T-Bone

you've got that right !!!! Thanks Waysider.

Speaking of no marketable skills – I found something that reminds me to be thankful that we got out while we were still young enough to develop good careers…this “stay at home” thing has got us rummaging through stuff in the attic (God bless those waste management folks – here comes another big load). My wife (Tonto) had me drag a heavy trunk down to the garage so she can sort through stuff…I would not have believed it if she didn’t show me the letter. It’s a rejection letter from American Airlines to me, dated March 1987 (shortly after we left TWI) - in response to the Flight Attendant application that I had sent them – and I quote “…upon careful review of your application, it has been determined that other candidates appeared to meet more of those requirements.” Darn if I had made the cut I would have been something special in the air “coffee, tea, retemories” ...I taped the letter down to the concrete driveway with some blue masking tape so the wind wouldn't blow it away and edited out any incriminating evidence. …I don’t remember any of this !!!! shows you what time and age will do to ya. American Airlines 1987 commercial

hmmmm..."out of context" ?!?! out of context means without the surrounding words or circumstances and so not fully understandable. Waxit , you said "You quoted 2 scriptures in Romans and Colossians and both were taken out of context in regards to sabbath keeping"... You must be referring to the context of your viewpoint....I could quote the entire books of Romans and Colossians for an even bigger picture of the context - and my comment saying that they show we don't have to follow the command to keep the Sabbath, will still stand. Quit talking through your hat and make sense, please. And what if I claimed the same thing that you do - that after studying the Bible and praying for understanding, God showed me the freedom I have in Christ - that I am not commanded to keep the Sabbath. Uh oh, God is telling me something different than he told you. God is giving contradictory answers to two different people.

Ok – got it – since you insist on controlling this discussion, I might play along with your game for a while - but I hope you won’t get too upset when folks call you out on the way you keep changing the rules… … usually when I see this (vying for control of a conversation) starting to happen in a discussion I tend to think the person wanting to direct the course of the conversation is trying to steer things to their advantage, often by setting limits on what others can use as a reference - and in your case also hypocritical since you want to recommend folks read "God's Plan" and the "Rome's Challenge". Another thing I’ve got to get off my chest before resuming this “game” is that if it’s a conversation about something in the Bible, another straw that control-freaks grab at is “the-old-sincerity- plea” saying stuff along the lines of something like “I’ve prayed about this and God led me to this – he answered my prayer.” Sorry, but if there’s one good warning I remember wierwille teaching in PFAL is that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So I’m not buying it – I really don’t care how you arrived at your position or how enlightened you think you are – go pitch crazy-talk somewhere else. …and to me, all that manipulative stuff in itself often indicates the person wanting such control is unable to maintain or defend their position against attack or objection. …that being said I’ll post the two passages I posted earlier – and in keeping with your preference for just chapter and verse, I'm including the whole chapter of each for context – and I’ll keep my comments afterward as brief as possible. == == == Romans 14 English Standard Version (ESV) Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another 14 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master[a] that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Do Not Cause Another to Stumble 13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[c] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. == == == == Colossians 2 English Standard Version (ESV) 2 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ. Alive in Christ 6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c] Let No One Disqualify You 16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,[d] puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh. == == == == …and now Ladies and Gentlemen… drum roll please…here with us today to make some brief comments about Romans 14 and Colossians 2 …is the dude who just returned from a hill of Mars bars…the man…the myth…the intergalactic big head known to his friends as . . . .T-Bone: "Ah shucks, you can call me T. well, folks it seems pretty obvious to me that Romans 14 and Colossians 2 show that keeping the Sabbath is not something Christians are commanded to follow." (T-bone drops the mic – boom)

You’re right WordWolf – I guess the corps didn’t count since we were "the help".

Hi Rubina I just wanted to add my 2 cents - my wife and I enjoy watching talk shows and even the latest SNL that are now all produced from their homes. We’ll get into noticing the décor of their homes, knick knacks on the shelves, their casual attire and it’s always amusing to see the creative ways they’ll have guests and musicians get “together” and interact via Zoom meetings. That would be a great way for TWI top leadership to stay in touch with folks…but the more I think about it – the transparency aspect of it might get a little dicey. Then I began to imagine if wierwille was still alive – he’d be schlepping around in his underwear, guzzling Drambuie, chain smoking a pack of Kools…there’d be a bunch of porn videos sitting out on one of the shelves behind him - - oh wait - he used to do that anyway when I was in residence.

Never mind, you don’t have to bother reading the two posts I gave the links to earlier – you seem pretty convinced there were 4 crucified. I’m not interested in reading Rome’s Challenge to the Protestants which I found on the same website as “God’s Plan for Mankind” – though I did manage to read its two articles on the Sabbath – nor am I interested in having a private conversation about any of this stuff – - - - and here’s why: - - If you feel you’ve been misunderstood or incorrectly interpreted in an open forum – what will rectify that in a private conversation? I am the same in private as in public. I use the same vocabulary, refer to the same books and experiences, I try to be empathetic, honest and upfront - whether in public or private. I'm not interested in trying to fix you nor should you feel you have to fix me. - - I find open forums are a great way for folks to connect on various levels (socially, intellectually, emotionally, shared experiences) and to hone our critical thinking and communication skills – it has quite a positive cumulative effect if folks are polite, respectful and follow forum rules. - - My time is just as valuable as yours and everyone else’s. Since you appear to be so overly enthusiastic about “God’s Plan” and “Rome’s Challenge” why don’t you save everyone a lot of time and copy and paste select salient points from them and put in a post - and we'll all take it from there . - - And frankly, at this point I’m not so sure about your intentions. I mean, if we can’t discuss something as adults being honest and respectful out in the open why would I want to discuss that “something” in private? I did not spend 12 years of my life in an abusive and manipulative organization, going WOW and joining the Way Corps and not learn to be wary of underhanded approaches – if it’s one thing that some TWI leadership are good at, it’s manipulating folks in a clever or unscrupulous manner…I usually try to be polite – but if attacked I just might bite! ... WordWolf mentioned the rules earlier…I try to abide by them – though I have gotten in trouble a time or two …but anyway, I think a good rule of thumb for forums and private messages is just don’t say stuff that you would be embarrassed or ashamed of if it was posted on a billboard by a major freeway for everyone to see. …sorry - I often get verbose To summarize: 1. forget about the stuff I said regarding 4 crucified, 2. I’m not interested in any more reading assignments, 3. copy and paste in a post the salient points from your favorite docs, 4. be yourself and be courageous in open forums, 5. and until further notice do NOT - under any circumstances – attempt to pm me (thank you for asking me if you could).

I’d prefer to have an open dialogue on this thread...so you can just make your points here. I have not read the Rome’s challenge yet. Yes - during my 12 year stint with TWI - I did take (and also help run) the PFAL class numerous times including the live PFAL ‘77 class...and yes I disagree on the claim that there were four crucified with Christ - I thought I was very clear on that in my previous posts. Feel free to post your evidence supporting the 4 crucified theory on this thread also.

Having slept on it – as they say, I was a little hasty in concluding my post and think there’s some unfinished business…I would like to hear your side of an issue – What is the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ ?

Hi Waxit - let's get to it: “Since you are saying i am being selective in picking only verses that show sabbath keeping , Can you then show me a scripture verse that shows 7th day sabbath is not important and should be ignored?” Waxit == == == Yes – I can do that by going back to the passage you referred to in your starting post for this thread – I’ll include some of the verses around it for context: 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's…Romans 14: 2-8 KJV This passage is discussed in “Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans” by R.C.H. Lenski, copyright 1936, Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. Edition First Printing, August 1998…Before I quote from this commentary I just wanted to give a definition of a word that Lenski uses in the book. The word is adiaphoron which is a “Noun. adiaphoron (plural adiaphora) An indifferent matter. (philosophy) A matter that is morally neutral. (theology) Something neither forbidden nor commanded by scripture.” On pages 820, 821 and 823, Lenski says the following of the passages in Romans 14: In regard to any adiaphoron the first and essential thing is that each, in his own mind, consider the Lord. Note that the double statement about days is formulated like the one about food (v.2). Even the thought is similar, save that it is stated in reverse order. One eats all food and prizes all of it equally highly, while another eats one kind of food and prizes it higher than the other kind…It is apparent where the weakness lies; it is in him who regards some food and some days beneath other food and other days… …We see no reason for refusing to assume that the distinction here touched upon refers to the Jewish Sabbath. What other day would any Roman Christian judge to be above other days? It is not difficult to see that a few jewish Christians, some of them perhaps came from the old mother church in Jerusalem, still clung to the Sabbath much as the Christians did after Pentecost. This does not imply that they insisted on this day or on any legal observance but only that they closed their shop or their store, ceased work, and kept the day holy. We see that Paul mentions this adiaphoristic practice only incidentally, only as an addition to the question regarding food. From this it is safe to conclude that only very few followed this practice and that they did it quietly and caused no friction whatever. Yet it lay on the same level as the question regarding food. It is to be noted that Paul has no admonition regarding this adiaphoron about days as he has about food in v.2. This was an adiaphoron regarding which no one looked down on another or, on the other hand, criticized another. All that Paul needs to say is that each one should be assured in his own mind… …Paul says nothing more on the question regarding days. Already in Jerusalem at the very beginning of the Christian Era the apostles selected Sunday as a day of worship. Saturday was gradually dropped. There was never a legislation regarding the whole matter. All was done in Christian liberty with an eye to the Lord. Some Jewish Christians, who felt attached to Saturday, showed that attachment for years; Rome, it seems, still had a few of these. In this spirit of liberty we still observe Sunday, not as being commanded, but as serving our need for regular public worship. Legalistic ideas are still projected into Sunday; the worst feature about them is not that they center upon Sunday but that they are legalistic evidence of a spirit that is totally foreign to Christ, to the apostles, and to the Christian Church.” End of excerpts == == == It seems pretty obvious to me – not only from simply reading the context of Romans 14 but also following the arguments in Lenski’s commentary – that keeping the Sabbath is now a morally neutral matter and is not something that the Christian is commanded to keep. Paul said as much in another epistle: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days…Colossians 2: 16…Paul did NOT advise folks to forsake or follow such customs – but rather reminded folks of their unimportance. I would like to add something about keeping the Sabbath from “The Oxford Companion to Christian Thought” edited by Adrian Hastings, Alistair Mason and Hugh Pyper, Oxford University Press, copyright 2000, page 634: “Sabbatarianism Designates the view that divine commandment requires one day a week be set aside for strictly religious use. Within the Christian tradition, such a day includes community gathering, corporate worship, personal devotions, and charitable works. While sabbatarianism boasts a long tradition, it has remained a point of contention within the church. Two issues typically arise. The first concerns whether the OT Sabbath commandment, while clearly mandating a day of rest for ancient Israel, applies to the Christian church in the same manner. Most traditions today take the position formulated by the early church in the first two centuries, which contends that the Sabbath commandment of keeping it under OT law no longer applies in the same literal sense to Christians under the New Covenant. Through the death and Resurrection of Christ, the church has entered into a new epoch – one characterized by an ongoing, spiritual rest in Christ (Gal. 4:8-11; Col. 2:16; Heb. 3:7-11). While the keeping of Sunday, especially through celebration of the Eucharist, in some way replaced the Sabbath, Christians fulfil the Sabbath commandment more fundamentally by ‘resting’ from both sin and self-justifying works. The church thus obeys the original sabbath commandment, but in a spiritual fashion through life in Christ.” End of Excerpts == == == == == == Changing gears – I want to briefly address “the 4 crucified with Christ” – off topic from this thread but you brought it up here – “No you are right- Fred Coulter is the author of God's plan for mankind. To be honest I don't agree wholesale with eveything that Fred says Fred believes that there were only 2 cruciified with Jesus- I told him about the overwhelming evidence about there being actually 4 crucified with Christ- but he doesnt agree so I left it at that so go figure for a guy to write a book and not be able to see there are 4. Anywway that's not important but he is right on the money in regards to sabbath keeping and I have learnt a lot from him..” Waxit == == == == To be honest, I have a difficult time trusting your analytical skills regarding Fred’s teaching on keeping the Sabbath, when you say there is overwhelming evidence that there were actually four crucified with Jesus. I did challenge the validity of the 4 crucified teaching in a previous post mentioning 4 crucified - I think the teaching is a confusing hot mess of butchering scripture to gloss over the obvious discrepancies in the Gospels…that’s why I recommended the book Making Sense of the Bible which gets into great detail on how the Gospels were COMPILED (which means to put together documents, selections, or other materials from various sources). Makes a lot more sense of why there are discrepancies – and you don’t have to fabricate a ridiculous 2-additional-crucified-guys story that’s not even alluded to in the Gospels…I will say this, there's overwhelming evidence of a screwy botched up patchwork of scripture in the teaching of four crucified...many other Grease Spotters have delved into the 4-others-crucified-snow-job - here’s a couple you might want to look at: Oakspear comments on 4 crucified Raf comments on 4 crucified And there's a ton more you can look at by using the search feature at the top right of Grease Spot's web page...hey don't just stop at 4 crucified - use the search feature to check out other nuggets of fool's gold from PFAL - just punch in the topic in the search window. Needless to say, you might want to reevaluate your analytical skills - in other words - maybe you need to reconsider any “litmus-tests-for-spirituality” or criteria by which something is judged that you assume will cut the mustard. I mean that in the nicest way...after leaving a cult that continuously puts the kibosh on critical thinking - we all have a lot to work on now - those once "atrophied muscles" in our gray matter . We all have a long way to go - our critical thinking skills should always be under development - always improving - and maybe we won't figure it all out in our lifetime - but in the meantime - the fun is in the journey - yes, you're on a new and intriguing journey - what freedom we have! We get to choose our own path !!!...I choose according to what makes sense to me - remember Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool." God gave us the powers of reason for a reason! ...and so many things in my belief system are in a state of flux...and I'm okay with that...I'm occasionally reevaluating some things anyway - I do practice what I preach ..and so it goes - learning from others and figuring out some things myself...Grease Spot is a great place for helping to develop critical thinking skills. That’s all for now. Happy Easter He is risen

But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel. 5 And as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.” 8 And they remembered his words, 9 and returning from the tomb they told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles, 11 but these words seemed to them an idle tale, and they did not believe them. 12 But Peter rose and ran to the tomb; stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths by themselves; and he went home marveling at what had happened. 13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, “Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 And he said to them, “What things?” And they said to him, “Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see.” 25 And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. 28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther, 29 but they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent.” So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight. 32 They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?” 33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, 34 saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” 35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. 36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them. 44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” 50 And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple blessing God. (Luke 24 ESV)

true - maybe because they're all being shellfish ...I mean selfish ...don't give me those crusty looks over a bad pun - this isn’t my first Bisque-o-theque ...conch you sea this whole thing has gone cray cray...it's the urchin-cy of our times, man!

Hi Waxit, You’ll probably just ignore this – but I’ll say it anyway for the benefit of other readers…My impression thus far on this thread is that when there has been some disagreement about your viewpoint – you seem to sidestep the issue that others focus on and dismiss the relevancy and their reasoning of the biblical text that they bring up. Just an observation here, your go-to means of defending your position lacks specificity and basically amounts to simply suggesting it’s based upon “biblical principles”, “the rightly-divided Word of truth” or the idea that not everything wierwille taught/plagiarized is rubbish – and now more recently you were recommending to someone that they read “God’s Plan for Mankind” – it seems to me your position is untenable. Your responses are often just cliches...And if indeed this book “God’s Plan for Mankind” that you refer to is the same one I had given a link to in my previous post ( - and again here is link ) - I am tempted to say you might have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. In a previous post I gave a brief analysis of the 2 articles of "God's Plan for Mankind" on the Sabbath noting the author’s mangled use of Scripture and definitions…which brings to mind a book I’d like to recommend Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James W. Sire . Some of the ideas in the book will be familiar to folks who know stuff about logical fallacies .I’m not saying the author of "God’s Plan for Mankind" is a cult leader – but Sire’s book is helpful when determining if someone is (even unintentionally) distorting what the Bible actually says. While Jesus Christ as well as others in the Bible have warned of deceivers – perhaps it’s just as important to be aware of the possibility that we may even deceive ourselves: “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" …Matthew 6:22, 23 NASB That passage may very well refer to self-deception...If my idea of what is true - is actually wrong – but I think that it’s spiritual enlightenment – how great is that darkness! Perhaps a really effective cult leader is one who can convince followers that they’ve "seen the light" . Others who have posted on this thread (and may differ from your angle) have put a lot of thought and hard work that reflects an intense personal and prayerful study of the Bible. Unless you’re just proselytizing to get others to read this guy’s book you might try being a bit more upfront and honest on this thread and offer more substance from your own personal "homework"…just a thought… Love and peace T-Bone

Yeah I got a life...just so happens Grease Spot is an enjoyable part of my life. Raf, cheers to you and Paw and the moderators and everyone else that keeps this place going. stay safe!

Understood – thanks for elaborating on your editing, Mark. I’m still comfortable with my emphasis on Paul’s writings though. More so than other New Testament authors just because of the length and comprehensiveness of Paul's documents - I’m sometimes reminded of how Jesus Christ in the Gospels would also reinterpret application-wise some stuff from the Old Testament. Theologically speaking, I think Paul’s writings are some of the most crucial documents for an understanding of how we got from there to here (from the Old Testament / law stuff to the New Testament / the Christian way of life)…brings to mind a cool book I read a few years ago Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free by F.F. Bruce....here is a partial quote from Amazon’s description of the book: “explores the primary themes in Paul's thought as they developed in the historical context of his life and travels”

I won’t attempt to answer your question, Mark – but I did look into the book Waxit referred to in his reply to Twinky – “If you like, I can try and make arrangements for you to read and check out a book called God's plan for mankind based on an in depth study of the bible which opened my spiritual eyes. I understood why it was so important to God.” If this is the same book – I found it God's Plan for Mankind and you can read the chapters online for free – like these articles on the Sabbath: Sabbath the Sign of God the importance of the Sabbath here is a portion from the above "The Importance of the Sabbath": “Now let’s go to Hebrews 4, and let’s understand something concerning the Old Testament. We’re going to make this just a little bit different today. We’re going to answer some of the questions that some of the difficulties people are bringing up are related in some of the things that we cover here. Hebrews 4:4, now we’re going to come back to Hebrews 4 and look at it a little later because we are going to see that one of the major teachings of Jesus Christ did in fact, have to do with the Sabbath day and with your capacity to work and with your capacity to eat and drink, verse 2, Hebrews 4: “For truly, we have had the gospel preached to us, even as they also did…” Who is he talking about? The children of Israel. So they had the gospel preached unto them in the form that God gave that to them. “…but the preaching of the word did not profit them because it was not mixed with faith in those who heard.” So they had the gospel preached to them as well. What is this telling us? This is telling us that the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament, does it not? Yes, indeed it surely, surely does.” Maybe it’s just me – but after reading both articles on the Sabbath, with the lack of comprehensiveness and thoroughness neither article impresses me as being an in-depth study of the Bible – but I guess that’s a matter of opinion depending on one’s idea of what is in-depth. I think the author (Fred Coulter) is selective in his references (cherry picking) , and ignores any passages that do not agree with his viewpoint – as you (Mark ) pointed out by Waxit's lack or little use of referencing the writings of the Apostle Paul…Another thing I find confusing and a misrepresentation is how the author defines “the gospel” – saying “the gospel includes both what is known as the Old Testament and the New Testament,”…well, I don’t want to derail this thread – but in Christianity the term “the gospel” or "good news" usually refers to the story of Jesus Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection. Please excuse my post if I have been mistaken in the book Waxit was referring to.

I worry with all the spas and nail salons being closed during the pandemic that many folks are becoming prime candidates for America’s Got Talons.

The verse you’re alluding to - II Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” was something wierwille adapted to use like a weapon to divide and conquer – polarize folks to think in one direction – his direction as to how to correctly interpret the Bible – and then once the two options or groups are established – it became an us-versus-them-mentality – wierwille’s theology versus every other individual or group that dares to interpret the Bible. A cult leader develops a group-think-mentality among his or her subordinates as a great way to maintain control of the conquered. And for what it’s worth – there are many technical references that interpret II Timothy 2:15 quite differently from wierwille’s idea which suggested we all must aspire to cut through any ambiguity, confusion, errors, or contradictions in the Bible with surgical precision. RCH Lenski’s commentaries on the New Testament , Expositors Greek New Testament, W. Robertson Nicoll editor , The NET Bible , and The Cultural Background Bible basically they all handle the passage as follows: since the book of Timothy is addressing preachers and teachers as workmen – and may be drawing upon the imagery of a plowman – who should cut a straight path for others to follow in. Cutting straight having the idea of being true and honest – not swerving off course quarreling over words, irreverent babbling , subverting hearers and upsetting the faith of some, as the context of chapter 2 suggests...In my opinion, II Tim.2:15 has more to do with how a leader presents AND represents the Word of Truth. I don't think it refers to becoming a master at hermeneutics...That echoes something Paul said in II Corinthians 4:2 "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God." Not everything wierwille “taught” or plagiarized is rubbish. Another thing to consider is that the works he plagiarized from were not the end-all or the final word…the definitive answer on how a passage is to be interpreted. In other words, people aren’t perfect. Take Bullinger for example. I love his “How to Enjoy the Bible”, “Figures of Speech in the Bible” and “The Companion Bible. I frequently use them. But in my opinion he was a bit of an extremist when it came to some of his interpretations – leaning more on assumptions than what the text plainly states. He was a big proponent of dispensationalism – one of the chapters in “How to Enjoy the Bible” gets into “rightly-dividing” dispensations / administrations – which is totally hypothetically since there are no plain direct passages in the Bible that state such divisions. If you’re into dispensationalism - great. I’m not a big fan myself - I lean more towards a covenant theology or even a Christ-centric theology. Another one of Bullinger’s extreme interpretations is the four crucified with Jesus - another thing plagiarized by wierwille . In my opinion, this was a weak attempt to get around the discrepancies in the Gospels -which wierwille used to supposedly show “the accuracy and integrity of the Word” – to distinguish himself from other preachers and teachers. And if you didn’t follow his line of thinking on this as well as other topics with “apparent contradictions” then “your whole Bible will fall to pieces”…It might be of interest to those who enjoy reading the Bible to check out Making Sense of the Bible by Adam Hamilton . The book has some great stuff on how the books of the Bible were canonized and even statistical data showing how the Gospels were compiled. The idea that if one uses certain keys it is guaranteed you will rightly-divide the Word – is just that – an idea – a mental construct . It exists in the person’s mind. That’s not to say it’s a totally bad thing - - wanting to be correct is good - but don’t assume it’s a given - don’t presume you have the perfect formula to extract truth from the text. I think a lot of folks in TWI got fixated on the word "rightly-divided" as something that is totally devoid of mistakes if we follow the format laid out in the PFAL class. When I was in TWI many of us used to talk with such pride that we were in the ministry that has more of the rightly-divided Word than any other group. It made you feel superior and authoritative - “I’m right cuz it says so right there - RIGHTLY-divided.” I really don't care if someone wants to use the term "rightly divided" - just be forewarned I'll translate that to "using my current level of hermeneutical skills and critical thinking here is what I think the proper interpretation might be" . We have to use our minds in order to process the information before us – using things like reasoning and critical thinking skills (as I mentioned in my previous post about cognitive abilities). That’s why I said I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5. I put “contradiction” in quotes to indicate there might appear to be something theologically inconsistent - which one could infer just by going on what it says - simply reading the text . I enjoyed following the logic and reasoning that these Grease Spotters used to offer possible solutions to the dilemma. To me Grease Spot is not about condemning everything that wierwille taught or even the stuff he plagiarized. It's about encouraging clear honest thinking. Whatever people want to salvage out of all that is fine by me - since I do that myself. It's like learning to draw with a superfine point of a pen or pencil rather than using big broad brush strokes. Instead of black or white thinking - it's shades of gray - even technicolor ! We do not have to be a prisoners of all-or-nothing-thinking...which is a cognitive distortion encouraged by TWI . see the cognitive distortion of all-or-nothing-thinking - from that website the following: "A cognitive distortion is an automatic way of repeatedly interpreting a situation that causes us to not consider other ways of thinking about it. When we over-rely on cognitive distortions, we usually interpret events in such a way that fuels emotions such as anxiety, depression, or anger. All-or-nothing thinking is one such distortion. All-or-nothing thinking refers to thinking in extremes. You are either a success or a failure. Your performance was totally good or totally bad. If you are not perfect, then you are a failure. This binary way of thinking does not account for shades of gray, and can be responsible for a great deal of negative evaluations of yourself and others." And I like hearing from other folks who do NOT think like I do - it helps broaden my horizons - gives me a different perspective. It's not about how much I know or how much I can out-geek someone else when it comes to interpreting the Bible. It's about always developing critical thinking skills to better process what I study...When I look at Acts 17:2 where Paul reasoned with folks out of the scriptures and in verse 11 where folks searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true – I think there was a lot more going on than just quoting scripture or simply fact-checking if Paul cited a verse correctly. Paul reasoned – he must have employed arguments, logic, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead – since this was not something clearly delineated in the Old Testament. That’s why the Berean Jews examined the scriptures – probably a lot of them were familiar with the verses Paul had referenced – but now they were reevaluating how to interpret them in light of the logic and explanations that Paul gave. "Knowing a great deal is not the same as being smart; intelligence is not information alone but also judgment, the manner in which information is collected and used"....Carl Sagan

Thanks for your reply to my question. Now correct me if I’m way off track here – but when you say you are “referring to the truth in God's word that does not have contradictions and it fits harmoniously with the rest of the scriptures” it seems to me (whether you are aware of it or not) you have introduced an element outside of the scriptures – which is your own cognitive abilities , like attention, memory, judgment, evaluation, language skills, problem solving and reasoning to list a few of them. As the Wikipedia article states “Cognitive processes use existing knowledge and generate new knowledge”. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. In fact, it is necessary in order for one to make sense of anything…like deliberating over a water bill that indicates you had used 20,000 gallons of water last month, in your apartment – and you know you only use on average about 2,656 gallons a month. Through your cognitive abilities like memory of previous usage, knowledge of how plumbing works, problem solving – noting you have not seen any indications of massive leaks around the apartment, and decision making you proceed to contacting the landlord and/or utility provider. Now that might be an easy issue to tackle with cognitive abilities. Now let’s take the Scriptures and think about how we understand or try to make sense of the Bible. Again we must draw upon our cognitive abilities – and of them probably knowledge, memory, language skills, judgment, evaluation and especially reasoning are the most crucial. Besides the drawbacks of having to gain a working knowledge of biblical languages and grasping what ancient Near Eastern cultures were like, the context in history, etc. - often we are not aware of how susceptible we are to confirmation bias . As Wikipedia says “It is a type of cognitive bias. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply-entrenched beliefs.” So the additional and often invisible element to making sense of the simple direct statements of Scripture is our own cognitive abilities. This additional step of understanding (using our cognitive abilities) carries with it the possibility of an erroneous interpretation due to some flaw in our approach. I’ll put all my cards on the table. When I was in TWI I used to believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. Since I left, I have refocused my faith to having a relationship with Jesus Christ instead of believing in the pseudo-scholarship of wierwille and TWI - and in general even forsaking the fundamentalist’s interpretation of the Bible – where everything is taken literally and all is deemed inerrant. Do I believe the Bible is the Word of God? Absolutely! Do I believe it’s the God-breathed Word? Absolutely! And just like man in whom God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life – God breathed life into the Scriptures as holy men of God spoke being moved by the Holy Spirit. “Oh wait, is that a reference to Adam and Eve there? They blew it – we’re fallen creatures now.” Yes and that might explain why there are errors and contradictions in the Bible. Another odd thing to think about – Jesus Christ – the Word made flesh – was human. I believe he is the Son of God who once walked the earth – but doggonit why he didn’t write a book in the Bible?! We have inspired accounts of his life and lots of passages in the Bible that explain the meaning of his life (past, present, and future). I still study the Bible…think, pray, philosophize about it – as a means to an end – deepening my relationship with Jesus Christ. …well if you read this far – I thank you for your patience…and endurance…anyway I thought Twinky, Mark S, Allan, and Socks made some great points discussing the “contradiction” between “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8 and “One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5 That’s all for now folks

you've made reference to " the rightly divided word of God" a few times in this discussion - I was wondering if you could break that down - would you please define that.

Wow that’s a huge red flag – it seems to me like they're expecting folks to act against their own conscience. Yikes!!! Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water...Hebrews 10:22 ESV The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith... Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith...I Timothy 1:5, 19 ESV I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen…Martin Luther

Yes ! along my journey through crazy town were tidbits of "wisdom" that wierwille sprinkled all about...like the spiritual realm being a greater reality than the natural world...On Page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" wierwille says: ".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.' We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man." == == == == Makes me think of the old shell game - involving sleight of hand, in which three inverted cups are moved about, and contestants must spot which is the one with a pea underneath - it's a deceptive and evasive action or ploy; if you were looking for the truth he would be the one to show you how to find it. forget about the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses. Just trust in wierwille to lead you to the truth. For those of you who were in TWI around the time of the Jonestown massacre , remember how wierwille put his own spin on it - saying the massacre was accomplished by a conspiracy of our own government to induce people to fear cults. here's the subliminal message - relax, no need to fear even megalomaniac-type cult leaders whoever they might be (cough, cough) - instead fear the government that wants to take away your religious freedom... ...nice misdirection there. wierwille was the David Blaine of "teachers" – he was adept at making facts and reality practically disappear – by misdirection - as a magician conceals what he or she is doing by directing the audience's attention away to something else. Other leaders well-schooled in the fine art of misdirection conducted a variety of illusions. A time that especially comes to mind is the aftermath that came in the wake of Chris G’s Passing of a Patriarch. According to him, it wasn’t good enough to just have the facts – you had to know “the truth behind the facts”. (“what the fvck is that ??!!” says my mind now freed from cult-brainwashing). According to some leaders who bought into this misdirection bull$hit - to even think about calling into question a leader’s role or responsibility over something was considered entertaining devil spirits. And damn if you actually said something to someone else about it – you were accused of murmuring... ...yup - - facts were ignored...missed...glossed over...whitewashed...a magical disappearing act indeed.

The other day I heard on the TV a good tip to lift your mood – dance like no one is watching. So I put on one of my favorite albums The Four Tops Greatest Hits and throwing caution to the wind, I closed my eyes and danced like crazy – knocking over lamps, tripping over furniture and bumping into walls. Come to find out it means dance without fear of criticism or what others might think. So just for clarification – and safety reasons, the person actually doing the dancing needs to keep their eyes open so they can watch where they are dancing.

I agree with you 500% , Waysider ! Laughter IS the best medicine: “Laughter, it's said, is the best medicine. And there's lots of evidence that laughter does lots of good things for us. It reduces pain and allows us to tolerate discomfort. It reduces blood sugar levels, increasing glucose tolerance in diabetics and non-diabetics alike. It improves your job performance, especially if your work depends on creativity and solving complex problems. Its role in intimate relationships is vastly underestimated and it really is the glue of good marriages. It synchronizes the brains of speaker and listener so that they are emotionally attuned. Laughter establishes -- or restores -- a positive emotional climate and a sense of connection between two people, In fact, some researchers believe that the major function of laughter is to bring people together. And all the health benefits of laughter may simply result from the social support that laughter stimulates.” from Psychology Today article

well I think they were all being very cautious - I didn't see anyone drinking Corona