T-Bone

I know what you're thinking...just when I thought I was out – they keep pulling me back in it’s almost like this thread actual exerts a subtle gravitational pull…well…if you stuck it out this far you probably need a break…all this manipulative stuff can be so depressing sometimes…soooooooo – let’s lighten up…how about a musical interlude ! let’s expand our awareness of the song (in other words - let's kill some time, shall we)…here’s the tune that started it all: Supermassive Black Hole - Muse's original music video ….definitely weird to say the least...if you pay attention, it looks like they have one of the dancers from Athletes of the Spirit in there their live version at Wembley Stadium I like the live version - you get a mix of the crowd’s energy with the performance – adding fuel to the fire…studio albums are cool – but I’m always in awe when a band can pull off a good live performance. Muse's alternative live version this is cool cuz it’s live but it’s just Muse – no audience distraction…a laser-focused vibe - it's clean and sharp! cover by Mrs. Beat she’s got some set of pipes! maybe a little overproduced but I like the effects and mixing of all her voices. cover by Female Solution I like this version because the lead singer gives it an edgy and somewhat soulful touch – she definitely has an attitude… and I think she looks like a young Cybil Shepherd…it's a short and sweet version - I wish it was longer...they had something good going on...the band sounds tight and crisp – like a fresh potato chip 2 Cellos cover with Naya Rivera ...this was the video I used in my very first post...it gets your attention doesn't it?...I love this arrangement by 2 Cellos and with Naya this one is by far the most seductive version…which is actually another level of a cult’s attraction, if you think about it - think love-bombing …but anyway I actually like this more than the original by Muse – makes me think of Joe Cocker – even though I love The Beatles - I like his versions of The Beatles’ “She Came in Through the Bathroom Window”, “With a Little Help from My Friends”, and “Come Together” (which Joe sings in “Across the Universe” movie)…and I’m not knocking Muse either; it was actually 2 Cellos’ version that got me into checking out Muse – so I bought their Live at Rome Olympic Stadium CD – love it! cover by Tiffany Page note funny pronunciation of “Glacier” – sounds like Glay-see-ur …Tiffany does have a deep sexy voice. Her's is actually deeper than the guy accompanying her. cover by Nizhny Novogorod University Choir …check out the expressive body movements…this is kind of operatic to me – very dramatic. If you’ve got this far you should get a medal or something …well, anyway - thanks for reading my posts - hope you enjoyed listening to the alternate versions of Supermassive Black Hole...have a good night!

welcome to Grease Spot, Karin ! "I loved listening to that band" me too "It gave me a love of the Bible" me too

Aloha Ann, welcome to Grease Spot and I’m so happy for you !!!! I first took PFAL in ’74 and went to Advanced Class ’79 too ! Wow it’s almost like we’re twins ! I can relate to your excitement of when family disentangles themselves from TWI’s web of deceit. My wife and I were Family Corps and we left in the maelstrom generated by G33r’s passing of a turd paper. Our exit wasn’t anything as dramatic as what you described (standing up to leadership); we just slowly drifted away…after resigning our position, putting our relationship with TWI on hold and following up on what we thought were “red flags” in doctrine in practice…kept on drifting ever since…once you get used to it, a self-directed journey is pretty nice…finding Grease Spot was a big boost to our confidence – that other folks saw these red flags too. Family…yes family is a big deal! …took me awhile to get that…in TWI it was pretty much shoved down everyone’s throat that you put God and the ministry first…but that all changed when we left…the way we raised our kids changed – not just a shift in what we thought was important for them to know, encouraging them to think, respecting personhood, etc. but also interpersonal-wise…for example, one of my new lifelong projects became working at being less and less of an a$$hole to my wife and kids…I’ve found a big secret to achieving that is simply following the golden rule – Luke 6:31, treat others the way I would like to be treated. my mindset used to be ensconced in way-dogma – so I had this vague idea that I should treat others the way I saw wierwille and certain other spiritual a$$holes treat people. Their rule was “it’s my way or the highway.” Speaking of dogma - I love when you said “but after I left I experienced how large our heavenly Father is - He is not constricted in a box or by the dogma of The Way International.” I feel the same way…I'm now celebrating life outside the box on a daily basis… Love, peace and best wishes to you and your family T-Bone

LOL Chockfull !!!! Still not sure of why the name mix up – either you’re always on my mind or it’s a sign of old age…which reminds me of a funny family story: grandma – new in our country (yup a bona fide just-got-off-the-boat-type-grandma) would babysit for our mom and dad. She would get our names mixed up – or even call us by one of our cousins’ names. We wouldn’t respond even if she was looking right at one of us but saying a different name. Then “Why you no come?” she’d ask. one of us: “Grandma, that’s not my name.”…so eventually she’d just use a "generic" form of address – for example: “hey you, get a you pajamas on now”....grandmas - ya gotta love their adaptability.

that's my bad - don't know why I wrote "Chockfull"

Your analogy of BBs vs a Sherman Tank may have something to do BOTH with the sender AND the recipient...I thought Rocky was being sarcastic about your response to Chockfull - and I can see why Rocky said that... going on other discussions I’ve had with you - there’s been times when I’ve disagreed or asked for clarification and your response seemed to me to have been condescending (and you may not have meant for it to come across like that ) - like I haven’t paid attention, I haven’t thought it through, followed what you wrote previously, I’m prejudiced because of a bias, that I don’t see your point as big a deal as you do, etc...well I’ll fess up - yeah maybe I’m guilty of that sometimes - and I’m usually good about acknowledging that...but I’m not trying to be super-critical ...just offering some honest feedback. so what’s my point here? Sometimes folks might clam up, retreat into a Sherman tank and batten down the hatches if they think they’re coming under fire...I’m a big fan of considering other viewpoints and have said before I appreciate your input and method of analysis...but as I’ve also said to you recently on another thread - maybe your frustration is a combination of you not being clear and me being dense...patience and humility are virtues we all need to work on. and hey TLC, if I’m totally off base here - disregard...peace.

Just a side note - off the main topic - after re-reading craig’s homo-purge letter to the corps - I just have to say it’s one of the best reveals of the type of leader he really was: a true legalistic-loving hypocritical Pharisee with zero-tolerance during his tyrannical reign...what callousness! I think maybe craig just might epitomize the hardhearted element within wierwille-centric indoctrination... == == == == ...back to the topic: I don’t feel so compelled to view the Genesis 3 account in such a strict literal sense as taught in PFAL or in the provocative speculations by wierwille or craig...the fact that few physical details are given - I’m inclined to think the account of the fall of mankind , rich in religious symbolism may also resonate with parents - who want their kids to know the difference between right and wrong - and yes , learn from life experiences - but sometimes as parents we might not approve of our kids getting into things which are not yet age-appropriate for them... back in Genesis - perhaps it’s like kids ignoring their parents’ instructions...so maybe not a big deal on what the “fruit” was - other than it being like I said above - knowing right from wrong ...but maybe the kids wanted to take a shortcut to learning about that - to try to figure it out for themselves ...guess I’m of the opinion it’s natural for kids - and even adults sometimes - to be that way... we can be taught a lot of things...the rules and regs…”that’s the way things are done around here”...but isn’t it part of human nature to flex our muscles...maybe it says something of our indomitable spirit... but in a parenting context - we all know kids will try things anyway - test or push the boundaries - and hopefully we’ve tried to convey the reality of consequences (good or bad) from the things we choose to do...as parents we know our kids will make mistakes - so we hope it’s not something so bad that they can't bounce back from it; well...it’s all part of growing up - isn’t it? also...there's no prohibitive time-frame given to Adam and Eve - was it forever? or could it have been only for a certain duration in God's mind? Taking the account at face value - I'm inclined to think it was a test. something along the lines of a procedure to establish the quality or performance of something. you may look at the result as a failure - but what if the test was also to prove the extent of freewill? were they free to make even a wrong choice? it says something about the Creator - he/she did NOT create robots. It doesn't appear that God was totally surprised by what Adam and Eve did - given the fact that provisions for redemption were quickly put into play; besides promise of the Savior - banishment from Eden, the cursing of the ground and increase in labor - can be viewed as redemptive as well as disciplinary - which is corrective along the lines of instruction, training, reproof and such. So I’m not saying it’s great that mankind failed right out of the gate nor do I have some fatalistic view of freewill – that we’ll inevitably fail; lacking the power to act without the constraint of necessity or fate is not really freedom; but I do see hope in the overall picture – from the fall of mankind onwards – in that people can learn from their mistakes…indeed how does one truly learn except by real life experiences…sometimes we goof up…but we have to pick ourselves back up and not give up on hope. I think it was in the movie “African Queen” that Humphrey Bogart said “Things are never so bad they can’t be made worse”... I know it sounds oddball – but I think that suggests hope - if one can see how things could be made worse then they might also think of ways to prevent it from getting any worse – that hope is the attitude of a survivor – a person who copes well with difficulties in their life. …no matter how much I've screwed up something – I could still screw up the situation even more – or – I could starting working to rectify the situation: boom – while driving my car I hit a pedestrian; let’s make it worse – I keep driving – a hit and run. Let’s start to rectify it – I turn around and go back to help - or even 3 days later I turn myself in...sure immediately stopping to render aid is the right thing to do...but what if I freaked and drove off...well - that doesn't mean I can't change my mind and come back or turn myself in later...certainly not ideal but better than doing nothing. I don’t know...just thinking out loud in all this...hope I wasn’t too loud.

Every student in our class receives a free pair of reading glasses. They’re yours to have for a lifetime! Enables you to read between the lines, through the lines yeah verily thoroughly through and through the lines of the authorized King James Bible while at the same time verifying the integrity and accuracy of what wierwille said pertaining to a particular verse. For any passages not specifically addressed by wierwille, these amazing reading glasses will play a soothing audible message while at the same time administering low dosages of Kool-Aid-tivan to be absorbed topically via contact with the frames of the glasses; our research has found this is the best method to calm really inquisitive students so they can wait patiently to take the class again. Why not enroll in our class today – your very own reading glasses are waiting! your very own special reading glasses

Our research will show you how the Bible interprets itself, believes itself, and on occasion will even mark and avoid itself.

II Peter 2: 1-3 fits the cultic-ways of TWI to a T: 1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. The funny thing about being in a cult - the whole time I was involved in TWI - it never occurred to me that I was being exploited...I really believed wierwille was giving his all for God and the ministry - and so compared to him - many times i felt like I wasn’t doing or giving enough. It really took the wind out of my sails when I finally realized he wasn’t a good shepherd that did his best to care for the sheep - all he wanted was to fleece the flock! Merchandise is something bought or sold...A Cult leader makes merchandise of people - their hearts and commitment are bought with lies and empty promises only to be sold down the river...betrayed!

Skyrider, you had an interesting point “The pfal class held the keys to the doors alright......and once locked inside the cult, it was hard to find your way out.” That got me thinking about a lot of the benefits the PFAL class claimed to provide actually had the opposite effect - to your detriment - a few of the supposed “benefits” pertinent to your thread: Enables you to separate truth from error: Oh yeah fat chance of that happening...You get sucked into a cult mindset - not seeing the bad tree / false prophet / wolf of Matthew 7 - that you are now involved with ! You are like a blind person working as a teller - handling money at a bank (if the bank was a fellowship - and the accepted currency is disinformation, twisted interpretations of scripture, lies, polarizing ideas, deception, manipulation or anything else that has real value to TWI and serves their warped agenda ) - you have no idea if the currency you are handling is counterfeit or not - unless of course, the bank manager (wierwille, TWI, your local leadership) tell you it's counterfeit or not; and just as an fyi: the more counterfeit money you exchange or distribute to your customers - the more perks and praise you'll receive from leadership; you choose a counterfeit church over the local church that may have been a lot more transparent and served you better; the real “benefit” of the class is in favor of TWI - that you will stay true to their indoctrination and not err from what you’ve been “taught”. Develops more harmony in the home: as wierwille said in the class “when it comes to the word - I have no friends”; thus the litmus test for who you can associate with is whether or not they are receptive to your "stand" on what’s taught in PFAL; it doesn’t matter if it’s your spouse, your kids, your parents, or any relatives or friends - it’s either “the word’s way” (which is what wierwille taught as the true interpretation of the scriptures and you have now adopted as your way) or the highway...so either you split or they do - details of how to execute the split are sometimes worked out on the fly through a maelstrom of emotions, any dysfunctional family dynamics , the pressures of the hive-mind (TWI group-think), etc. Makes life meaningful: (Skyrider thanks for posting link on "the Destruction of Self" - I read that again - great stuff!) as you continue walking in “the greatness” of PFAL , your outlook and decision-making process get recalibrated to the TWI-mindset - what’s important to you now is what wierwille or leadership said is important; all your original hopes and dreams become morphed or hijacked into what’s really best for you and the ministry. Your purpose now is to move “the word”; as a matter of fact the only worthwhile endeavor is to move “the word” (aka - "get more people to take PFAL").

Well guess either you were not clear or I’m dense - probably a combination of the 2

Yeah but then there’s Luke 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

Ok - isn’t Acts 13:33 referring to Psalm 2...which appears to be a song celebrating the king’s victory over the enemies. The resurrection is perhaps an antitype or symbol - in that like Psalm 2 is a song celebrating the victory of the Son of God...maybe along the same lines as a reigning king who finally vanquishes all the enemies over his countrymen and to the people he has proved his mettle - he truly is their king if you’re trying to prove Jesus wasn’t considered the Son of God until after he was resurrected - you may want to consider passages in the Gospels where a voice from heaven declared he was the Son of God. As far as what was the life-force in Christ’s new body or it’s origin - - I don’t know - but feel free to share what you think...anything goes here.

hmmmm....on Sonship i left off the part about in what sense ...???...- Well ok - whatever floats your boat. Feel free to clarify in what sense you’re talking about...

Guess I should ask what you think Acts 13:33 means...I can only assume - since you have debated other points I brought up - you might think his resurrection had something to do with his Sonship - but you can clarify or correct me if I’ve got it wrong...if that is what you are getting at - that only after the resurrection did he have Sonship in the true sense - then I would disagree. V33 seems to carry the idea of an already present reality being manifested for all to see...similar to Romans 1:4 - he was DECLARED (or proved) to be the son of God with power...it says declared - not made...he was the son of God from the beginning of his earthly life - as John 1:14 indicates ...and also see Isaiah 9:6 - unto us a child is BORN, unto us a SON is given... So let me know why you brought up Acts 13:33

your question about how he did miraculous things kind of puzzles me ; and makes me want to ask you what difference does it really make as to HOW Jesus Christ was able to do miraculous things before or after his resurrection ...he’s Jesus Christ! Just curious - Do you have an issue with that - or why is it so hard to believe he could do all that? I simply imagine the changes to his physical body after the resurrection were quite significant- going on the testimony in the Gospels and what Paul said in Corinthians about the new body. I assume you are familiar with those details, no? You are correct in assuming I believe in the pre-existence of Christ - as conveyed in John 1 - in the beginning was the word & etc. as far as being a hybrid - i am simply speculating what John 1:14 means by “the only begotten” the Greek is monogenes - which can mean “one of a kind” or “the one and only”. Now because it says “the word became flesh” I see a twofold entity - or hybrid - a dual nature - - Jesus Christ - who is the word - became flesh - preexistent implied from John 1:1 - - human existence implied from verse 14. What does that mean to me? Jesus Christ is everything to me! he is my Lord and Savior !!!

I wouldn’t know since I’ve never walked through walls or on water....however if I were to hazard a guess - before Christ had his resurrected body miracles could have been accomplished in any number of miraculous ways - for instance to walk on water: change the consistency of the surface water to support his weight, change the molecular weight of his body, generate some gravity-defying force, strap on Iron Man’s repulsor-jet boots (hidden under his robe of course - and he remembers to bring an extra pair for Peter too ).

Oh yeah - I think there was quite a significant change - in ways that I can’t even imagine! ...please review first part of my post that got into superstring theory and our new bodies...of course - there might also be other things that changed differently for Christ just because of who he is.

On the spiritual vs physical you might be right; me on the other hand - a few years ago, I did some reading on superstring theories and other dimensions – so I kind of went in a different direction; if there’s anything to that stuff – it’s possible the spiritual realm is wrapped up within our physical realm…multiple dimensions folded up on each other – some theories speculate there might be at least 10 dimensions ( the basic theory suggests there’s 3D regular space + 6D hyperspace + 1 of time) that make up the fabric of reality …so maybe the spiritual realm is right here and now - even though in physics, the current acceptable norm is the 3 dimensions and one of time; some physicists look into a theory of everything - something all encompassing to tie every aspect of our universe together, stuff that would unify the 4 fundamental forces (gravity, electromagnetism, the strong and weak nuclear forces) for example...all this speculating in their various models usually requires that there are other dimensions…I read some fascinating stuff by Hugh Ross – using superstring theories he speculated on the nature of our new bodies – and with the ability to manipulate one’s fundamental particles, one could walk through walls or suddenly cease to be seen… I follow what you’re saying about God being spirit and perfect – and as you put it “What remains, then, is how any of us think that which is both (1) invisible and (2) inherently perfect, is revealed to man.” That is a lot to think about right there! Great point, TLC ! to follow up on your point I again refer to something CS Lewis said – which I had quoted in my very first post: "The human qualities of the raw materials show through. Naivety, error, contradiction, even (as in the cursing Psalms) wickedness are not removed. The total result is not ‘The Word of God’ in the sense that every passage, in itself, gives impeccable science or history. It carries the Word of God; and we (under grace, with attention to tradition and to interpreters wiser than ourselves, and with the use of such intelligence and learning as we may have) receive that word from it not by using it as an encyclopedia or an encyclical but by steeping ourselves in its tone or temper and so learning its overall message…" I’m not sure how inspiration or revelation worked in the authors – but I don’t picture them as being perfect or impartial conduits – in some trance-like state as God took over and flipped the override switch on their cognitive abilities – if he did do that, then I might expect him to correct any errors that might creep into the message as far as their current knowledge of the world is concerned - you know, as if the whole process was along the lines of taking dictation or something; but as CS Lewis suggested we don’t see that happening; they all had different experiences and backgrounds, vocabularies, writing styles, imperfections, etc. in other words they were human! I’ll even take it a step further – the Word became flesh. How does that work? I don’t know but I’ll take a stab at it – my speculation may be way off base – but it’s just speculation, anyway ...so don't anyone have a cow over this . What if Jesus Christ was a hybrid – being both human and divine…For kicks I once did a little Internet search on how much digital storage you would need to hold your entire mind…purely a sci-fi doodling whim – didn’t try to calculate all the memories, images, languages, routines, habits, etc. nor did I address consciousness or the soul…anyway I found some research already being done on this…I think one estimate just for our memories was at something like 2.5 petabytes (1 petabyte = 1,000 terabytes)…man, do you know how much music and movies that could hold? a lot !!! Now if we assume Jesus Christ’s physical body was perfect in every respect – perhaps we could up the overall capacity and “processor speed” somewhat – but I wonder – if God is infinite and all knowing – then how could the body and mind of Jesus Christ “house” all that? Again, just speculation here – maybe Luke 3:22 giving the account of the spirit descending on him like a dove might be relevant to understanding how there was a way to exceed his physical and mental limitations…After all I Corinthians 5:19 does say that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself… ...circling back to the issue – the Word became flesh – how does that work? How can that which is invisible and perfect be revealed to man? I don’t know…but if I had to guess I’d say God is never hampered by what "limited resources" (people) he has to work with – like Paul’s thorn in the flesh (whatever it was) 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong. II Corinthians 12: 8 – 10. One way or another God managed to get his spiritual message across to our physical world; whether it was in oral or written form…or in the person of Jesus Christ.

Hiway29, Excellent post - spot on - and I can so relate to all you’ve said; I’m sort of the Rob Petrie type (main character on the Dick Van Dyke show) - in other words I was a pushover and would never assert myself - and I SHOULD HAVE resisted all the sales gimmicks that they used to entice people to go in the corps...I pretty much went with the flow of things and did what I was told to think & do...thank god for Chris Ge3r’s passing of a turd paper. That was a great slap in the face to wake me up and start asking what the he11 is going on.

Yes...yes!!!! who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow Puppets know!!!!

Sorry I guess it wasn’t clear enough for me; as far as inerrancy goes - whether one looks at the Bible (any translation / version) as a whole or whatever existing documents that have been found - there are still obvious scientific / historical errors and contradictions . So to rephrase “my position” - I don’t believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures - even the original-God-breathed-hot-off-the-press documents...scrolls...parchments...post-it notes or whatever the heck you want to call them.

As far as there being any consistency in my beliefs I did want to remind any readers following this thread – that I did mention some abiding thoughts in my very first post – which I’ve quoted here. And as a matter of fact, even long before my involvement with The Way International – as far back as I can remember – I believed in a Creator and that Jesus Christ is an actual person who once walked the earth. Notice I used the word “is” and not “was”...just trying to express my belief that he is still around...anyway... I don’t really get into super-analyzing myself to determine if those abiding thoughts are due to being raised in a God-fearing family of Roman Catholics, the nature of faith, being a stubborn knucklehead or some other form of dementia. Speaking of my Roman Catholic upbringing as far as there being any consistency in my beliefs, I just wanted to remind anyone following this thread, of a few things I said and living in modern times – I never really had a “crisis of faith” over the Bible being true or not until I fell under the spell of a really sly con artist/fundamentalist by the name of wierwille. He’s the one who sold me on the idea that the Bible had to be perfect – that there could not be even one contradiction or error – or the whole Bible would fall to pieces. I addressed this in my previous post – I’m getting away from having unrealistic expectations about the Bible. I tend to think – believing that the Creator is an infinite being – doing the unexpected would be his/hers modus operandi. Wrapping your mind around that concept might be frustrating to a lot of folks (including myself) who like everything to be predictable, explainable…we may become stymied or frustrated when we “find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced” (quoting special agent Fox Mulder of The X-Files ).... I often wonder why this journey winds up being so unpredictable and uncertain…maybe exploring one’s faith isn’t for the faint of heart…it’s certainly not for the lazy who might like the convenience of having a prepackaged set of beliefs handed to them…hmmmm do cults attract lazy people? I don’t know. The best example I can think of in the Bible that shows how the Creator can pull off the unexpected is in John 1. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That’s a mind-blower if you think about it…The Word...in the fragile vessel of a human being was certainly unexpected! My goofball comic-book brain would have had some larger-than-life-otherworldly-looking dude come down to earth – kick some unbeliever a$$ and if even half the folks didn’t comply – he’d snap his fingers and poof they’re gone! (sorry – I should have announced a spoiler alert if you haven’t seen Avengers: Infinity War yet…my bad )...maybe the subtle grace of Jesus Christ not being a tyrant, conqueror or some super-duper-extraordinary-meta-human says something of what is expected of us...perhaps we are to be self-motivated to pursue him...Maybe our journey requires a lot of self-reflection…perhaps it's our responsibility to follow through on the things that make us feel the most fulfilled.

I can only speak for myself, and I mainly take issue with the claim of biblical inerrancy; and I do NOT have a disdain for the scriptures nor for the basis of its authority (God); I wouldn’t say I have a “theological position” – which to me implies it’s set in stone – and besides I always have in the back of my mind I could be totally wrong; my pulling away from fundamentalism is an effort to try to get away from unrealistic expectations of the Bible. One small side note on unrealistic expectations of the Bible -I think that’s where the health and wealth gospel folks have a problem; gotta get your confessions and believing in line with the Bible and then you’ll have good health and wealth. Unrealistic expectations can also be things like believing the Bible will unlock all the mysteries of life, that it has the only solution you'll ever need in any situation. Maybe you’ve got it wrong – I do acknowledge the incompleteness and inconsistency of my own beliefs. But let’s back track a little bit on why I’m not satisfied with a fundamentalist approach to the interpretation of the Bible. I believe there is a tendency in that approach to put God - and perhaps even the journey of faith – into a manageable format…a theology in a box…a tidy little package you could mass-market...fundamentalism being so literal, tends to ignore the cultural context and the adaptive nature of these ancient authors. You'll see it in passages where they may have borrowed or adapted stories from other cultures or how an author my reinterpret a passage used elsewhere. Another weakness - or confusing element of fundamentalism is that it does not recognize the ancient style of writing was observational. so if the sun looks like it rises (instead of the earth rotating) then that's what you write. However, we of modern times know that is not literally true. I think fundamentalism just might be more about being in control – having the vague notion that one can sort of manipulate God and others – because the Bible is so pliable…we categorize scripture…organize our doctrine…and expect the Bible to bend to our viewpoint – or damn it, we’ll make it comply. I no longer feel the need to put my faith in a book that some folks claim is inerrant even though there are a lot of contradictions, scientific and historical inaccuracies. I put my faith in the God who inspired humans – you know, those imperfect creatures – to write such a book – that will lead folks on an interesting spiritual journey. Maybe I should be the one who is flexible – and bend to how and where it will inspire me to go. Perhaps that is the problem with fundamentalism – it looks for perfection, completeness, consistency where there might not be any; for me , the most vivid example of taking fundamentalism to the extreme was wierwille in PFAL going on and on about the mathematical exactness and scientific precision of the Bible – all the while twisting and confusing similar accounts, resorting to his goofball pseudo-science, and mangling a lot of material he stole from his favorite ultra-dispensationalist Bullinger…wierwille’s mindset is closer to what you mentioned about “the kind of religious mentality that confidently asserts its own objectivity and unprejudiced reasoning, while at the same time condemns the biased and interest laden nature in the reasoning of others.” One of the most laughable tricks that really highlighted wierwille’s extreme bias was when he got into his argument for Jesus Christ is NOT God; and it goes something like this: unclear verses must be understood in light of the clear verses on the same subject…not sure if that’s exactly how he put it – but hopefully it’s close…anyway that makes no sense. The problem I have with that is there’s an assumption that contradictory verses are addressing the same issue. It also takes a subtle jab at the critical thinking process - sort of a "hey, just ignore that problem verse when I've got all these other ones to prove my point." Anyway, that’s all I’ve got for now, TLC…I appreciate the feedback and input…I’m always surprised when someone actually reads any of my loooooong posts - so thanks for reading it…peace and sweet dreams.