepting who I am...I feel I’m on the right track … maybe that’s some of what Jesus Christ was talking about in John 14. ...That reminds me - At some point in a discussion on another thread a few folks criticized the hypocritical nature of wierwille’s teachings in general. Then someone cited Philippians 1:18 of Paul rejoicing over the fact that whether in pretense or in truth Christ is preached...after which I felt compelled to say - whether in pretense or in truth , it’s debatable as to how much of what wierwille taught was even about Christ...wierwille tended to toot his own horn...he wanted folks to recognize his great achievements in biblical research...in my humble opinion if ever Christ was mentioned it was more of a window dressing to give the appearance of Christianity...I think he wanted folks to be almost in reverential awe of his walk with the Father who guided him in rightly dividing “the word”. I really don’t think the Apostle Paul would have been all that keen on wierwille’s hypocrisy…and I think his point in Philippians 1 was the priority of preaching Christ regardless of the motivation...we're not talking about a ravenous wolf dressing up in sheep's clothing ...There’s nothing in there that addresses - or justifies - wierwille’s malicious and predatory behavior – like it was ok because of the greater good that was done through his teaching “the word”…that’s some fvcked up scale of values in my book…I don’t think true ministers of Christ are that callous.... and I just can’t picture Jesus as some unsympathetic high priest - trying to give a pep talk to some woman who was just drugged and molested by wierwille saying something like “ just renew your mind and think of how you've blessed the man of god and ultimately helped move 'the word' ! ". and believe it or not - as weird, twisted and creepy as that sounds - that is the type of bull$hit wierwille would use to "comfort" his victims!...and how that flies in the face of what Jesus said about the worth of a soul in Luke 15 - his parables of the one lost sheep, the one lost coin, and the prodigal son all illustrate the importance and value of the individual. Outreach is not a numbers game...nor about percentages or trade-offs...and it's not just about getting people saved - in Matthew 18: 1 - 9 Jesus said it wasn't real cool to cause even just one believer to stumble...there will be consequences...really bad consequences...so I don't know - you tell me what is the worth of a soul? In TWI it seemed “the word” had precedence over personhood. It wasn’t about you - the individual; it was about you being homogenized to think like the group...we're to be like-minded on "the word" don't ya know...…it doesn’t matter what you feel or what you think... What does “the word” say? That’s what counts…I remember wierwille's line in PFAL - "when it comes to 'the word' , I have no friends"...yeah I can see how that's entirely possible if one thinks their own interpretation of The Bible is more important than people. I thought Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners – not create a bunch of bookworms who imagine they're really working "the word" as they regurgitate some plagiarist's supposed "research"...oh yeah, rightly dividing "the word" ...custodians of the great accuracy and integrity of "the word" I mean it's so laughable the way everyone throws around these scholarly and biblical sounding phrases...it's a bunch of fluff...hype to sell folks on how necessary The Way International is to getting "the word" out.... I’ve come to realize I don't need PFAL, The Advanced Class or some other supposedly specialized knowledge to unlock the secrets of the universe to be able to tap into the power of God…I just need Jesus to save my sinful a$$ . ...forsaking my former cult mindset I now ask if “the word” was supposed to take the place of the absent Christ - what or who takes the place of the absent “word”? In other words, who will fill in for “wierwille the Bible interpreter” ? Who or what group will carry on the legacy of wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice? I guess that would depend on the particular “dispensation of pontification” - Craig, Rosie, the new prez.. or just name your favorite TWI-offshoot. Here’s just a few qualities of the problematic TWI mindset: the habit of proof texting (using isolated or out of context scripture references) , ignoring logical fallacies of wierwille’s doctrine and holding him in high esteem like he was some modern day Apostle Paul...and just flat out being ignorant of the implanted (or if you prefer indoctrinated ) bias...close-minded to alternate viewpoints...Sadly when it comes to simply reading the Bible with an open mind - I think TWI followers and other “like-minded” folks are often lost in the morass * of wierwille’s convoluted and error-prone frame of thought... (* “morass” : think more a$$ as in - your viewpoint is based mostly on a stupid person).

Make indoctrination great again ! Indoctrination tip of the week: If the cult-leader says it, that settles it. mmmmmm great Kool-Aid !!!

I think Grease Spot often has a twofold attraction to new folks: 1. Some experiences they read about deeply resonate with them too – it strikes a nerve and it won’t quit vibrating! 2. The seemingly endless possibilities and options for those who dare to think – and live – outside the cult-box. ...as long as there are cults around there will always be a need for a website like this!

As “merchandise” of a cult, one should be aware that they could be the subject of a "fire sale" at any given time. “What is a fire sale in a cult?” you may ask. Let me corps-splain…a fire sale is when a cult leader declares that you are “spiritually bankrupt” (they might say something like you are so worthless that "God won't even spit in your direction") or that your actions or supposed attitudes are indicative of the impending distress you will cause them…and as in any "fire sale" - all such problematic merchandise in a cult must go ! …see ancient archives of what happened to the Zero Corps.

I wanted to add some things that were in the back of my mind when I wrote my previous post. Whether a non-believer or a believer is posting - we’re talking about one’s own belief system - a complex thing if you consider all the biases, experiences, acquired knowledge and reflection that comprise one’s viewpoint. I enjoy reading a thoughtful response - and will likely be more receptive if it passes the "smell test"...sometimes you can pick up the odor of bull$hit a mile away...i try to get a feel for where the person is coming from...does the poster hit me as humble and honest ...do they come across as a person who might on occasion acknowledge the limitations of their viewpoint...and somewhere in all that I try to get a sense of the foundation - or perhaps the lack of foundation - for their belief...I think a lot of folks are turned off by someone who often avoids direct questions, changes the subject, talks through their hat, etc..but anyway, a good post isn't just a pat answer - there was some thought behind it...it adds to the discussion...doesn't try to derail it. I think just saying “it’s made up” may be an oversimplification when it comes to a rebuttal with valid reasons... and if one can shoot holes through an opposing view (i.e. find legitimate problems with it) they probably have every right to say “it’s made up”...”that’s a logical fallacy”...”that idea doesn’t hold water”... On certain topics I do tend to be redundant in terms of expressing why I feel a certain way - and that may be due to the fact that thus far I’ve only looked at the Greek text , historical context, etc. in other words, I haven't looked into any new material - so I will tend to be repetitive - but I sometimes try to vary my argument by rephrasing the issue or try a more philosophical or speculative approach. ...there’s an old thread discussion of SIT - where I did say "it’s made up" ...I explained why I am a cessationist from the Greek text in I Corinthians 13 and what one may infer from scripture on the signs of an apostle like II Corinthians 12:12 ( I believe that may have been part of God’s authentication process in the early church) - and thought I clinched it with references to Steven Pinker’s work on what’s palmed off today as SIT...and I even got into a somewhat philosophical/ psychological approach ( again with the BS ) as to the cognitive benefits of prayer in my understanding ( I guess I did that to just avoid saying the same thing over and over again) - i do believe it’s true what the Bible says about speaking in tongues back then - but in my limited experience when I was in TWI - I’d have to say when I did SIT it was made up...so my point is reasons may vary on why someone may say balderdash or call bull$hit on something -but it’s up to you look into what - if any - details are offered - there may be something more interesting than just the punchline. I think how interesting and thought provoking a debate can be is in the details...specifics! And maybe there’s some “beauty-is-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder” thing involved too...I enjoy many genres of music; but somebody that only likes classical music might criticize rock for being too simple and repetitive, “it’s the same chords over and over again”. whereas me on the other hand - I can listen to “Crossroads” over and over again (I often do ) and enjoy listening to the individually creative and collaborative efforts of each musician in The Cream - what they do with a simple blues tune is amazing!...Jack Bruce may he rest in peace.

Great post, Grace ! right to the point ! Bingo…Yahtzee…and Parcheesi !!!

Would somebody please tell this clown a divided highway is a road with a median strip between the traffic going in opposite directions – and personally I think he’s going the wrong way you're going the wrong way

I agree with Waysider…I appreciate input from folks with different points of view – but usually I will ignore what they say if I feel they are being condescending or mean. Raf, you’re one of the few posters here who is very adept at separating your viewpoint from the point being considered – and on occasion you will point that out – in a putting-all-your-cards-on-the table manner…like your post on The Trinity thread . that post really exemplifies your transparent style of discussion…I thought you made several good points from an historical perspective as well as by referring to certain books of the Bible to determine the identity of Jesus Christ – was he God… an angel… an extraordinary man? And you brought up valid points for each… your statement at the end of the post “My personal belief is that you can't get to one answer because there isn't one answer at the core of the argument. Finding out what the Bible says about who Jesus really was is complicated, perhaps irreparably, by the fact that the Bible's writers don't seem to agree with each other on the subject.” I do NOT find your statement offensive or rude at all – since I see the same issue – even though I am a Christian and believe the scriptures are inspired of God. I just don’t think they are inerrant. let me put all my cards on the table too – this year I’ve taken a big step away from fundamentalism – and rather than a strict biblical theology approach [since I’ve found the Bible can be a very pliable resource] I’m a lot happier with a philosophical approach…if I can’t figure out the issue from scripture and plain logic then I’m just not gonna lose any sleep over it. So don’t hold back…be yourself…your logic is strong, your attention to details is superb, your honesty is refreshing, and of course you excel at articulating your thoughts – I mean - duh - you string words together for a living…all that keeps me on my toes and gives me something to shoot for when I’m posting on Grease Spot.

To say that wierwille promoted unity in the body of Christ is like saying cancer improves your health. Cancer is a disease caused by the uncontrolled division of abnormal cells in a part of the body...On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the worst case) i think wierwille was abnormal dialed up to 11 ...yeah abnormal and out of control...committing unconscionable acts - he did not answer to anyone in heaven or on earth...his unchecked ego formulating cancer-like theology and practices that always tended to distinguish him apart from other churches and ministries, and afforded him immense control over the lives of others - to exploit ...to destroy... if there was a deliberate battle plan to attack the body of Christ - I would call his strategy divide and conquer. ...he plagiarized from other Christians to cobble together a skewed doctrine and practice with a subliminal message that no one else out there was really rightly dividing “the word” like him; amping up the divisiveness he’d ensnare followers with a polarizing ploy like shoving JCING down your throat so you look at any Trinitarian like they’ve got 3 heads; pushing this thing called “the household of god” like it was special and better than being just in the body of Christ... and as if that wasn’t enough he’d often label other churches / ministers as off “the word”, deceived , spiritually blinded, possessed or wrong seed - take your pick there’s lots of bad mojo to choose from. ...Among other things one of wierwille’s big problems was his high level of absenteeism from the lordship of Christ - probably why he taught that “the word” takes the place of the absent Christ - so there’s no lordship of Jesus Christ - only whatever wierwille taught “the word” says on a particular topic so he could lord it over others...sounds to me like a Colossians 2:19 problem : ... not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.

Script for radio commercial Seasoned TWI follower: our teachings are the best thing for depression! New attendee to fellowship: really?!?! Seasoned TWI follower: yup – that’s where I got mine.

Another jam-packed post - thanks Skyrider !!! Fascinating to think of these details that add to the backstory of wierwille’s narcissism and megalomania

Whether in pretence or in truth it’s debatable as to how much of what wierwille taught was even about Christ

I think a lot of folks - once they get some life experiences under their belt have a pretty good idea of their own core values and belief system; but maybe most folks don’t get into splitting hairs and all kinds of in-depth-thinking-Bible-nerd stuff; but in general, people are curious and like to explore things even if it’s just for fun; I’m that way…and if I’m checking out something new – I like to try and find guidelines or get some idea of the lay of the land…as you mentioned PFAL – that was like that for me…maybe a cobbled together patchwork – but it was somewhere to start for me… Yeah I understand what you’re saying…the whole social media scene is like a bizarro-world to me…everyone has something to say and they have to share it with others…or the living-vicariously-machine will stop running. On NPR I heard an interview with Bo Burnham (writer & director for the movie “Eighth Grade”) – commenting on folks who thrive on that whole social media buzz he said something like “can you enjoy living your life if there was no audience?”…so yeah I hear what you’re saying about too many alternative thoughts out there…fortunately we have the freedom to pick and choose what we want to focus on…I love the Internet for the vast resource of info on so many things…I hate the Internet for the vast resource of scams, cons, pseudo-knowledge and the goofballs that are smitten with their own image on the Internet.

Thanks Chockfull – likewise back atcha – your posts are a good springboard to dive in a little deeper into scripture. Yeah I dig that Occam’s Razor thing… when I first joined Grease Spot, the first person I remember talking about that was WordWolf… now there is one top-notch-problem-solving Wolf! I really like your line: “Can "we" understand scripture together?”…that is an interesting idea…I like hearing other folks’ ideas on scripture…ideally - if everyone had a good attitude about it – and not try to be competitive or one-up everyone else I think it might be something on the order of a prism effect – each person sharing something with a slightly different shade of meaning…resonance – but at alternate frequencies… I like your talk of “the average man” response. I can identify with that.

Sorry for the delay on addressing this part pf your post…I had to let it simmer until I could boil it down to what I think might be the issue here…and not sure if that’s really it but I’ll take a stab at it anyway…please keep in mind I’m just throwing this out there - - I may be way off base… From what you’ve said to me it appears you believe the freedom to think and choose takes some enormous effort…I don’t think so…I believe it comes naturally to folks if you don't pull any manipulative strings on them...I don’t think it’s anything to “master” – maybe more along the lines of “use it or lose it” – as one would exercise a muscle so it doesn’t atrophy…now granted - since you mentioned TWI – back in that particular mindset – I did have some mental constraints per their goofy doctrine and practice that set boundaries, dictated what to think and believe, the pressures of group-think, etc. …in that environment, the only choices I had were either TWI’s way (code name: “the Word’s way”) or "oblivion" - (which happened to be wierwille's choice of words on many occasions - see TWI is NOT a Supermassive Black Hole for example). Things got a whole lot easier once I got out from under their tyrannical thumb. I used to have one of my favorite quotes at the bottom of my posts – but I still have it on my profile page “about me”: Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even specially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities..... Allan Bloom... from The Closing of the American Mind it's been an interesting detour on this thread and I helped start it – sorry – but something to think about: can salvation be lost? What is freedom? Is freedom the power to think and choose what I want without hindrance or restraint? Do we have the freedom to choose salvation? And do we have the freedom to change our minds – to later on reject salvation?

If you’re talking in just a basic owner/operator sort of way – I guess so...I know what goes on in my heart... if there’s anything to Jesus’ words in Matthew 6: 21 - what I treasure…what I value the most will be in my heart…and I see it as more or less a two-way street – you’ve got traffic in and out; Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander… ...and there’s lots of other things to consider like genetics, the environment, evolution and I dig reading up on what folks like Howard Gardner, Steven Pinker, Daniel Dennett and Alvin Plantinga have to say about how the mind works… ...but for practical purposes concerning my life – what goes on in my heart – it's really no great mystery – I tend to monitor the “traffic” going in and out of my heart – what do I think about? what do I like for entertainment? what do I like to do for stress relief? How am I treating the wife and kids? Am I planning to bump off someone? No. Am I plotting how to hit on some woman at work? no. Do I hang around with shady folks who want to rip off unsuspecting fools? No – I left TWI years ago .

after Cher was successfully cloned, the headlines announced: Cher and Cher Alike

...meanwhile back at the older post... Responding to your recent post (not the one I've quoted here - using this as a reference point): The reason I did not answer this question is because it appears to be a logical fallacy – based on false assumptions – which are rather obvious: you assume there is at least a dichotomy within the brain - in terms of where thoughts and beliefs are concerned anyway – further assuming there is some sort of “chasm” that separates the two from functioning together in concert on certain things; and lastly, you assume once a person believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they cannot honestly “undo” that belief... since I do not agree with your assumptions your question did not make sense to me...it's almost like asking me "how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?" what if I don't believe that angels exist...or what if these particular angels are Baptist - don't they know dancing is forbidden? Hence, some of my questions on defining the “mind” and “heart” were to smoke out assumptions – culminating in my last question to you: “Can you please explain why you think a person cannot change one of their own particular beliefs?”. This was not the old TWI-trick of asking a question with a question; I was merely attempting to cut you off at the pass (of false assumptions ). But if it’s not already obvious, then let me say this - I’m of the opinion that folks can change their own beliefs; so I've answered your question - I think it's possible for a person to honestly "undo" ANY belief - change their mind, have a change of heart, change a viewpoint, do a 180, whatever you want to call it…now that we’ve circled back around (that would be a 360 I guess - which reminds me of a joke I heard – if a person has a 2nd life-changing experience – do they revert back to their old lousy self? )...well anyway...perhaps you want to give it another try: You said: “Once you honestly believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, how can anyone honestly "undo" that belief that is in their heart?” I’m asking – why do you say that? Can you explain what the dilemma is? And for extra credit : What is so hard about honestly “undoing” a belief that is in the heart? or is your question over this one particular belief - belief in the risen Christ ? or maybe I've missed what you were looking for; are you actually asking for legitimate do-it-yourself details to undo a belief in the risen Christ?

Was this your question? “Once you honestly believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, how can anyone honestly "undo" that belief that is in their heart?”

sorry - your answer is unacceptable- you’re still avoiding my questions that very much relate to one’s thoughts / beliefs regarding his resurrection; please reread my post - I asked you five SPECIFIC questions - and if I’m not mistaken the Socratic method is based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking...maybe it’s just me but your replies over my mention of your departure from the Socratic method - where you said: - “intentionally left vague” and “haven't actually veered much (if at all) from it “ seem to be contradictory. So if you (or anyone else )would like to take another crack at my 5 questions feel free to do so anytime.

Well thanks for acknowledging my post…but frankly I’m disappointed in the departure from your usual Socratic method…this may be a very critical point on the topic of salvation – so maybe you could clear up the matter when you have the chance sometime.

I have some questions for clarification sake: does this usage of “promise” mean the assurance that a particular thing WILL happen? What is the difference between “mind” and “heart”? is saying “I’ve changed my mind on the matter” any different from saying “I’ve had a change of heart on the matter”? Can you explain exactly how this works: “merely thinking it in your mind doesn't "make is so" in your heart.” == == Oh yeah - forgot to add another thing I would like clarified: you said: “Once you honestly believe in your heart that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead, how can anyone honestly "undo" that belief that is in their heart?” Can you please explain why you think a person cannot change one of their own particular beliefs?

Thinking over my navigation of a personal journey I wanted to make mention of a change in how I usually approach the lofty, heavy, “spiritual “, and - dare I say it - existential concerns. It has been a shift from using a theological approach to more of a philosophical approach. To me “philosophical “ means more than just the study of knowledge, reality , and existence. It also refers to my attitude toward the difficult, unfathomable, mystifying or disappointing issues...basically I try to be patient and unruffled through it all...accepting the way things are and the idea that I may never find a definitive answer on many things. Having dabbled in theology for a long spell I’ve noticed my tendency - when having a strictly theological approach - that one way or another I could squeeze some answers out of the Bible - which is indeed a very malleable resource. At this stage of my journey if i had to list my most essential criteria for interpreting a passage of the Bible - it would be : Point 1: What is the most obvious meaning of the text? Point 2: Does it make sense to me? Now I don’t mean to oversimplify this - for me point 1 takes into account biblical languages / syntax / historical, cultural & geographical context, etc. - I did say at this stage of my journey - so by now I’ve learned some of the nuts & bolts of the biblical data. Point 2 - i consider more than the few systematic theologies and commentaries I’ve studied on the particular passage - I look at all the details from point 1 and see if it resonates with me as far as experiences in my life - can I wrap my mind around it ? Does it satisfy some question I have? Is it something I need to do ...or stop doing? Can I connect or relate to it somehow? Having said all that I should also mention there’s a lot of things in the Bible that still elude me...intellectually, where do you go if your answer to point 1 is “i don’t know” or “not sure”? I don’t know ...maybe speculate...philosophize...not sure. and what if your answer to point 2 is “nope”? I am not a theologian and don’t feel the pressure or see the need to formulate an answer for everything; I’m perfectly happy being a long-and-winding-roads-scholar - enjoying this strange journey called life.

art imitating life in the corps

Fascinating points in your post, thanks WordWolf ! Got me thinking about cognitive development... did a little search online and found this: Cognitive development refers to the development of the ability to think and reason. Children (typically 6 to 12 years old) develop the ability to think in concrete ways (concrete operations), such as how to combine (addition), separate (subtract or divide), order (alphabetize and sort), and transform (5 pennies = 1 nickel) objects and actions. These processes are called concrete because they are performed in the presence of the objects and events being thought about. Adolescence marks the beginning development of more complex thinking processes (also called formal logical operations) including abstract thinking (thinking about possibilities), the ability to reason from known principles (form own new ideas or questions), the ability to consider many points of view according to varying criteria (compare or debate ideas or opinions), and the ability to consider the process of thinking. From Article on cognitive development == == == I think there’s something to your idea of folks being “frozen” in their development while in TWI. Considering TWI’s methods of deception,indoctrination, tyrannical control and such I tend to think all that can frustrate and sabotage one’s development of logical thinking and formulating new ideas or questions...not to mention the strong public opinion (i.e. group-think) that it was NOT cool to consider other points of view based on various criteria that differed from wierwille’s. In my humble opinion, once a person leaves TWI they may have a lot of catching up to do in terms of cognitive development...yeah - I’m still working on that myself. Peace y’all