T-Bone

Rocky, Waysider and Skyrider thanks for those introductory remarks about some of the great programs that our ministry has to offer… and now, on to our main presentation – The Way Corps: A Lifetime of Indentured Servitude. Ladies and gentleman, I know people in the corps who haven’t moved the Word. Why? I’ll tell you why. Simply because they …blah blah blah…(can’t remember that part). I’m in the corps and I’m going to move the Word. Why? I’ll tell you why – because I’m blah blah blah – (can’t remember that part either )...getting old ain't for sissies, I'll tell you that. There I was, witnessing in a bowling alley. I was talking to a man, and had asked him if he would like to increase the power of God in his life. Suddenly, there was a power outage – the place went pitch black – all the machinery for the lanes came to a muted halt - you could hear a pin drop . The power outage only lasted about 10 seconds and then the lights and all the systems came back on. I used that event to segue into my sales pitch “Unlike man’s power which is often unreliable God’s power is always there when you need it”...So, the action I would like you to take is learn how to think fast enough to speak on the fly…true story but the guy wasn’t interested. Thank you all for coming tonight. If anyone is interested I will leave a Way Corps brochure on the back table by the coffee pot – thanks to Maggie Muggins for supplying the Postum. If someone would like to get blessed, I am believing for some gas money so I can get home.

Waysider, that's damn funny, man !

Thanks for letting me visit your Twig and share about "the living by the seat of your pants lifestyle" tonight, and I'll just leave this WOW brochure over by the coffee pot.

Of course you realize this is now going on your permanent record

"you can rant all you like" Rant ?!?!?! seriously, Waxit ? Rant: speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way. Hmmm…thought I was pretty mild and sedate in my comments. However, I’m going to take a stab at your remark and suggest that you may be projecting undesirable feelings onto someone else: “Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings. Have you ever disliked someone only to become convinced that the person had a vendetta against you? This is a common example of psychological projection. Luckily, there are methods you can use to identify why you are projecting your emotions and put a stop to this coping mechanism.” from Every Day Health . But I’m willing to give you the benefit of a doubt in accusing me of talking in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner. However the only alternative I can think of right now is that this was an underhanded attempt using emotional fallacy – when someone tries to manipulate a recipient’s emotions in order to win an argument – especially in the absence of factual evidence. Oh, and another small detail - since you're in a huff about me referring to a secular source - I’m not the one who first posted/referred to the Wikipedia article on the Sabbath in Christianity – you did. You focused on one segment of the many twists and turns that the Sabbath in Christianity has experienced throughout the history of Christianity. I focused on the position now dominant in Christianity. Thanks for expressing your finality of conversing with me - so I don't have to expect you to acknowledge anything I say. That's cool. However, since this is an open forum, I will continue to read and respond to anyone’s post as I see fit. I am not afraid of anyone’s temper tantrums, pontifications, nonsensical arguments, the manipulation of scripture or attempts to take over control of an open discussion. I’m not accusing anyone in particular of all that – just saying if the shoe fits - wear it. I have my own faults and will readily admit to them – half the time I’m walking around in clown shoes anyway – soooooo…lighten up! Folks don’t take much of what I say seriously anyway - - can’t say that I blame them – just look at my avatar.

This isn’t rocket science my friend. I am merely stating what a plain and simple reading of the scriptures show. I am not accusing you of having poor technical skills – I am merely finding fault with your logic and forcing your bias into the interpretation of scripture. I don’t consider my participation – or anyone else’s – on this thread as a joke. Believe me I am not offended in any way by what you’ve said. And I hope I haven’t offended you. I’ve done my best to "cross-examine" your ideas, as it were – and did not mean for you to take anything I said as a personal attack.. By the way, thanks for the Wikipedia reference on the Sabbath… " Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath in the sense of a day set aside for rest and worship. This practice was established within Judaism through Mosaic Law, reflecting the commandment to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy and God's blessing of the seventh day (Saturday) making it holy, "because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation" .The practice was associated with the assembly of the people to worship in synagogues on the day known as the Sabbath...The position now dominant in Christianity is that observance of Sunday, called the Lord's Day, has supplanted or superseded the Jewish seventh-day sabbath commandment." …and note it says “Sabbath in Christianity is the inclusion or adoption in Christianity of a sabbath in the sense of a day set aside for rest and worship.” “inclusion” and “adoption” speak of the prerogative of our Christian freedom in light of what Christ has accomplished – and does not suggest it was a matter of compliance to some existing law. love & peace T-Bone

Maybe we’ve stumbled upon another tributary flowing into the rabbit hole. So let’s back up and look at this too. your statement “like your verse in romans and Peter' vision ihas nothing to do with clean and unclean food per se and the rules have not changed and certainly doesnt diminish the importance of the 7th day Sabbath keeping relationship and 4th commandment of God ” is a hot mess of circular reasoning. It’s an obvious attempt by you to negate - or perhaps I should put it more emphatically – contradict the obvious meaning of passages that clearly show “the rules” have indeed changed regarding certain foods. Jesus even addressed this in Mark 7 14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” 17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) 20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.” Mark 7: 14-23 NIV As mentioned by other folks on this thread - the burden of proof is upon your shoulders – the rules of debate require you to show by a preponderance of evidence the facts – scriptural evidence – necessary to win the argument that the rules have not changed – even after the revelation of “the gospel” of Jesus Christ – the “good news” of all that was accomplished in the birth, life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. As I mentioned before, commenting on this post – I had such hope you were starting to get on the right track – if I remember correctly from PFAL, wierwille said something along the lines of Hebrews being written to Old Testament minded believers. Even a casual reading of Hebrews will echo that idea of not turning back to Old Testament Law – as reflected in Wikipedia’s article on Hebrews: “Its purpose was to exhort Christians to persevere in the face of persecution. At this time, certain believers were considering turning back to Judaism (the Jewish system of law) to escape being persecuted for accepting Christ as their saviour, now following this system of grace (saved by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross)” from Wikipedia article Hebrews

I love that, Skyrider !!!!!!!!! thanks for sharing.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but far from presenting a clearer picture- your replies tend to obfuscate the topic we’re discussing. I have tried to point out a few of the faults in your logic and your misinterpretations of scripture as we went along – but alas you seem to be stuck in a certain mindset. After carefully examining the scriptures many, many times, exercising the appropriate hermeneutics which takes into consideration all of what you mentioned and more – it seems rather obvious to me the rules have changed - keeping the Sabbath is no longer required. You may claim you’ve been enlightened and even insinuate I am biased toward this subject which will allow Satan to exploit such weakness - but after considering the adamant bias glaringly obvious in your posts, it appears you’ve already been exploited. But I’m not saying by Satan – perhaps you’ve jumped from the frying pan into the fire – leaving one cult for another. Certain mindsets can be very complicated to unravel…but there’s hope. Grease Spot is a good place to start peeling back the layers of a very convoluted onion. You are not upsetting me in the least. This thread is a good exercise in critical thinking. I’m always up for learning new things – and I even can take a lot of constructive criticism. Thanks to you, I am trying to be as brief as possible and rely more on my own reasoning and arguments instead of quoting commentaries and other sources. So, thanks a million, Waxit – and probably some other Grease Spotters might thank you for that too . Hope you stick around – Grease Spot is a great place for all of us to grow. Getting back to what you said “Under the new covenant in Jesus Christ, particluar components like animal sacrifices and physical circumcision may change but the 7th day sabbath commandment devoted to God is etched in stone” , you have yet to provide scriptural evidence to support this statement. Just for clarification, when you said “Do you think after this vision, the rules changed and Peter would love to eat bats? Bring it on corona virus- people go against God's commandments of clean and unclean meat and the whole world gets a hiding” – are you suggesting this current pandemic is due to people going against God’s commandments? And as far as your recommendation to “examine the scriptures in light of what I have shared with you and pray with all your heart for understanding the truth about 7th day sabbath keeping” – I’m way ahead of your recommendation on that and many other things; through tedious personal Bible study, prayer, reflection and exercising the ol’ noggin I’ve reevaluated many things that I was taught in PFAL. Like everybody else, I held onto what I thought was okay and then moved on to bigger and better things . After reading this, I thought “okay, now we’re getting somewhere. Finally, Waxit is trying to use something from PFAL/Bullinger that we’re all familiar with – and then maybe he’ll see that Sabbath keeping is not applicable based on to whom it’s addressed.” That’s why I asked “To whom was the Old Testament written ?” so far you have not provided any scriptural or historical proof or logical arguments for answering the subject in question. so in other words you're fudging on the PFAL/Bullinger principle of "to whom it is written"...you're not being consistent with the very principles that you tout as being so wonderful, important and necessary to "rightly-dividing the Word" ....wierwille and Bullinger would roll over in their graves if they heard you say "The old testament was written for all of God's people."

And when you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave the Rock, Grasshopper.

Oh yeah..."WOW-Burgers good...flies bad" (said like Kevin from "The Office") ...At the Rock, my son and I armed with flyswatters would growl our war-cry “all flies must die” ...usually the nights were cooler - I'd go get 2 cups of coffee and 2 slices of pie for me and Tonto. yum !!!!

To whom was the Old Testament written ?

I’m on sabbatical…if you feel you’ve reached this post in error, please hang up and try again

This picture was taken 10 minutes before the document was put in the shredder…Only the name has been changed to protect the innocent. I remember some WOWs sent to our area – they all were wearing sweatshirts that said “I operate all nine all the time” I thought of a way to re-purpose that sweatshirt but it only works if you’re a very busy surgeon: I operate all nine all the time

"Before we discuss "did God change this rule in The Law?" we should discuss whether God changes rules at all, - and if The Law is fully applicable to all Christians here and now." My short answer: part A - If there’s anything to dispensationalism, I would say yes – God does change “the rules”. part B - depends on how you define "The Law" as to what is fully applicable to all Christians. "So, do Christians need to follow all of the Mosaic Law? - Are all the rules of before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension and Pentecost still in full effect?" My short answer: part A - depends on how you define "all of the Mosaic Law" part B - If there’s anything to “the gospel” (which may be shorthand for the far-reaching ramifications of the birth, life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ) – then I would say no – not all “rules” before Christ are still in effect.

Good point – my problem is most of the time I don’t know what I’m talking about …and I’m lazy so I hit the repeat button…ah shoot I’ve said too much already.

yeah I thought it was funny, Mark...made me recall how I use to jokingly revise the great principle "God spirit teaches his creation in you, which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind - which is now your mind..." hmmm I thought it was funny at the time...anyway..."glad I don't get paid for my stowies" Thanks for the funny

I think you're getting warmer

Hi Twinky, I’ll have to defer to WordWolf on this one – who may know more about this stuff than I can remember (darn those termites of age and time). I was in one of the two bands from the Family Corps campus that played in the music challenge… Can’t remember if TWI had several music challenges – like 1 per year or something...but hey I've got the commemorative hat …but thanks Mr Wolf for your input…that’s part of the reason why I started this thread – it’s open to anyone who wants to share TWI memories: good, bad, or indifferent…some folks’ input might help me fill in the gaps.

Hi Waxit ! When you said “God's supreme authority is always in line with His word. He will never contradiact His sabbath commandment in Exodus 20” – I’ll have to disagree with you there. When we say the person’s powers or actions are in line with something – it usually means their actions or powers are in agreement with, in accordance with or consistent with something. For example “In line with our normal policies, he will be suspended for three games.” One can also infer by the way the sentences are constructed in my example of a game of sports - and your statement quoted above – the ultimate authority is shown to be “our normal policies” or in your statement “His word”. This logically indicates that the game player and God are in subjection to or under the control of said “policies” or “word”. If the game player does not abide by the rules he/she is out or suspended from the game. To suggest that there is something more powerful or that has more authority than God Almighty is laughable to me. Makes me think of wierwille’s ridiculous teaching on “the law of believing” – talking about if you or someone had set their own time of death, wierwille said God would have to change all the laws of the universe not to accommodate you. wierwille's theology presents "the law of believing" like it is the Force of Star Wars - it works for saint and sinner alike; it portrays God almighty as something like a genie in a bottle - or a genie in the Bible - you have to rub the Bible the right way (confess it, believe it or it won't come to pass). but I digress...my point is some folks with preconceived ideas have a tendency to use the Bible as a means to "incarcerate" God because of offenses to their preconceived ideas - also known as putting God in a box...God is a whole lot bigger than the Bible or any theological box one can construct. You said ““Paul or the angels will never bring a different message Galatians 1: G 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. How can PPaul preach something other than what he Himself was keeping- 7th day sabbath?” The obvious fallacy that you present is that you’ve already made your case on keeping the Sabbath and that the case is closed because Jesus Christ as Lord of the Sabbath said he is the same yesterday, today and forever – and so he didn’t change the command to keep the Sabbath…well, the fact is - he didn’t say that about himself – it was the writer of Hebrews who said that in Heb. 13:8 (see entire chapter posted below) – and nowhere in the context of the book of Hebrews (you can check out the entire book on your own ) does it state, suggest or imply that keeping the Sabbath is the same yesterday, today and forever. But anyway - I am confused over your logic. To equate God or Jesus Christ – (beings with unchanging, consistent attributes) – with your wishful thinking of a command that does not change is also laughable. I think just because a being has unchanging, consistent attributes – it does not mean that the being can’t change their mind or change the way they do things (you can see examples of this below Hebrews 13)...by the way, the attributes of God is a whole other topic - but regarding this thread, I just wanted to make a distinction between God and the things he has done...between the lawgiver and the law. Certainly God does not change in his character - but he is in charge in regards to the grand scheme of things and so he may choose to change the way he "manages" situations. You apparently like to collapse contexts in an attempt to make your argument – by taking unrelated passages as if they belonged together. This fallacy is an especially knotty issue because it is the corruption of a perfectly good principle of reading the Bible – comparing scripture with scripture. To select some passage which agrees with your preconceived idea (like Exodus 20 regarding the Sabbath) while ignoring passages that don’t agree with your preconceived idea (like Romans 14 and Colossians 2) is a huge mistake. It’s along the lines of selective citing or cherry-picking scripture. You make a couple of incorrect assumptions in your Galatians 1 reference (I have posted Galatians 1 further down – after the verses that show God changing his mind). You conflate “the gospel” with or as being a part of the commandment to keep the Sabbath. You also assume that Paul was on board with keeping AND preaching “keep the Sabbath” – when it is evident Paul preached the opposite of that – he preached on the freedom from the law that we have through the “gospel”, literally "the good news" (the good news of the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) (as it is most notably stated in Romans 14 and Colossians 2 – please refer to a previous post for the entire chapters if you need a refresher course)…and like you I also believe Paul practiced what he preached. == == == Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever Hebrews 13 English Standard Version (ESV) Sacrifices Pleasing to God 13 Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. 3 Remember those who are in prison, as though in prison with them, and those who are mistreated, since you also are in the body. 4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. 5 Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” 6 So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?” 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tent[a] have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp. 12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood. 13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. 14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come. 15 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. 18 Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. 19 I urge you the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you the sooner. Benediction 20 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, 21 equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. Final Greetings 22 I appeal to you, brothers,[c] bear with my word of exhortation, for I have written to you briefly. 23 You should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I shall see you if he comes soon. 24 Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those who come from Italy send you greetings. 25 Grace be with all of you. == == == Verses that show God changing his mind: Genesis 6:6-7 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” Exodus 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people. 1 Samuel 15:11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands.” And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the Lord all night. 2 Samuel 24:15-16 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough! Now relax your hand!” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 1 Chronicles 21:14-15 So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel; 70,000 men of Israel fell. And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but as he was about to destroy it, the Lord saw and was sorry over the calamity, and said to the destroying angel, “It is enough; now relax your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. Jeremiah 18:8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. Jonah 4:2 He prayed to the Lord and said, “Please Lord, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity. == == == == The true Gospel message: Galatians 1 English Standard Version (ESV) Greeting 1 Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— 2 and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. No Other Gospel 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Paul Called by God 11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.[c] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. 14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born,[d] and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to[e] me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;[f] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) 21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me. == == == ==

Hi Waxit, I apologize for any grief I may have caused you on this thread – but this is an open forum – an open discussion. When I quote someone and then further address them by name with my response – it is an attempt to be respectful and direct. Then it is obvious I am not talking about someone else nor am I talking behind someone’s back. It does not necessitate that the person is required to respond back. On an open forum setting you can choose to ignore anyone you like. I think there used to be a feature on Grease Spot that you could block someone so that you would not even see a particular person’s posts – you’ll have to check with the moderators or with someone familiar with that feature – assuming it still exists. ..but anyway – for now – feel free to ignore me – many folks do . == == == ====== Exodus 20 English Standard Version (ESV) The Ten Commandments 20 And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. 13 “You shall not murder.[c] 14 “You shall not commit adultery. 15 “You shall not steal. 16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.” 18 Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid[d] and trembled, and they stood far off 19 and said to Moses, “You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, lest we die.” 20 Moses said to the people, “Do not fear, for God has come to test you, that the fear of him may be before you, that you may not sin.” 21 The people stood far off, while Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was. Laws About Altars 22 And the Lord said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the people of Israel: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven. 23 You shall not make gods of silver to be with me, nor shall you make for yourselves gods of gold. 24 An altar of earth you shall make for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen. In every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make me an altar of stone, you shall not build it of hewn stones, for if you wield your tool on it you profane it. 26 And you shall not go up by steps to my altar, that your nakedness be not exposed on it.’ == == == == Matthew 12 English Standard Version (ESV) Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath 12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3 He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.” A Man with a Withered Hand 9 He went on from there and entered their synagogue. 10 And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. 11 He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him. == == == == Leviticus 11 English Standard Version (ESV) Clean and Unclean Animals 11 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. 3 Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 4 Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 5 And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 6 And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. 7 And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you. 9 “These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat. 10 But anything in the seas or the rivers that does not have fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you. 11 You shall regard them as detestable; you shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses. 12 Everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you. 13 “And these you shall detest among the birds;[a] they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, 14 the kite, the falcon of any kind, 15 every raven of any kind, 16 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, 18 the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, 19 the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat. 20 “All winged insects that go on all fours are detestable to you. 21 Yet among the winged insects that go on all fours you may eat those that have jointed legs above their feet, with which to hop on the ground. 22 Of them you may eat: the locust of any kind, the bald locust of any kind, the cricket of any kind, and the grasshopper of any kind. 23 But all other winged insects that have four feet are detestable to you. 24 “And by these you shall become unclean. Whoever touches their carcass shall be unclean until the evening, 25 and whoever carries any part of their carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until the evening. 26 Every animal that parts the hoof but is not cloven-footed or does not chew the cud is unclean to you. Everyone who touches them shall be unclean. 27 And all that walk on their paws, among the animals that go on all fours, are unclean to you. Whoever touches their carcass shall be unclean until the evening, 28 and he who carries their carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until the evening; they are unclean to you. 29 “And these are unclean to you among the swarming things that swarm on the ground: the mole rat, the mouse, the great lizard of any kind, 30 the gecko, the monitor lizard, the lizard, the sand lizard, and the chameleon. 31 These are unclean to you among all that swarm. Whoever touches them when they are dead shall be unclean until the evening. 32 And anything on which any of them falls when they are dead shall be unclean, whether it is an article of wood or a garment or a skin or a sack, any article that is used for any purpose. It must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the evening; then it shall be clean. 33 And if any of them falls into any earthenware vessel, all that is in it shall be unclean, and you shall break it. 34 Any food in it that could be eaten, on which water comes, shall be unclean. And all drink that could be drunk from every such vessel shall be unclean. 35 And everything on which any part of their carcass falls shall be unclean. Whether oven or stove, it shall be broken in pieces. They are unclean and shall remain unclean for you. 36 Nevertheless, a spring or a cistern holding water shall be clean, but whoever touches a carcass in them shall be unclean. 37 And if any part of their carcass falls upon any seed grain that is to be sown, it is clean, 38 but if water is put on the seed and any part of their carcass falls on it, it is unclean to you. 39 “And if any animal which you may eat dies, whoever touches its carcass shall be unclean until the evening, 40 and whoever eats of its carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until the evening. And whoever carries the carcass shall wash his clothes and be unclean until the evening. 41 “Every swarming thing that swarms on the ground is detestable; it shall not be eaten. 42 Whatever goes on its belly, and whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet, any swarming thing that swarms on the ground, you shall not eat, for they are detestable. 43 You shall not make yourselves detestable with any swarming thing that swarms, and you shall not defile yourselves with them, and become unclean through them. 44 For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. 45 For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.” 46 This is the law about beast and bird and every living creature that moves through the waters and every creature that swarms on the ground, 47 to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean and between the living creature that may be eaten and the living creature that may not be eaten. == == == == Deuteronomy 14 English Standard Version (ESV) Clean and Unclean Food 14 “You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. 2 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 3 “You shall not eat any abomination. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex,[a] the antelope, and the mountain sheep. 6 Every animal that parts the hoof and has the hoof cloven in two and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 7 Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cloven you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock badger, because they chew the cud but do not part the hoof, are unclean for you. 8 And the pig, because it parts the hoof but does not chew the cud, is unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. 9 “Of all that are in the waters you may eat these: whatever has fins and scales you may eat. 10 And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you. 11 “You may eat all clean birds. 12 But these are the ones that you shall not eat: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, 13 the kite, the falcon of any kind; 14 every raven of any kind; 15 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind; 16 the little owl and the short-eared owl, the barn owl 17 and the tawny owl, the carrion vulture and the cormorant, 18 the stork, the heron of any kind; the hoopoe and the bat. 19 And all winged insects are unclean for you; they shall not be eaten. 20 All clean winged things you may eat. 21 “You shall not eat anything that has died naturally. You may give it to the sojourner who is within your towns, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. “You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk. Tithes 22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you. 28 “At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do. == == == == Acts 10 English Standard Version (ESV) Peter and Cornelius 10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day[a] he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. 5 And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” 7 When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, 8 and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa. Peter's Vision 9 The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. 10 And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven. 17 Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon's house, stood at the gate 18 and called out to ask whether Simon who was called Peter was lodging there. 19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation,[c] for I have sent them.” 21 And Peter went down to the men and said, “I am the one you are looking for. What is the reason for your coming?” 22 And they said, “Cornelius, a centurion, an upright and God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, was directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and to hear what you have to say.” 23 So he invited them in to be his guests. The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. 24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.” 27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered. 28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.” 30 And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour,[d] and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God. 32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.” Gentiles Hear the Good News 34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), 37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles 44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days. == == == == When someone says “You have my word on it” that is another way of saying “I’m telling you the truth” or “I promise”. When someone says “What’s the word on Dave?” or “What’s the word on tonight?” they might be asking the status or update on Dave’s condition or what is the agenda for tonight. When someone says “my boss gave the word to roll out the red carpet” it is a direct order or command to follow what he/she said. Perhaps these usages and possibly more may be applicable to the Bible – as God’s word. God tells the truth, makes promises, provides status reports and updates, lists agendas and issues orders. As THE higher power – or rather The Highest Power – God certainly has the freedom and authority to change any instructions or commands he had previously issued – his sovereignty is sometimes expressed overtly as in Acts 10, God basically tells Peter there’s been a change in the rules (Leviticus 11 & Deuteronomy 14) regarding clean and unclean. God’s supreme authority can also be reflected by the actions of his agents - as in Jesus Christ and disciples gathering grain/Christ healing a man on the Sabbath.- compare Exodus 20 and Matthew 12; God’s jurisdiction is also expressed in written form by agents such as Paul – for brevity’s sake I will not re-post the chapters on Romans and Colossians which express the new rules regarding foods, holy days and the Sabbath – basically saying these are unimportant in light of the accomplishments of Christ.

Acts 17 English Standard Version (ESV) Paul and Silas in Thessalonica 17 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women. 5 But the Jews[a] were jealous, and taking some wicked men of the rabble, they formed a mob, set the city in an uproar, and attacked the house of Jason, seeking to bring them out to the crowd. 6 And when they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have turned the world upside down have come here also, 7 and Jason has received them, and they are all acting against the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.” 8 And the people and the city authorities were disturbed when they heard these things. 9 And when they had taken money as security from Jason and the rest, they let them go. Paul and Silas in Berea 10 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. 12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men. 13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was proclaimed by Paul at Berea also, they came there too, agitating and stirring up the crowds. 14 Then the brothers immediately sent Paul off on his way to the sea, but Silas and Timothy remained there. 15 Those who conducted Paul brought him as far as Athens, and after receiving a command for Silas and Timothy to come to him as soon as possible, they departed. Paul in Athens 16 Now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols. 17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18 Some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers also conversed with him. And some said, “What does this babbler wish to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. 19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20 For you bring some strange things to our ears. We wish to know therefore what these things mean.” 21 Now all the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new. Paul Addresses the Areopagus 22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ 29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” 32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 So Paul went out from their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them. == == == == == == Waxit, You said: “I dont really care about 2/4 crucified or 3/6 denials. I believe there are 4 crucified and Peter denied thrice exactly as Jesus said but if i can be proven otherwise, I dont really care However the 7th day sabbath is a major commandment so significant but it has been downgraded into insignificance by satan and his army of intellectuals. Remember Mars Hill- these were intellectuals who specialised in knowledge gathering or something interesting, while Moses went directly to the source -God and Moses was considered the meekest person by God and had a great relationship with God.” ~~ ~~ ~~ This is a two part question: 1. Can you provide chapter and verse to prove that the 7th day Sabbath is a major commandment so significant but now has been downgraded into insignificance by Satan and his army of intellectuals? 2. Can you define exactly who are Satan’s army of intellectuals? Please provide chapter and verse for this question also. Mars Hill is the Roman name for a hill in Athens, Greece, called the Hill of Ares or the Areopagus in Acts 17. The biblical significance of Mars Hill is that it’s the location of one of Paul’s most important and perhaps most challenging gospel presentations at the time of his visit to Athens during his second missionary journey. Perhaps there were many intellectual types who gathered there every day. Paul’s sermon is a classic example of a perfect gospel presentation that begins where the listeners are at and then introduces the gospel message in a logical and biblical fashion. In many ways it is a classic example of apologetics in action. Apologetics is the fine art of reasoned arguments or writings in justification of something, typically a theory or religious doctrine. Paul was no slouch when it came to debating with other intellectuals – - the sophistication…the methodical and organized thought process so evident in his epistles makes me think he himself was an intellectual heavyweight...Waxit, you make it sound like using the intellect is a bad thing. (intellect: the faculty of reasoning and understanding objectively, especially with regard to abstract or academic matters.) == == == == == == == == 2 Timothy 3 English Standard Version (ESV) Godlessness in the Last Days 3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men. All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God 10 You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11 my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom[a] you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. == == == == == == == == Waxit, you said: “The danger of being highly spohisticated and technical - 2 Timothy 3:7 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” ~~ ~~ ~~ However, it appears you have yanked II Timothy 3:7 out of context. Paul first listed a bunch of unsavory characters “lovers of self, lovers of money…without self control, etc. “ and then after mentioning all these disreputable types of people, Paul says “…”Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.” It’s seems pretty obvious that Paul is warning believers of the danger of associating with such notorious folks – “avoid such people who are always learning and never able to & etc.” It’s ridiculous to suggest that Paul was advocating anti-intellectualism.

Here's another goodie from The T & T Trunk of Wonders (aka TTTOW): TWI music challenge hat. been there done that

Where is the Bible Chapter and verse for that?

Thought I‘d post a picture of some memorabilia we found in a trunk today. From ’84 & ’86: hats, bumper sticker and tickets...yall feel free to add to this thread.