T-Bone

Tonto and I have just donated...we really appreciate what you and everyone else does to keep this place going!

SSDD Same $hit Different Day I hear ya on that one Why am I not surprised that offshoots and loners who think wierwille’s theology is so great…and even claim their spiel will be a new and improved version (or a revived and restored version...or whatever you want to advertise it as) wind up reverting to the same old $hit… it makes me think of the scene in Titanic, where Rose (played by Kate Winslet) is looking over some of the items recovered from the sunken ship when treasure hunter Brock (Bill Paxton) asks her "are you ready to go back to Titanic"

I wouldn’t trust Rico…his specialty was in covering up the abuse by TWI leadership…quoting from an old article on empirenet “TWI public relations head and associate Corps coordinator Rico Magnelli held a news conference in which TWI dismissed the lawsuit as false and without basis.” This is in reference to the Allens’ case – “Lawsuit Charges TWI Leadership With Fraud, Sexual Abuse” ... …of course that’s old news…but it appears another old can of worms has just been inadvertently reopened…

Thanks Raf I watched NBC news tonight on this – it’s looking pretty damn scary

Yes I too have a ministry - and it seems to be ever-evolving... A few of the objectives of my ministry pertinent to this discussion are: Expose the insidious nature of TWI’s doctrine and practice Help those who want to understand the nature of the mental blindness caused by TWI’s indoctrination (see Matthew 6:22 & 23). Inspire and encourage others to continually develop critical thinking skills Appreciate the viewpoints and input of others, no matter how different they may be from my own Continue to develop empathy with others (as one of the ways I can live the 2nd great commandment love thy neighbor as thyself).

great post Skyrider ! yeah - I can see the Horneys as being "a good fit"...she was a real ball-breaker during my LEAD session...I remember saying several times in an aside to my wife "I think she's trying to kill me by exhaustion." ...but praise the gosh by golly I made it through...I'm corps dammit !

Which is why I kept those in my corps assignment area abreast of all developments - any official words from HQ and more importantly of anything I could find out on my own (talking to clergy, other corps and even what I was reevaluating in TWI teachings) - i did this even after I officially resigned from my post and continued to visit all the fellowships in my area; I imagine a lot of corps that left did something along those lines so it didn’t leave folks in the dark with only the Board of Trustees stupefying communications to the masses.

That’s probably a safer way to check things out… …I’ve found from my experience with a cult, the more involved you get with the group the more they sink their claws into you; it’s called organizational entanglement. I think that’s why the mass exodus after the passing of a turd paper came out was comprised mostly of a lot of corps. We were the deeply committed and involved ones who experienced firsthand the “wear and tear” of the cult’s life-sucking machinations…I imagine for a long time prior, there were a variety of reasons to leave building up in the hearts of many – and perhaps the aftermath of the turd paper – which I think was the first truly big challenge to the power structure of TWI - was merely the tipping point in many folks’ minds - finally deciding to actually leave TWI… …while at the same time you had most of the faithful followers down at the local fellowship level scratching their heads wondering what the hell was going on – “how come all these corps people tripped out?”; corps were like a buffer zone, that insulated the lower levels from a lot of those life-sucking machinations…often softening any “mandates” issued from HQ, being a good sales rep for whatever HQ was “selling”, absorbing the costs (time and resources) of keeping classes and events operational and generally doing this with a good attitude because we thought we were serving God and the one true ministry…yeah, just sucking it up in the daily grind as long as that feel-good-pablum gets doled out to the masses and they keep that money rolling in to HQ. ...so anyway...if you happen to get more involved with them let me know of your experience.

How to issue a public apology? The same way they get their teachings out there - a website...newsletter...phone hook-ups...whatever - just use the same platform they’ve been using to spread their message. Maybe a reason why the sex and abuse scandals of cults are not in the mainstream news is because cults like to remain in the shadows - so they can have more spin control. As far as the offended party confronting the offender in light of Matthew 18 - many here at Grease Spot will testify how well that worked out...usually the person bringing allegations against a leader is declared to be possessed and/or railroaded off property “booms quick”...other defensive measures have been used like “Mark and Avoid”.

Don’t know how to find them?!?! that’s hilarious!!!! i can think of solutions to that problem; how about a public apology...come clean on any wrong-doings or cover-ups. You might be surprised at how many would come forth ; we’ve seen it in the news when a scandal breaks - how many come forth who were afraid to before because of what would happen to their career, livelihood or whatever reason. Being in a position of influence - a leader...a teacher...think about what you convey to those you mentor or know your personal lifestyle when you’re not on “stage”...a predator such as wierwille taught - by example - it’s ok to be a hypocrite - it’s one of the perks of being “spiritually mature”... in effect establishing a double standard . One standard for those in “the pews” - or in his classes or reading his books - and another standard for those in power.

I think it’s a matter of principle that one should make an official response when the organization that one was once a part of comes under fire for the predatory behavior of top leadership; to remain silent is to be complicit in the matter; that’s why we hear of institutions and organizations issuing statements condemning such behavior in their ranks - seems like that’s been in the news a lot for awhile now. And as far knowing whether or not they’ve repented -as if it’s just a matter between their conscience and God - is to reduce the act of repentance to nothing more than a shallow self-medicating drug to dull the soul’s sense of what’s right and wrong - especially when there’s others involved who were hurt by their actions - or in-actions - just looking the other way or remaining silent on the matter. So there’s a lot more to true repentance than just squaring away things with God almighty - Since we’re talking about things that happened in the Church - we should seek biblical references on how things should be handled; just to mention two that come to mind (there’s a ton more throughout the Bible) there’s Matthew 5: 23 & 24 about the priority of reconciling with those we have hurt - Jesus said that was more important than any religious or spiritual obligation; and there’s Matthew 18 verses 15 and following on dealing with sin in the Church.

Thanks

I think a TWI meteorologist would probably mark and avoid Florence.

Taxidev, I appreciate your articulate response and observations of R&R...and your patience! I’ve never thought you were defending anything...I said that stuff in an effort to get a feel for what’s going on now relative to what I experienced “ages” ago... ...by the way - I figure you’ve probably said this before and I just missed it or forgot - but anyway how long were you involved in TWI and how did you come across the R&R group?

you speak of giving them a chance to prove themselves – but perhaps what you think they’re shooting for might be quite different than what they’ve actually set out to accomplish… to prove oneself is to show that one is able to do something or to succeed at something; You have already noted the group’s excessive admiration for wierwille. That in itself is a huge red flag to me or anyone else who has already endured the frustration, intimidation, elitism, exploitation, and hypocrisy of wierwille…Jesus hit the nail on the head when he called out hypocrites like him: Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean... Matthew 23:27 I don’t mean to sound like an alarmist but anyone who thinks this group is new and improved on Bible stuff, should take heed – that’s playing with fire. It appears the only reference point this group has is the warped yardstick of wierwille’s twisted doctrine and practice...if folks never think outside wierwille’s theological box – they’ll never see how much of it actually goes at cross-purposes to Jesus Christ himself! …you know…even their chosen name for the group – revival and restoration – should be a clear warning to discerning Christians: Revival - a reawakening of religious fervor, especially by means of a series of evangelistic meetings. Restoration - the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition; the reinstatement of a previous practice, right, custom, or situation; the return of a hereditary monarch to a throne, a head of state to government, or a regime to power. Their goal seems pretty clear to me…they want to revive …reawaken an admiration of wierwille in others…to restore – to return to a former condition of what TWI used to be like under wierwille’s regime of power…revive…restore…or let’s just say re-animate the bones of a dead hypocrite… Buyer beware, if it smells like the same old $hit that wierwille dished out – it probably is.

Yeah and I tend to think offshoots of TWI have a one-track mindset when it comes to any questions that challenge their frame of thought. I thought of this the other day when I saw a sign in front of a Chocolate Factory shop: Chocolate is the answer! Who cares what the question is. I wonder if fear of the unknown…fear of being wrong…fear of what’s outside their comfort zone are real big factors in folks clinging to TWI stuff...to revise Chocolate Factory’s sign accordingly – it’s like they’re saying: wierwille has the answers! Who cares what the questions are. If you don’t like “wierwille” in the above phrase, feel free to substitute something else…for instance my interpretation of the Bible is the answer! Who cares what the questions are. the phrase simply means one is incapable of thinking outside the box.

Welcome back Bramble / Bramble 2 ! I’ve been through Wyoming a few times for work and vacations...and have some great memories in the Grand Tetons: Mike the Moose (who roamed freely amongst the cabins) nibbling on a shrub outside our cabin door...and seeing 22 eagles while we were rafting down the Snake River. Like you Tonto and I are looking forward to retirement next year...good to see you posting again.

Very interesting document- thanks Skyrider! It can be a long slow road from democracy to tyranny...and the less perceptible the transition is - the less likely a crooked shepherd will spook the sheep when fleecing the flock....a word of wisdom to all those wannabe cult leaders out there: patience, patience oh grate * and pompous ones. I don’t know if wierwille was always a power-grabbing megalomaniac but regardless - that April 1959 letter to board members is a nice soft sell job; makes me think of his spiel in the mid ‘70s was it (?) of each Twig or fellowship is self-propagating, self-supporting and self-governing ( I think it had another part - something like in relation to the next higher unit)...the “greatness” of the trick is getting you to think you have a lot more control than you actually do. == == == == Note * : editorial FYI - “grate” was intentional - referring to the unpleasant rasping sound when tooting one’s own horn.

Tired of not having all the answers? We can have you thinking you know it all in just 36 hours!

As an afterthought there’s something I want to add to the last point of my previous post - of folks referencing Philippians 1 as if to say “don’t be too critical of wierwille’s ministry since Paul wasn’t that harsh on leaders preaching Christ with questionable motives” ...Perhaps the type of preachers Paul had in mind (just going on the caliber of character that the Bible reveals about him ) were equivalent to some televangelists who want you to send your “seed money “ to them so they can buy a bigger and fancier jet for their ministry. Monetary ripoffs are one thing and when one wises up to the scam it might be easier to bounce back from that than sexual molestation which is probably one of the most intimate and deeply personal attacks imaginable... Hey guys, try to develop some empathy here for the women who were victimized...try to imagine how you would feel about all the stuff that wierwille taught you if one day while in the motor coach he drugged you and then he fvcked you up the a$$. I could be way off base in saying this but I just can’t imagine a god who is supposed to be loving and benevolent would also be okay with a sexual predator like wierwille molesting select women just because he also preached the gospel. As if it were a numbers game - his sexual sins / crimes against a small percentage of women was insignificant compared to how many were blessed by his teaching ministry...there’s something so fvcked up by that scale of values ! It’s just my opinion, but I get the idea from the parables of the ONE lost coin, the ONE lost sheep, and the ONE prodigal son in Luke 15 - that God is concerned about the INDIVIDUAL and NOT about how many people you get to take some stupid class or even to fill a stadium...if you don’t think each individual is that important to God then consider Mark 9:42 If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a very large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea... ...I believe it’s such a myopic view to have of wierwille’s reprehensible behavior if one thinks that his victimization of women was no big deal in the grand scheme of things or that (in light of Mark 9:42) there won’t be terrible consequences administered to him for all those he had caused to stumble.

WordWolf brings up some very important things to keep in mind. From the get-go wierwille tried to distinguish his “ministry” as better than any church or ministry out there. In my humble opinion there was always an underlying double-pronged message in his teachings: that the churches got a lot of it wrong - but not to worry cuz wierwille would show us how to rightly divide “the word” and get us back to true Christianity...however this is perhaps the best trick that he ever pulled off. I believe anything about Christ in PFAL was almost like window dressing - whether or not wierwille intended it to be that way; I see it as Christ being something like the bait on a hook - the old bait & switch routine. This is evident in practice once you graduated from the class - it was all about following what wierwille said was the true Christian way...the ebb and flow of followers of wierwille / TWI was the rhythmic pattern of old timers getting frustrated and burned out on wierwille’s twisted narcissistic theology and the influx of new suckers fresh out of PFAL. I’ve heard some grads reference Philippians 1 (about some leaders having a different motivation for preaching Christ but at least Christ is preached) as if this somehow justified wierwille’s “ministry” - to which I disagree since it is debatable as to how much of what wierwille preached was even about Christ.

Yes...yes! Did you hear that ?!?! Listen… …somewhere in New Knoxville, Ohio… …deep within a supermassive black hole… …very close to the center…the singularity of infinitesimal value where extremely large amounts of bull$hit were crushed into an utterly dense plagiarist… …there comes a single word…said in a restrained unison as if the word was escaping through the clenched teeth of the mighty pompous a$$holes… “ouch”

Hi mamcy11, welcome to Grease Spot ! I don’t play the piano and have never used any apps for lessons. But might be some good stuff there. I’m self-taught on bass, guitar, and drums. Back in the early 60s I did what a lot of my friends did – we’d decide on an instrument and start playing along with our favorite records. I have to agree with Waysider on things like those apps – being a way to augment or supplement formal instructions. Over the years I have taken lessons from time to time but also playing in a lot of bands doesn’t hurt either - you get to glean so much from your band mates. There's something to be said for teachers and fellow musicians - constructive criticism, feedback (not from the amp though ) and praise when you're on to something; people can point out your weaknesses AND strengths and provide options and direction too. Now music is just a hobby for me – but I still like to learn new things and review the basics. the other day I was checking out some You Tubes and found 5 tips to make you a better bass player by Yonit Spiegelman. Some good stuff there! I’m sure there’s lots of stuff on there for any instrument. What kind of music do you like? Do you have any favorite piano players or bands you like to listen to? Are you interested in learning the piano as a career or just a hobby or what? oh, and let me buy you a cup of cappuccino - once again, welcome to Grease Spot !

Interesting comparison Chockfull – between wierwille and Kaizer Soze…and another thing came to mind…near the end of the movie The Usual Suspects, the detective – played by Chazz Palminteri – realizes a lot of the details he got from his interrogation of the character Verbal (played by Kevin Spacey – who was actually Kaizer Soze) were things that Verbal (Kaizer) noticed on a cluttered bulletin board in the office. I see a funny parallel with wierwille’s incompetency “shining forth” from his plagiarism. Bullinger focuses on context, previous usage, etc. in How to Enjoy the Bible by saying in essence – these are the things you need to pay attention to when interpreting the scriptures. Which implies YOU as the reader of the Bible is the one who actually interprets the scriptures - you are the one analyzing the biblical data, noting details, context, syntax, using the powers of reason, etc. Besides the fact that people are fallible and there’s the possibility of misinterpretation – there’s also the possibility there could be more than one legitimate interpretation...wierwille twisted all that around by suggesting private interpretation is prohibited...I mentioned it before - that's another thing he screwed up! what Bullinger said about the passage "no prophecy of the scripture is of private interpretation" was that "of" is genitive of origin - meaning the actual scriptures did not come from someone's own interpretation. It is in reference to their source or origin and NOT how we are to analyze them now. You made an excellent point of wierwille’s twisting Bullinger’s ideas - to hide the hand of his own interpretation. Like Kaizer piecing together an entire story from a police bulletin board, wierwille cobbled together a mish mosh theology from the works he plagiarized. He was the consummate con artist!

Perhaps one of the most insidious aspects of TWI’s indoctrination was to instill (by a gradual but firm process) in followers a deep trust in wierwille. This is rather obvious even in PFAL, where wierwille worked so hard to convince students to suspend critical thinking. With his silly notion that the Bible prohibits private interpretation he asserts the Bible actually interprets itself, thus laying the groundwork for students to firmly believe that what wierwille taught was the ONLY CORRECT or AUTHORIZED interpretation of the Bible, the Scriptures, the Word, or whatever you want to call it. Given that even the simplest definition of “interpretation” is explanation, clarification, analysis, and evaluation – for one to claim that the Bible interprets itself is absurd! Folks may not still be in TWI but they may still be held captive in the bizarro-fundamentalist mindset wierwille instilled in them. It was merely a mental sleight-of-hand via wierwille’s charisma, logical fallacies, cobbled together plagiarism, and the unabashed incompetency of a narcissistic zealot that he got a lot of folks to think he was giving them a true understanding of the scriptures. I think that the more one’s misplaced trust of wierwille grew – the more wierwille’s subterfuge agenda took root in the person – like being intertwined. Perhaps a cult leader’s power is in part derived from the followers – their misplaced trust helps to cement the bond – or whatever “hold” the cult leader has on them… The depth and degree of wierwille’s “hold” on followers varied – for numerous reasons besides length and depth of involvement with The Way, since we are all individual and unique. Like any exploitative cult leader, wierwille was parasitic and he based his “ministry” on deception and manipulation; in the long run however, “holding” onto dedicated followers is unsustainable, in my humble opinion. People get fed up, frustrated, tired of being used and lied to, or they see through the bull$hit of PFAL, or start looking into red flags they’ve known of for a while… or for any number of other reasons – so they leave. Whatever manipulative “hold” TWI had on them is now broken…yeah !!! that’s the best kind of severing ties – when you cut the ties with a false church/family like TWI !!!