T-Bone

With Raf saying “To think that the existence of Adam and Eve as historical figures is more certain than the existence of George Washington takes a level of denial of reality, history and scholarship…” I think he DID acknowledge TLC’s extreme level of certainty. However, one’s certainty on a matter does not necessarily make it true nor does it mean that one has made diligent inquiries with the highest degree of precision or used any scholarly standards...and I wonder...if one's certainty flies in the face of facts or reality - can it be labeled a delusion? But I'm not qualified to address matters of science and history - or epistemology for that matter - but I tend to think maybe TLC is relating more of an opinion. An opinion does not have to be based on fact or knowledge. == == == == == …Wikipedia says of certainty it “is perfect knowledge that has total security from error, or the mental state of being without doubt.Objectively defined, certainty is total continuity and validity of all foundational inquiry, to the highest degree of precision. Something is certain only if no skepticism can occur…Physicist Lawrence M. Krauss suggests that the need for identifying degrees of certainty is under-appreciated in various domains, including policy making and the understanding of science. This is because different goals require different degrees of certainty—and politicians are not always aware of (or do not make it clear) how much certainty we are working with.” It has taken a while for me to come to grips with the tension between faith and reason – not saying I’ve got it mastered – but I do have a better sense of what the issues are when it comes to science and scripture. And in that regard I’m a lot more open-minded than I used to be…matter of fact, about the only non-negotiable belief that I have - that I can think of right now - is that there is a creator. But that is a matter of faith and not reason. I cannot prove a creator exists nor can someone prove to me a creator does not exist. Speaking of Adam and Eve, I read an interesting book – still digesting it and will probably have to review it a few more times to better grasp the concepts - but it has some interesting ideas that I think relate to this portion of the discussion. It’s "The Evolution of Adam: What the Bible Does and Doesn’t Say About Human Origins" by Peter Enns On page xix Enns says that scripture and science speak two different languages…that alone is a big thing to think about…and as I’ve mulled over some key concepts of the book I find it is necessary for me to rethink a lot of the Bible – and mind you I’ve expressed elsewhere my tendency is to shoot for a synthesis – and in matters of faith and reason it might be more along the lines of deconstruction or something… I don’t know…but anyway, speaking about the issue I’ve encountered on my own journey…when I got involved in TWI – I found that to fit in and be accepted by the group - it was almost like I was presented a choice…to accept the pseudo-science of PFAL or else reject Christianity…and there’s probably a similar crux for many Christian groups – accept or believe in the inerrancy of the scripture even when it touches on matters of science and history – or else reject Christianity...I'm of the opinion there's more options when it comes to valid interpretations of the Bible. so I hear Grease Spot will be gone soon…that bums me out...because one of the great things I get out of it (and more so in Doctrinal than in About the Way forum...I post more in About the Way than Doctrinal - probably because I tend to listen or think more about what's said in Doctrinal ...cuz it seems I'm usually exploring new territory ) is a reevaluation – or maybe a recalibration of my own views of the Bible…One last point I wanted to share from Enns’ book on page 144 – “Understanding the nature of the Bible as analogous to the mystery of the incarnation helps us to adjust our expectations of what the Bible is prepared to deliver…There is a reason why Scripture looks the way it does, so human, so much a part of its world: it looks this way to exalt God’s power, not our power…”

yes - thanks for clarifying

Ok – I watched the video again…there's a lot of insight into the nature of politics and the dynamics of groups & organizations in this short clip! ...and perhaps you’re referring to the alpha chimpanzee being impartial when “settling disputes” - are you drawing some comparison with the Mormon’s treating women with respect / abuse is grounds for excommunication – versus wierwille and his ilk treating women like second class citizens? I dunno…just guessing here…once again – I’m sorry for going off-road on this thread.

So I need to master the bipedal swagger interesting video, thanks Rocky

The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!) Twinky brought up a good point… It’s difficult to remember any clear thoughts I had on “the gift ministries” – but I vaguely had the impression they were a big deal...almost like they were rock stars - and the rest of us were roadies and support crew for them...but that in all likelihood was just how I interpreted things anytime I heard something taught on them…I never saw myself as fitting into one of those roles – and probably should have made more of an effort to figure out “my voice” in spreading the Gospel - - in other words – what was my main role? maybe folks like me fail to see the value of what we offer. There’s another passage that goes along the lines of what Twinky shared: We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully…Romans 12: 6-8 NIV I remember something a corps work coordinator said when I was working in carpentry for a block – “you can lead from within the pack.”…maybe I took it wrong but I interpreted that to mean I didn’t have to be the Alpha dog – but I could set an example to others of the right way - - and with the right attitude to carry out a task; being exemplary. Now that inspired me! Even to this day I have never been ambitious to be a boss or manager during my work career – though I have had those roles many times throughout my livelihood. But something I have always taken great pride in was leading from within the pack. More or less leading by example - from within the ranks; for me a great reward was often just being designated as a trainer for the installation or service personnel…So perhaps a failure in my corps training was partly due to my dense head of not figuring out my strengths and deciding on personal goals and partly due to the pigeonhole thinking of the way corps coordinator, just wanting to pump out great sales reps. (and I wonder how many of us simply accepted what we were told our strengths were and what our personal goals should be ) I knew some corps who were great – in terms of really being into service instead of reigning as a Nazi over folks...but it seems like for some corps - the more the ministry pushed classes, abundant sharing, witnessing…whatever – they tended to bear down more on those under them…on that kind of trend I could never get into leading from within the pack…I would just brood over how unspiritual I must have been for not getting into it…I dunno – it was almost like a conspiracy to dull the souls of men & women on the ministry-hamster-wheel-of-unfulfilling-activity… I guess different folks are attracted to different things…some people get into being the big cheese. I had a boss who was former secret service… one of my favorite pep talks he ever gave us was along the lines of “there is no higher calling than service.”… And that makes me think of Jesus talking about leading from within the pack: Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”…Matthew 20: 25-28 NIV

Wow, Socks – you’ve really got me thinking there! Wasn’t it something along the lines of a transition out of necessity for the early Christians to start meeting in the homes – since the Gospel message wasn’t that welcome in the synagogues… …but as you said seeing something like what we read about in Acts as just one facet of a “functional guide as to how to proceed to build what is really described as a growing, dynamic living organism. We're really like a body…” so maybe there’s some formalism…or traditionalism in the thinking of some folks who have an excessive adherence to doing some things exactly as they did in the Bible. I guess it looks biblical. …different times, different cultures…and a lot more technology…the Internet, cell-phones, blogs, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, books, magazines, "planes, trains and automobiles" etc. help folks connect, focus, organize, meet, stay informed and not just the social aspect but even scripture/doctrine/research-wise…we’re light-years ahead of the printing press – online Bibles, commentaries, research tools, etc...that reminds me - I heard of a drive-thru church on the radio...I'm not kidding...that's just another amazing modern marvel . a few years ago there was a discussion on one thread where I mentioned something along the lines of Grease Spot being my church. In some ways it still is…granted, it’s a pretty diverse congregation with no special creed... I think there’s an ongoing healing service in the About the Way forum…well, it’s great therapy for me anyway…and I kinda see the Doctrinal forum as a multi-faith * council where Grease Spotters come together to exchange ideas and information and to have a dialog about biblical/spiritual/religious/philosophical and sometimes social issues. (* by “multi-faith” in this context I simply mean "faith" is whatever your beliefs are - I just used "faith" cuz it sounds churchy ). but - - - - even though the times and cultures may be different – I think you’ll still find the same basic concerns are present: family, safety & security, livelihood, social needs, the human condition…purpose and meaning in life...so I think the guts of your religion, philosophy...or whatever it is that you believe has the "timeless answers" - should be able to adapt to any given environment and conditions to meet those needs. Yikes ! Can I ramble or what?!?! Sorry about that…anyway bringing it back to some thoughts I’ve had pertinent to this thread: who wants to revive and restore things to “the good old days”...or however you fondly remember things...Not me…honestly, everyone has had different experiences…I prefer to pick and choose what to hold on to and what new direction or directions to explore...as far as the R and R folks go - - I guess I am a little very leery or cynical that a bunch of “old timers” who have no retirement benefits from TWI now want to start their own group purely for altruistic reasons…getting back to the good old days or whatever it is they're trying to resuscitate …yeah – right – that’s some noble-sounding bull$hit if you ask me.

Socks and WordWolf, true that! after this thread I might need some R and R ...rest and relaxation.

I think you've got an excellent point, Raf ! I've had some similar thoughts too - but haven't been able to articulate them...kudos to you !

mine has too...Vincent's Word Studies is great ! Shortly after I left TWI, I “discovered” a whole other world of perspectives at an estate sale of a pastor in my neighbor; I bought a few one day and after looking through them I went back the next day and got a few more…I got the biggest kick out of reading one commentary disagreeing with another author over the interpretation of a certain verse – giving other scripture references to back it up too…this really got me mulling over how in TWI it was more or less expected that you absorbed information and never questioned or challenged the teacher…these commentaries awakened something in my head…so besides baseball, maybe this too was a thinking man’s game . I have a few sets of commentaries on my bookshelf but I always come back to these three favorites – concise, technical but brief with good cross-references: The New Bible Commentary Revised Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary vol 1 & 2 The Bible Knowledge Commentary vol 1 & 2 Speaking of II Timothy 2:15, I like what The Bible Knowledge Commentary offers in vol 2 page 754: “Paul had spoken of shame before men (2 Tim. 1:8, 12, 16); far worse is shame before God. Timothy need not fear such shame if he would correctly handle the Word of truth (cf. Eph. 1:13; Col. 1:5; James 1:18), which for him included both the Old Testament Scripture and what he had heard orally from Paul. The Greek orthotomounta, “ correctly handling” found only here and in the Septuagint in Proverbs 3:6 and 11:5, means literally “to cut straight” but just what image Paul had in mind here is uncertain. Stone masons, plowers, road builders, tentmakers, and (least likely of all) surgeons have all been suggested, but a firm conclusion remains elusive. What is clear is that the shame of God’s disapproval awaits those who mishandle His Word.”

Well that’s just it - - I can’t ignore who the teachers are…maybe it’s helpful for you try to hold folks at arm’s length – but I like to take it all in - I still go by a simple principle: actions speak louder than words...I’m not convinced anything is any different than before…the thing about such hypocrisy and callousness is they slip by unnoticed when history, context or any personal dealings with these folks are ignored…I’ve already mentioned about Rico’s “great” PR work at TWI to dismiss charges of fraud and sexual abuse by TWI leadership in an earlier post here . And others have commented on certain R & R leaders here , here , and here. I’m probably jaded about these folks because it all sounds like what I’ve heard before - - when I was in…it looks to me like all they want to do is carry on the same old con of playing at church. What credentials or titles do any of them have other than what they got through TWI? What makes their spiel noteworthy? Yeah, and how about TWI’s “great” standards of excellence! They told me The Way College in Rome City was accredited…imagine my surprise when one of the staff at a professional resume company looked into that and informed me that it wasn’t – and so they recommended I leave that off my resume. I would probably have some respect if I’d hear them renounce the insidious…dishonest…manipulative…exploitative nature of wierwille’s teaching and practices...and come clean themselves…instead of regurgitating the same old BS…but I guess there is something comfortable about the same old BS - - there’s no great challenge to one’s thinking. I think the elephant in the room is wierwille…his insidious teachings and practices live on in TWI and beyond...granted some of it may have been sanitized by now but no one wants to talk about the creepy side of wierwille's legacy. Sorry to sound so negative – I guess my criteria for judging are different than yours. maybe I'm just old school ...We reject all shameful deeds and underhanded methods. We don't try to trick anyone or distort the word of God. We tell the truth before God, and all who are honest know this... II Corinthians 4: 2 NLT

link to Rico's teaching "obedience to the household of faith" was a link on this thread in Skyrider's Sept. 13th post - see below

That’s a lot of teachings - and don’t think it would be a fair assessment on my part unless I listened to them all - and to be honest, i think it would be a waste of my time - I mean, the topics look like they’re about the hope - I’m not that interested in some feel-good-pablum over one interpretation of the return of Christ...been there done that... ...my intention in referring to Rico’s teaching on the household of faith was to point out the same captivating or ensnaring technique that wierwille used to make “true followers “ feel duty bound to stick with his group. Manipulative! My point was when a teaching or doctrine is put into practice- when the rubber meets the road - when a theory or teaching is put to the test...how do they handle it when their teachings don’t jive with the real world or that their teachings are hypocritical? Or for that matter - how about asking if what they teach is consistent with the biblical data? Do they get into dispensationalism? I know this is not the doctrinal forum - but I think there’s a lot more debatable issues than what’s been lightly touched upon on this thread. I don’t want to steer you one way or the other on what to think...I’m merely pointing out something obvious in Rico’s teaching. Another thing that occurred to me by you wanting my feedback - I was wondering what other churches or teachings, Bible studies, etc. that you have checked out besides stuff from TWI or former TWI personnel.

I think this is comparing apples to oranges; Saul of Tarsus attacked the church from the outside - being a zealous Pharisee. Phonies like wierwille and Rico (supposedly Christian ministers who should have known better) have preyed or continue to prey upon those within “the household of faith “ ( that’s their distinction for those committed to following some form of wierwille’s teachings)...it’s an inside job - a royal scam ! Not an outside attack - but sabotage from within. i realize your comment was in reference to yourself and the R & R group - - but I would be very wary of anyone who associates with Rico or for that matter anyone as their teachings are put into practice - starts showing their true colors as being some form of wierwille’s teachings.

Twinky: I think you have always been an exceptional Christian minister. I certainly didn’t mean to suggest the insensitivity and stoicism of wierwille and those of his ilk tainted everyone in TWI. I certainly knew some good caring folks who served in some leadership capacity…guess I wasn’t clear enough in my post – but it was really me being more self-reflective – as is often my focus on Grease Spot. As I said “I think in the long run (depending on length of time and involvement) many folks (including myself) developed somewhat of a “callus” of variable thickness over a heart that was subjected to the friction and irritation from the hard-hearted unspoken protocol that our “dear” narcissistic leader "encouraged" us to follow.”…I guess my excuse - or reason - for adopting an almost dispassionate manner of interacting with those I wanted to help – was ignorance. I didn’t know much about the Bible (still don’t ) and figured The Way was teaching me the right approach. == == == Allan: I agree – I don’t think there’s anything more callous than a supposed servant of the Lord sexually assaulting women who also serve the same Lord; I did say that not everyone who admired wierwille would become a narcissist - - but I can certainly imagine sociopaths in the midst of an environment like TWI – with certain elements that are conducive or cater to their lifestyle, having a field day…I cannot even fathom how such predatory a$$holes must justify or rationalize their behavior…As I mentioned to Twinky, my post was somewhat of a confession as to how TWI’s insidious nature affected me…I did not become a sexually depraved criminal…no…it was more like putting my conscience on a slow morphine drip…as I expressed on a thread TWI's sedative to the conscience as I became more indoctrinated going through the way corps training program, the more my sense of right and wrong was dulled…To be honest – I’m glad I got out in time! Who knows – I don’t think I would have become a sexual predator, that’s definitely not in my DNA, but I could foresee a situation where I might be tempted to cheat on my wife a time or two…and rationalize the $hit out of it with wierwille’s licentious logic. == == == == Peruser: Yeah howdy ! it seems us common folk were the stiff-upper-lip-stoics while certain upper crust of the crusty butts (a$$hole hypocritical leaders) were living the epicurean life like it was going out of style…for some reason that brings to mind Jesus addressing the hypocritical leaders in Matthew 23:4 They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden…NLT == == == Infoabsorption: Yes – it was quite a startling realization for me when I first came to Grease Spot and found out what liars and thieving weasels there were in TWI! (it’s a shame Grease Spot is going to close down )…II Peter 2: 1-3 comes to mind - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. == == == thanks all for some great input !!!

I think the callousness that’s so prevalent in TWI is empathy’s mortal enemy. There have been a number of threads discussing wierwille’s narcissism ...It’s pretty evident in his doctrine and practice that he was fixated on achieving some kind of power over others, gave off an air of superiority and among other things he never seemed willing to empathize with the feelings, wishes and needs of other people – it was always his way or the highway. As a person of great influence to those who were his biggest fans - I think it’s inevitable that a lot of those narcissistic traits would rub off onto others. What do you think ? I’m NOT saying that everyone who admired him and followed his example became a narcissist. Here’s what I think - no matter how much you were able to empathize with others, the unspoken protocol of TWI tended to squelch any personal observations or logical reasoning – “yeah, that’s just five-senses stuff anyway – because what people really need is the word”… right? How many times have you sat through a meeting on how to put a class together and heard something along the lines of “does it really matter if they can’t pay their bills, don’t have a job or have some hard-luck story ? Bottom line is they need to take the class because they’ll learn how to believe God to overcome any situation.” I had this dumb idea of what it took to be a successful “salesman” for whatever TWI wanted me to promote; it took real discipline and the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation (oh gag!) to suppress any natural rapport or compassion I might have toward others - and instead challenge the person to put God first – buying into whatever I was promoting…if I wanted to really tease them with the power of PFAL (double-gag in 2 barf bags!) I’d say something like “it may not feel right five-senses-wise right now, but spiritual-wise it will make a lot of sense to you later on” (ay-yai-yai 3 barf bags with a twist!). …Have you ever done something along those lines? Have you ever went against the grain of how you would have normally treated someone before you got into TWI – to try to motivate them to participate in something with The Way Ministry? Did you feel you had to wrap up your cold, clinical prescription of believing-the-word-is-the-answer-to-everything in something warm and fuzzy (whatever that means) so you could tell yourself you can still empathize with people? I think to be a really good leader in TWI – you had to be a really good salesman…a really good salesman will always find a way to circumvent any objection, reason, situation, or excuse you could throw at them in order that one way or another you wind up doing what they suggest. I think in the long run (depending on length of time and involvement) many folks (including myself) developed somewhat of a “callus” of variable thickness over a heart that was subjected to the friction and irritation from the hard-hearted unspoken protocol that our “dear” narcissistic leader "encouraged" us to follow. Perhaps one of the things that drives cult leaders to be insensitive and have a cruel disregard for others is the fear of losing control over some aspect of the person…just speculating here – but I would be interested in getting input from Grease Spotters on anything that I've said. love & peace T-Bone

Yeah Chockfull thanks for the weasel video I also thought this weasel fact might be applicable: A male weasel will mark his territory with a strong-smelling secretion produced from his anal scent glands ...sniff sniff sniff....hmmmm...smells like some of wierwille’s bull$hit...ahhhh, it’s gotta be from TWI or an offshoot !

Hey Taxidev - sorry to burst any bubble but all that hits me as just being a marketing tactic to convey the idea that - like wierwille - they’re into finding the truth...so - sorry to disagree with you but I’ve heard enough about what’s really important to wierwille and craig when I was in the corps... but to the general public it would be wise to convey the idea that TWI was really open to true honest research - and the masses bought it - as you testify to that...Now I would have been really surprised if the person’s research contradicted something wierwille taught....perhaps if you could be more specific on what it was that craig shared about this research from someone... you should have heard craig go on a rant when it was time to work on our corps research papers; “don’t try to reinvent the wheel” he’d yell as he pounded on the podium “base your research paper on something from PFAL !” two things one could infer from his rant: 1. craig elevated PFAL to the status of something so revolutionary and mechanically essential as the wheel 2. In light of #1 , he probably would not have been very interested in hearing about anything that would contradict PFAL or even to correct it.

Reminds me of the Duke of York nursery rhyme… When the weasels are out – they’re out And when the weasels are in – they’re in And when the weasels can’t make up their minds They’re neither out nor in. Ok…what else can I do with the Duke of York nursery rhyme There was a cult of yore That ripped off thousands of folks And weasels few fought for king of the hill Beneath invisibility cloaks But when you’re not in charge You’ll have to wait in the wings Disgruntled? yes, with this present mess Start a new cult and do your own thing alright so I don't get paid for my poems

The fact that wierwille plagiarized so much should be enough to make one wonder what were his real intentions. If it was to help people understand the Bible - why not just be honest and build on the work of others that he thought were helpful - giving proper citation and then expand on that with his own insight. Surely he learned something of value in all his education that he could share with others. And besides the big plagiarism issue with wierwille - i think his “alibi” for plagiarism of wanting to “correct the error” in other people’s works - or that that “God showed him how to put it all together to get back to the original word of God” is laughable because of the way he mangled the stuff he stole from others - showing his incompetency with biblical hermeneutics and even in simply understanding the biblical languages. Makes me think of pirated software; when you buy it you’re probably NOT getting something that has all the major bugs worked out, access to critical security updates or tech support; I think through his own incompetency wierwille actually introduced some major “bugs” into some of the stuff he stole; as far as “updates” - I know wierwille claimed that TWI was a research and teaching ministry, and if their research actually found something that was different from what they’d been teaching then TWI would change what they teach... ...yeah - how many times has that happened? ...If you haven’t read it already - check out Penworks’ book “Undertow” - she worked in TWI’s research department - her book is a real eye-opener on how wierwille pressured the research department to align an interpretation of scripture with what he thought it should say - even when it was counter to what it said in the Greek text! How about tech support for when you find a problem in their doctrine or practice? Your concerns were usually dismissed due to your lack of believing, your immaturity, you’re going by your five senses, or you need to get rid of all that worldly stuff in your home because it’s giving devil spirits access into your life - I mean everything gives off something - any dummy knows that - The folks who pirate software probably don’t want you to know who they are - they just want your money... I’ll take a wild stab on what wierwille’s intentions might have been...he insisted on everyone to call him “doctor” and that PFAL was entirely his baby from all his hard work and personal experiences. So I think he wanted more than just the money from classes, books, etc. - - he wanted the “ fame” - the admiration for all that he had done...What a two-bit money-grubbing narcissistic phony!

Taxidev: Elizabeth’s story is very moving – thanks for sharing that link…I was especially struck by her attitude after the ordeal – inspired by her mom’s advice to NOT let the kidnappers and all she went through for 9 months continue to have a hold on her; another amazing thing she talked about was forgiveness – and that it really was something for herself…she didn’t elaborate a whole lot on that point – but the relevancy to this thread really got me! Setting aside the contrast of her situation and former cult-followers (she was kidnapped vs folks who voluntarily join a cult – though at the time they may not have been aware of that) - - I think that forgiving oneself (whatever that may mean to you) is a large part of breaking the hold a cult may have had on the person; for me forgiveness meant not beating myself up for all the dumb decisions I'd made and all the dumb things I accepted without exercising any critical thinking skills. == == == Grace: I love it when you share details of your journey – exercising your critical thinking skills to not buy into everything while you were involved in TWI – but instead taking charge of your destiny – joining the Navy; I’m with you on your great point – to be thankful for the good people that I’d met in TWI; those sweet relationships were one of the toughest things we had to go against when we started thinking about leaving - see my comments to Rocky below. == == == Rocky: You’ve got some tremendous points on social ties and emotional support; Skyrider has started a number of great threads on the social ties – both the good and bad aspects of social ties; for me, one of the factors that weighed heavily in whether or not to leave TWI was the fear of losing contact with all of our friends…and in thinking about what I said to Grace, maybe there was a little bit of the Stockholm Syndrome in the way I felt torn about TWI. In ’86 my wife and I were pretty much the only ones who left our corps – it wasn’t until some years later that I was aware of a few others leaving; it’s not like we didn’t make an effort to reach out to our corps brethren and sistren - we were writing letters and even made some phone calls – but alas – we were on our own; the emotional support would have been nice – if folks weren’t so stuck in that mindset of thinking we were possessed, tricked by the devil, tripped out - - or all of the above - and more!...of course the emotional support from Grease Spot folks is a tremendously healing thing ! == == ==

Such a great point, Waysider ! Your post made me think of an episode on Silicon Valley where these 2 guys in a start-up internet company are discussing money and value...FYI - Jared - the nerdy starry-eyed guy plugging in cables is like me at the height of my TWI-indoctrination daze Silicone Valley - money and. Value

Yes - What was hidden from the local fellowships was the dark underbelly of the beast. I mentioned on another thread how TWI has two faces... ...there is the pristine Christian-like appearance to the general TWI audience ... ... then there is something like on the order of a wicked-stepmother-out-of-a-Disney-movie aspect of TWI, where the way corps ...are really the stepchildren (“fathered” by the wonderfully charming “apostle” of plagiarism...or maybe it’s more like being misled to think we are following in the steps of the school of the prophets of the Old Testament or even like the disciples of the Lord Jesus when he walked the earth...yes perhaps priding ourselves on having a child-like faith can be a treacherous journey) ... the way corps suffered abuses and exploitation to keep the cult machinations operational...we thought we were giving our all for God and the one true ministry... ...but I think all the hype, all the bull$hit, all the intimidation, all the monotonous and often mindless tasks heaped on the way corps just isn’t enough to keep folks on the unfulfilling hamster wheel indefinitely.

I’ll tell you what a real stretch is - wierwille taught t in PFAL “the Bible means what it says and says what it means” ...however wierwille promoted the way corps to folks as the best way to get into “the greatness and depth of The Word”... ...ah yes, the way corps program - a magical kingdom ruled by a sexual predator (wierwille) who was ruled by his own inner demons; he practiced the fine art of literary alchemy - a seemingly magical process of transforming what the Bible might plainly state into whatever he wanted it to say...also known as pulling an answer out of your a$$...or the abbreviated version: bull$hit. wierwille’s “ministry “ was really two-faced; he said one thing to the general TWI audience but the “heavy stuff” was usually reserved for those admitted to the inner sanctum (the way corps) - where he would elaborate, read between the lines, or flat out just claim “the father showed me”... ...I did say the heavy stuff was “usually reserved” for the corps but now thinking back to when I took his Christian Family and Sex class and heard his interpretation of the original sin being masturbation - as far as this discussion goes - I tend to think there is an even bigger elephant in the room ...think about it...wierwille not only sexualized the passage , and even went over slang terms, sexual positions, anatomy , etc. all the while conveying an I’m-so-spiritually-mature-that-none-of-this-fazes-me-and-if-you’re-uncomfortable-with-any-of-this-just-renew-your-mind attitude to the students; thus he ever so subtly encroached - personal - intimate boundaries and laid the groundwork for what he would say to justify himself to those who he sexually molested. == == == There’s a whole other problem I have with wierwille’s and craig’s idea of the original sin - they take a very ambiguous passage that lacks a lot of detail and imbue it with a very specific interpretation...that’s going way beyond the data of the text , taking an even greater license than if you wanted to handle it as say an allegory ...if you ask me, a real stretch like that is par for the course with these New Knoxville Gnostics...with wierwille’s penchant for reading between the lines of Bible passages and promoting the way corps program as a means to gain an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness- - I kinda think there’s a virulent strain of Gnosticism In TWI’s DNA...with the focus on achieving success or spiritual maturity by means of some secret knowledge.

Great posts Chockfull and Socks ! The Mc-Way ministry thing made me think of a McDonald’s in a small town we’d pass through on the way to visit my in-laws; seems like every time I’d get a hankering for a chocolate shake the voice coming out of the order intercom would say “sorry, our shake machine is broke.” What does that have to do with the way and spinoffs - hell I don’t know - maybe I’m just trying to say all these Bozos are frustrating - when you really want something and try using the “principles “ they teach - you come to find out their more-than-abundant-life-machine is broke....actually it never worked in the first place.

I bet that was based on a firsthand account