T-Bone

I specified limited access so no, it doesn't count! access = a means of approaching or entering a place you're talking about the killing of someone. you're conflating 2 different issues

But the cultural imagery in Job does NOT depict God as a judge - but as the sovereign King - Head God - in the council of deities...There's a difference...He is NOT a courtroom judge bound to uphold the law - He is King of kings - what He says goes! Please remove your head from the anal canal and review the idiom of permission.

Really? Check out I Kings 22: 10King Ahab of Israel and King Jehoshaphat of Judah, dressed in their royal robes, were sitting on thrones at the threshing floor near the gate of Samaria. All of Ahab’s prophets were prophesying there in front of them. 11One of them, Zedekiah son of Kenaanah, made some iron horns and proclaimed, “This is what the LORD says: With these horns you will gore the Arameans to death!” 12All the other prophets agreed. “Yes,” they said, “go up to Ramoth-gilead and be victorious, for the LORD will give the king victory!” 13Meanwhile, the messenger who went to get Micaiah said to him, “Look, all the prophets are promising victory for the king. Be sure that you agree with them and promise success.” 14But Micaiah replied, “As surely as the LORD lives, I will say only what the LORD tells me to say.” 15When Micaiah arrived before the king, Ahab asked him, “Micaiah, should we go to war against Ramoth-gilead, or should we hold back?” Micaiah replied sarcastically, “Yes, go up and be victorious, for the LORD will give the king victory!” 16But the king replied sharply, “How many times must I demand that you speak only the truth to me when you speak for the LORD?” 17Then Micaiah told him, “In a vision I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, like sheep without a shepherd. And the LORD said, ‘Their master has been killed.a Send them home in peace.’” 18“Didn’t I tell you?” the king of Israel exclaimed to Jehoshaphat. “He never prophesies anything but trouble for me.” 19Then Micaiah continued, “Listen to what the LORD says! I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the armies of heaven around him, on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, ‘Who can entice Ahab to go into battle against Ramoth-gilead so he can be killed?’ “There were many suggestions, 21 and finally a spirit approached the LORD and said, ‘I can do it!’ 22“‘How will you do this?’ the LORD asked. “And the spirit replied, ‘I will go out and inspire all of Ahab’s prophets to speak lies.’ “‘You will succeed,’ said the LORD. ‘Go ahead and do it.’ 23“So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all your prophets. For the LORD has pronounced your doom.” 24Then Zedekiah son of Kenaanah walked up to Micaiah and slapped him across the face. “Since when did the Spirit of the LORD leave me to speak to you?” he demanded. 25And Micaiah replied, “You will find out soon enough when you are trying to hide in some secret room!” 26“Arrest him!” the king of Israel ordered. “Take him back to Amon, the governor of the city, and to my son Joash. 27Give them this order from the king: ‘Put this man in prison, and feed him nothing but bread and water until I return safely from the battle!’” 28But Micaiah replied, “If you return safely, it will mean that the LORD has not spoken through me!” Then he added to those standing around, “Everyone mark my words!” 1 Kings 22 NLT For God to be a party to lies, it means God is partly responsible for the lies. Really? So, God can’t change His mind? 5The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord…Genesis 6 NIV So, the LORD changed his mind about the terrible disaster he had threatened to bring on his people…Exodus 32:14 NLT Really? Did God create the laws of physics? In the Matthew 14 account of Jesus and Peter both walking on the water – it is evident that God went against at least two laws of physics: the law of gravity and the law of buoyancy: 22Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, 24and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it. 25Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 28“Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29“Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus…Matthew 14 NIV maybe study what the definition of a miracle is...Just a suggestion

Rome City Campus: I’m running through Adam’s Alley…late for corps night…again!

Maybe you should consult with people familiar with ancient biblical cultures - I mentioned before Job is an ancient culturalism of divine council - as in a sovereign king’s court - not in a modern court of law . Please review my posts on idiom of permission- you’re really pi$$ing away what little you have left in your budget for this case.

You didn’t include the whole story which shows God is all powerful. Period ! End of argument!

This is irrelevant to you claiming God has limitations

Expand it yourself - look throughout Genesis and see if you can find scripture to show Satan and company have limited access…so far all your reasoning is based on conjecture. as a courtesy to your budget department I suggest you settle out of court. Scripture supports the idea the devil is free to be out and about doing his best to screw things up: Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings. I Peter 5

You have yet to prove your “law” that happens in real life! Where’s the evidence?!?! You certainly have NOT offered scriptural evidence for your “law”. Dream on Mike.

Nope! maybe you didn’t think it would help your argument. The context shows God is more powerful! You used a double spike of bull-$hit.

You’re assuming “access was limited” - Genesis does not suggest any such limitations; and you’re also contradicting your other argument in Job where Satan is “negotiating “ with God in a courtroom.

So far you haven’t shown or proved Jack $hit!

I think you have a skewed modern worldview of the culturalism represented in Job. Due to budget cuts I can’t repeat everything I said about idiom of permission in previous post - so I leave it up to you to review that - also someone mentioned theodicy on this thread - you need to check out that as well - The book of Job is like an ancient thesis defending the righteousness of God…He is not a wimp in the courtroom like you portray him. already handled Daniel 9 - you’ve got some thread reviewing to do Mike sorry for the short post - budget cuts, budget cuts, budget cuts.

Ooh ooh ooh – thought of another one! There was the time 450 prophets of Baal had a budget cuts crisis – fortunately Elijah worked for a God who wasn’t financially strapped: 20So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing. 22Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.” Then all the people said, “What you say is good.” 25Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26So they took the bull given them and prepared it. Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made. 27At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention. 30Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs a of seed. 33He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.” 34“Do it again,” he said, and they did it again. “Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench. 36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.” 38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench. 39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!” 40Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there. 1 Kings 18 NIV

But you left out the part where Aaron’s snake swallowed up the magicians’ snakes! 10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magiciansalso did the same things by their secret arts:12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said...Exodus 7

oops double post!

where does it say that in the Bible? Where are the double doors mentioned in Genesis? Where’s that documentation you promised in February?

A budget is based on one’s income and expenses. What is God’s income and expenses? also you’re describing limitations and deficiencies with the devil, Job and other believers. That may speak to financial, physical or power inadequacies concerning created brings - but what makes you think God is subject to any budgetary constraints?

What scripture gives you the idea God barely won in some spiritual battle? Are there spiritual stats you looked at? what makes you think God has to operate on a budget?

In PFAL wierwille taught the law of believing was the greatest law in the universe and works for Saint and sinner alike. He never said anything about it being a very elementary level - and never mentioned other forces competing against it. You’re just like that snake in Genesis 3 - you’re changing what was taught in PFAL! Oh my gosh! You add or subtract or change PFAL - you no longer have PFAL. You have Mike Doctrine!

Where in the Bible does God seem to tell you He has limitations in this spiritual war?

Thanks, Twinky but I’ve chosen the simple life of ministering to the bored souls of Grease Spot…it’s a silly job but someone may take it seriously.

in your world of make-believe you can have all kinds of laws and other forces. I’ll say it again. In YOUR imaginary world of make-believe, you can have all kinds of laws and other forces. Here’s the thing, Mike. To support YOUR thesis which incorporates the law of believing, YOU appeal to hard science – that deals with such things as chemistry, physics, or astronomy - things that can be observed and measured – YET - YOU do not provide evidence – things observed or measured to support your thesis that there are other factors involved. Science uses the five senses and logic. I don’t find you employing such means. Sadly, it seems the only counsel you offer if someone doesn’t get the desired results is to encourage them to continue to chase their own tail – to spend a whole lot of time and energy doing something but achieving nothing. Albert Einstein is credited with saying “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.” Referring to it as “the law of believing” is misleading in two ways: Deception # 1: calling it the “law of believing” as if it was an unvarying principle – a general or basic truth on which other truths or theories can be based – such as scientific principles …We speak of the laws of physics that are facts which have been deduced by empirical observations – these are principles – physical laws of matter, energy and the fundamental forces of nature that GOVERN matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. To govern is to exercise continuous sovereign authority over something or someone…Basically, to say that you’re operating the law of believing makes YOU the governing authority. Even if you want to keep up supposedly biblical appearances by mentioning “God”, it still implies God is compelled to accommodate anyone who knows how to use that power. The concept reduces God to functioning like a genie in a lamp who is obligated to do our bidding. In other words, you have more power and authority than God Almighty! Deception #2: calling it the “law of believing” as if it was the ultimate rule, like a binding custom or practice that should be obeyed within a certain territory. This also assumes that anyone who uses the law of believing is deputized as a substitute for God’s authority – in effect you assume you have some of the power and authority of God. In Acts 8 there is an interesting anomaly during the early days of evangelism. Simon a sorcerer who had amazed the people of Samaria was revered as powerful and God-like but when the gospel message of Jesus Christ came to his city he also believed and was baptized. As we follow the story, it seems Simon was more interested in the great acts of power that accompanied the preaching of Philip, Peter, and John - rather than learning more about the Messiah or allowing Jesus Christ to truly reign as lord over his life. When he offered the apostles money for that power, Peter said to Simon “May your money be destroyed with you for thinking God’s gift can be bought!” Salvation, signs, miracles, and wonders are from God ! They're not something we dole out - because they are not ours to give - or use as parlor tricks for entertainment or as sales promotions for the Gospel or PFAL…I think wierwille might have been a kindred spirit to Simon. The law of believing is magical thinking. A concise definition of magical thinking is given in an article by James R. Beck, Ph.D., a licensed clinical psychologist and a professor and the chair of the counseling department at Denver Seminary – in the book Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling, 2nd Edition published by Baker Academic , on page 708: "Magical thinking is present when a person views an internal thought as having external significance and power. A thought, although private and unobservable, becomes a substitute for action. The logic of magical thinking says that thoughts are powerful, and therefore thinking certain thoughts will cause various consequences to occur in the outside world. Magical thinking is not confined by normal barriers between thought and actions, between private thinking and public knowledge, between what is internal and what is external. Nor is it limited by the logical connections that normal thinking posits between ideas. The best-known example of magical thinking is the young child who, when angry, will close his or her eyes with the thought of making the disciplining parent disappear. The logic in this childish behavior is: If I can’t see, I can’t be seen. Magical thinking is common and considered normal in young children…Magical thinking is considered pathological when it persists beyond the age of its normal occurrence…Primary process thought patterns, including magical thinking, are thought to dominate the unconscious thought of neurotics…Obsessive-compulsives also indulge in magical thinking when they feel their thoughts can cause harm to others. The defense mechanism of undoing is predicated on magical thoughts, since wishing something makes it so…For example, the child who first hits an adult and then kisses the same person is convinced that the second behavior will undo the first; hence it is magical thinking." End of excerpts ~ ~ ~ ~ Edwin Wallace, IV, M.D. is Professor of Psychiatry and Research Professor of Bioethics and Vice Chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Health Behavior at the Medical College of Georgia. On page 984 of Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling , Wallace’s article titled PSYCHOANALYSIS AND RELIGION , makes a correlation with magical thinking: The omnipotence of thoughts, a mechanism particularly favored by obsessive-compulsives…is the unconscious presupposition that the wish is equivalent to the deed and therefore that wishing alone can effect changes in one’s environment independently of any realistic or practical action. Freud believed that in the animistic-magical stage of cultural history, human beings ascribed omnipotence to themselves, while in the religious stage they transferred it to a deity and yet retained the idea that they could influence the god, through prayer and ritual, according to their wishes... End of excerpts

A captivating story, So_crates , thanks for sharing!

I’m not attempting to defuse your arguments by saying you got them from wierwille - I said it sounds like! I will acknowledge your stupid thesis of bull-$hit is yours and yours alone. Daniel 9 is a narrative like any othe in the Bible that alludes to the sovereignty of God - He is all powerful over angels and demons all must answer to Him.