T-Bone

Rocky, that was a smart move on your part. A friend of mine, Bob – who worked with me as a security technician – worked in “crypto” when he was in the Air Force. He had some interesting stories – like the last resort fix-it trick – “the 3 foot drop” – which was to deliberately let a piece of equipment fall to the ground from a height of about 3 feet. Sometimes it actually worked…guess it re-seated some components…or shook loose the dust-bunnies or something, I dunno… Thinking about my frame of mind and decision-making back then – joining the Air Force in some technical support role…or even just going for a degree in electrical engineering would have been the smart and practical thing to do…but alas, I went to college to major in fine arts…yeah that’s how I was going to stick it to the man, by making anti-war posters. Yes – I hear you on that one, Waysider. == == == Hey – off topic I saw on the news the other day that in just a few months U.S. deaths from covid-19 pandemic surpassed the U.S. deaths from the Vietnam War in the time span of 1964 to 1975. As of April 29th 2020: 58,355 U.S. deaths from covid-19 pandemic (that's just within a few months of 2020) 1964 – 1975: 58,220 U.S. deaths from the Vietnam War …and the covid-19 war between humans and the corona-virus is still going on…

Imagine Chuck Norris as a logger - he wouldn't need an axe or tools - he would just walk up to the tree and tear it limb from limb.

(this is one of those IBFs ...invisible but funny posts...I wish you could see it in the original.)

That was a crazy time. I remember in late ‘69, the US held its first draft lottery, which gave young men a random number corresponding to their birthdays. I got a really high number from the lottery and so was never drafted. I think I have something like survivor’s guilt... whenever I meet and get to talking with a Viet Nam vet – at some point I get teary eyed and choked up. The last time that happened to me was a few years ago – on vacation in Westcliffe, Colorado. I paid the check for him and his family at this little bar & grill…To all you vets and current military, thank you for your service!

A few weeks ago I caught Empire of Dreams: The Story of the ‘Star Wars’ Trilogy (2004) on our Fire Stick. It’s a very interesting documentary on the making of the first three (actually episodes IV, V, and VI); What struck me the most (besides the wonderful imagination and talent for storytelling that George Lucas has) was the incredible determination he had to get the movie made his way. My favorites are those first three – I’m not as crazy about episodes I, II, and III – and I put the newer episodes VII, VIII, IX, and standalone stories of Rogue One and Solo up there on the same plane of satisfaction that I get out of episodes IV, V, and VI. Overall, I like the theme of redemption – which the definition says is the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil - but it can also mean the action of regaining or gaining possession of something in exchange for payment, or clearing a debt…I can see that in the story of Rogue One ( which some reviewers have rightly said is like an old WWII raid movie ) the rebels on a mission to steal the plans for the Death Star. I wasn’t going to post anything about “May the Fourth be with You” until something unexpected happened today. I noticed an adult blue jay feeding a young one outside our front window. The big blue jay going from the feeder hanging on a tree limb over to the little blue jay perched on the brick sill right outside our window. I watched this in fascination for some 40 minutes. Later today not seeing any more activity I thought I better refill the feeders – they’re getting low and we have several around our yard. As I passed by the front porch (next to the front window) to get to a feeder on the side of our home – I saw the little blue jay perched on a small stand for our battery powered candle…My “first thought” was that he looked just like one of those porgs - the little bird-like creatures that live on Luke Skywalker's island. I took it as a sign I should do something about "the Fourth" . ...below is a quick picture I got of the little bird...oh and happy Star Wars day !

Waysider’s post got me thinking about my in-residence time…pretty much the same thing…rehashing PFAL…even up to the culmination of our in-rez “higher education”, the research paper…and there was craig ranting at the podium “don’t try to reinvent the wheel – base your research paper on something from PFAL”…it doesn’t matter how many ways you slice it and dice it – there’s only so many recipes you can come up with when you’re restricted to certain ingredients…rehash indeed…I went into the way corps program because “acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness” sounded really cool to me…what a disappointment ! Rocky has an interesting thread ( here ) about wierwille challenging PFAL students to lay aside other reading material and to just read what he told you to read – because he didn’t want you to THINK ! Now imagine doing that for 2 years straight in a tightly controlled environment. Sound intellectually stimulating? I trow not. On Rocky’s thread he says you should read classic literature because it forces you to think deeply and concentrate. I’ve started reading Hamlet. But ya know, Grease Spot forces me to think deeply and concentrate – a lot more than way corps training did anyway. Twinky’s post got me thinking of the camaraderie in-residence. Steve was a very talented musician. Tuning our instruments for a rehearsal in the Chapel, he took the time to help me with my wooden ear (usually it took me forever to tune my bass and sometimes it was hit-or-miss). He was on piano and I was on bass. He’d hit a low E key and I would pluck the E string. He got me to focus on the difference in wavelengths between the two notes – and as I’m tuning to his E, I could actually hear the fluttering of my string smooth out to match his E – from wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa-wa to waaa-waaa-waaa-waaa to uhmmmmmmmmmmm. Tuning an instrument is probably no big deal to a lot of musicians – but this was a tremendous breakthrough for me.

That’s right, I remember that now…but anyway, I wanted to reboot the conversation…think I got off on the wrong foot with Waxit…I do tend to come on strong sometimes…just trying to make amends for the way I come across…Waxit, if you happen to read this, I beg your pardon.

I know what you meant by “as you were” – I simply keyed off the word “posture” in Rocky’s post, and was attempting to make light of the whole thing; when I said “one must accept the unpleasant results of something they have posted on Grease Spot.” I did not have just that particular post of George M’s in mind – my goofy posts contributed to the mess as well – and besides the fact that I'm usually not self-deprecating enough, I can see how you might think I was singling out just one poster. I did not mean to threaten your freedom of speech by praising the moderators for running a tight ship… I do happen to read the revised rules occasionally…I like rules – probably because I’m gun shy, and afraid I’m going to say something wrong or violate the rules and be confronted over it…maybe I should self-isolate for a bit.

Yeah I doubt it too, I was just being goofy. When I clicked on the link you gave – the first version of Proverbs 22:6 that I saw was NIV which read: Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it. It was the convergence of the boys’ fire incident , the NIV version of Proverbs 22:6 , and a good straight man set up that my brain convulsed in a comedic eruption…interpreting the verse rather broadly to suggest that even criminal training starts early, and sticks with you for a lifetime. Sorry – that was probably in bad taste.

they're doing time for arson?

Stayed Too Long, you’ve got me thinking again about Waxit’s explicit demand for proof (specifically one verse that shows Sabbath keeping is now insignificant) – an insistent request which he has made several times. And as several Grease Spotters have pointed out – his demand has been met several times over. So I was wondering why he hasn’t bothered to counter-argue the verses that folks have quoted to him. Waxit is very passionate and persistent – two qualities I always respect and admire – and so I have to say, by now this thread has grown on me…maybe from a human interest angle…I am always fascinated by what motivates people and why we think the way we do (I’ll say more on why I’m interested in a minute). == == == == Waxit, I think it’s safe to say we’ve come to some sort of an impasse – so I was wondering if you would be willing to change it up a little. If you set aside the differences in doctrine and belief systems – there’s something to be said for mutual respect – recognizing that we all have some valuable and important contributions to make at Grease Spot. Since we seem to be getting nowhere in this formal debate involving two sides of keeping the Sabbath ( probably because there has not been a common agreement of the rules) – I propose a short detour, and then perhaps we can get back on track with the debate and hopefully all of us mutually agreeing to some rules. How about a demilitarized zone of discussion – where using words and even scripture as weapons are not allowed…I have a personal stake in this, by the way – my sister-in-law used to be in TWI but now is involved with Seventh-Day Adventists – we do have our differences theologically, of course but I tend to humanize things when I can’t relate to something she believes or have a hard time understanding why she believes that way. We do make some headway when we both share why we feel so strongly about something – this gets more into the deep core beliefs that motivate us…I will say this – I don’t agree with her on the importance of keeping the Sabbath – but I do admire her devotion to the things that she believes are a spiritual priority. Beliefs are our mental map to make sense of and navigate through our complex world – and this mental map is somewhat intertwined with how we define ourselves – which is probably why it’s so hard to change what we believe about certain things….Well, since nobody has a perfectly accurate mental map I think it can be helpful at times to “compare notes” and even speak freely, without hiding feelings. Waxit, what I am asking is why do you feel keeping the Sabbath is so important to you? Can you say why it is so important without referring to scripture? So to be clear - I am not asking you for any scripture references nor am I asking why you think it should be important to everyone else. For something to be important to you – it must have changed your life. How? By the way, there are no wrong answers because of the way I’ve asked the questions.

old TWI postcard

that reminds me, Twinky ....in light of recent events on this thread folks should realize that once you’ve made your bed, you must lie in it. That’s an old saying that means one must accept the unpleasant results of something they have posted on Grease Spot. It's all about dealing with outcomes and consequences.

Yikes ! again with the posturing ! Posturing: behavior that is intended to impress or mislead. Posturepedic: a branch of socialization concerned with the correction or prevention of behavior that is intended to impress or mislead. (Note to critics: rather than make a snap decision on the validity of this definition – why don’t you sleep on it, and see how you feel about it tomorrow)

Thanks, Modcat5 - and thanks to all the other Mods for running a tight ship.

Yeah, I agree with you Allan...oh and that Victor Barnard dude is ex-TWI too !!! That sexual predator (Barnard) embraced the most morally depraved part of wierwille-centric theology. What was lacking in the “ministries” of wierwille and Barnard was exactly what you brought up. They were answerable to no one!!! No overseers to confront them or stand up to them! And that is what this guy thinks is just fine for “moving the word”: Sorry to burst his bubble on his plan for “moving the word” but there are reasons why the pastoral epistles (I & II Timothy and Titus) were written – they’re addressed to individuals with pastoral oversight of churches and of those who oversee other pastors – another word for “oversee” is “supervise” These pastoral epistles discuss issues of Christian living, doctrine and of course qualifications of leadership. I Timothy 3:2 says an overseer is to be above reproach.- and there are a number of attributes and concerns that Paul talks about. And in Titus 1, we read of Paul giving directions to Titus to appoint elders AS PAUL DIRECTED him to: 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach…” By the way him saying church in the home should be “self governing, self supporting and self propagating,” is a bunch of BS that he regurgitated from wierwille! It’s a joke! TWI’s fellowships out in the field never operated that way BECAUSE it was pipe dream – some unobtainable delusion that wierwille had after he co-opted the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous   So here is the big picture. The church is already set up very simply - - - there is no hierarchy. Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually…I Corinthians 12:27 NKJV And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence…Colossians 1:18 NKJV == == == == === == == == And there's another issue with what he said - Now where in the Bible does it say that ? Chapter and verse please. I’ve read - and reread several of the articles on his website, and to summarize my critique of his articles, it seems like he's also bear-hugged some of that wierwille-centric theology - - but let me be clear on this - it’s NOT so much there’s a lot of PFAL stuff on his website - - though there’s stuff in PFAL that I still think has merit - I am concerned about the way he presents himself. I doubt his claims of how much he has “researched” the stuff himself…looks like he plagiarized a lot f stuff - reworded the teachings so it looks like his ideas - not giving credit where credit is due…well, what do you know – that’s another “wonderful” trait of wierwille-centric theology. (for some reason I thought of rrobs the former pilot for wierwille - and on Grease Spot he was another great wierwille-centric theologian - had his own website where he had wierwille's books or parts of them on it) I literally meant wierwille-centric because what he says (aside of any PFAL stuff) - appears to be tinged with the same “spiritual elitism” that wierwille exhibited…pontificating like he has the authority …or rather he is the authoritative source to speak for God and then actually dictate what God will or will not do. What audacity!!!!

Great posts, WordWolf ! Gnosticism is from the Greek and means " having knowledge" and “is a collection of ancient religious ideas and systems which originated in the first century AD among early Christian and Jewish sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over orthodox teachings, traditions, and ecclesiastical authority.” from Wikipedia Gnosticism The prominence of a secret knowledge fits wierwille’s "teaching" platform to a T. His excitement and confidence in saying something like “now you can know, that you know, that you know” in PFAL comes to mind… A well-documented version of his “secret-knowledge-snow-job" is on page 23 & 24 of "The Bible Tells Me So", in the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" wierwille says: ".. .We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to us through our senses. Our reason says, 'That just cannot be,' and so we confess the negative, when all the time His spirit within us is crying out, 'Sufficiency in everything.' We have been so schooled to revere the knowledge that comes to us through our five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual where the Word of God, and not reason, has first place. Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other: the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural world and everything in it comes to the mind through or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the spiritual world are absolutely not dependent upon the senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man." == == == == Perhaps an aberrant spin-off of wierwille’s gnostic tendencies is his partiality for antinomianism ("from the Greek: ἀντί, "against" + νόμος, "law") is any view which rejects laws or legalism and argues against moral, religious or social norms (Latin: mores), or is at least considered to do so. The term has both religious and secular meanings.")... wierwille’s logic to justify doing anything – even the most unconscionable act was often expressed publicly by saying stuff along the lines of “a person can so renew their mind that something is not sin” or “the love of God thinketh no evil” or “unto the pure all things are pure.”...He is tipping his hand here - alluding to his attitude about sexually molesting women (which translates to - it was no big deal to him so victims should just get over it)...truly, the greatest “secret knowledge” in way-world was how morally depraved he was...These nifty little phrases - along with teachings like The Christian Family & Sex class - helped lay the groundwork to spring his trap on unsuspecting women. perhaps the delusion of having a superior knowledge afforded wierwille the freedom to do whatever he wanted to do...plagiarizing like it was going out of style...drugging and sexually molesting women... ...sadly the truth of the matter is that - depending on how much followers bought into wierwille’s delusion, it was almost like handing him a blank check where he could decide how much to exploit them.

Thanks for the link to the article - some interesting stuff - I'll have to read it a few more times - - one short paragraph grabbed my attention "Lee McIntyre takes a similarly moralistic tone in his 2015 book Respecting Truth: Willful Ignorance in the Internet Age: “The real enemy of truth is not ignorance, doubt, or even disbelief,” he writes. “It is false knowledge.” like I said - interesting stuff...thanks Rocky

A cult leader - wearing a baseball cap with a battery-powered blacklight bulb on top - walks into a bar and says “I am the light of the world”. Coincidentally Jesus Christ walks into the bar about the same time and says “Beware if the light you have is darkness.”

When someone says " I’m going to clean your clock” it usually means they are threatening someone with physical harm. I wonder if a cosmetic surgeon could say “I’m going to adjust your clock” – meaning they will modify the neck, head or body to enhance the patient’s appearance. Feel free to add your own or one that you’ve heard

Good one, Waysider What did the psychologist say to the light bulb in the ceiling fixture? You’re already screwed up.

Yes Twinky, I hear you loud and clear…as my manner is, I do tend to preach to the choir…and really, I say this stuff cuz I need to hear it…anyway I kinda need a breather here,,,get my second...third and fourth wind on this thread you got me thinking though…maybe I did have in mind some fuzzy goofy idea of what I thought was gong on here – the unstoppable force of freedom of thought meeting an immovable dogmatic mindset – but I don’t think that’s how people actually relate to one another. As your post implies – people change. That got me to thinking there’s perhaps a certain “fluidity” to our makeup… what if there’s some force or inertia that drives us to explore and maybe even embrace certain ideas? Is that what philosophy, theology, logic, and faith are about? Just wondering…inquiring minds gots ta know…

Twinky, maybe it’s because of how much we (as Grease Spotters – mostly ex-TWI folks) have healed, grown, and basically wised up…and have put some distance (in time, location, a change in attitudes and viewpoints) from TWI – we may forget how appealing a cult’s unique system of beliefs and practices can be. Besides love-bombing, cults are attractive because they promote an illusion of comfort and they satisfy the human desire for absolute answers*. That is often the allure of a cult. It could be the tantalizing tease of one-on-one witnessing and asking a new person you had brought to Twig “how would you like to be able to separate truth from error?” or “How would you like to have more harmony in the home? We’re running a class soon that enables you to do that. Would you like to sign up?” On a bigger scale, TWI’s outreach programs have the same bait-and-switch strategy – advertise goods which are an apparent bargain but substituting inferior or more expensive goods. If you complain or whine about the class not living up to its great claims – you’re told the “alleged” inferiority of the product is due to your lack of believing – or maybe a leader says you should take the PFAL class a few more times and it will "gel for you"…or if you express some dissatisfaction of things not working in life the way you expected them to, a leader might try to convince you to sink more money into other classes or programs that will build your believing,,,develop your spiritual potential...whatever...I think this was like a circle of strife for me – a never ending personal struggle of me trying to make the claims come true … trying to get my believing in sync with what TWI said was available for me to believe for – it was a frustrating hamster wheel – going through the motions but getting nowhere. cults promote an illusion of comfort: “A comfort zone is a psychological state in which things feel familiar to a person and they are at ease and (perceive they are) in control of their environment, experiencing low levels of anxiety and stress.” from Wikipedia comfort zone Cults are good at getting followers to believe they have the best handle on whatever happens in life – as long as they buy into whatever the leader says they should be thinking, saying or doing – everything will be okay. Earlier on this thread, Waxit said: “ We all know the corona virus strted out of Wuhan wet market. This current pandemic has been the direct result of eating cuncleat meats that goes against the commanadments of God. The bat is capable of housing upto 130 different viruses and it's eaten as a delicacy in China” . (link to Waxit's post) I happen to think that’s dogmatic overkill – but I guess that might be comforting to some folks who think that controlling the environment is best accomplished by strictly obeying the commandments of God. cults claim they have the absolute answers: A know-it-all is a person who acts as though he or she knows everything and who dismisses the opinions, comments, or suggestions of others. Cults fine tune that. Cults want you to think that if you stick with them and their dogma you’ll know everything that is absolutely essential to know…what about absolute truth? “Absolute truth is something that is true at all times and in all places. It is something that is always true no matter what the circumstances. It is a fact that cannot be changed. For example, there are no round squares There are also no square circles.” (Wikipedia absolute truth) As far as absolute truth goes – I’m not interested in a philosophical discussion of what is absolute truth. But I know this much, a cult’s source of authority is whatever they say is the “absolute truth” –in other words, their dogma. == == == == It would behoove us Grease Spotters to continue to develop more empathy and patience – in the spirit of the Grease Spot way . I think the “outreach” program here is NOT to increase Grease Spot membership or get folks to absorb or adopt a certain mindset, or toe the line…no, Grease Spot’s mission is simply to tell the other side of the story of one particular cult – The Way International. A powerful branch of Grease Spot’s “outreach” program is to encourage folks to think for themselves – no matter what group or groups or church folks may belong to now , or even if they don’t belong to any group or church at all. * What to Know about the psychology of cults

Thanks WordWolf, good posts !

It seems that Waxit is unusually reluctant to share where he got his information from - if Grease Spotters will remember we went through this before on this thread with Waxit being coy about his supposed clincher - the book “God’s Plan for Mankind” that would settle the whole matter about the Sabbath . Needless to say, we should all remember to be upfront about sources that are so integral to our thesis, thread, argument, or whatever…So I did some online searching – and did not find the article that Waxit used here - but I did find an article using the same logical fallacy of "remembering" - I found this on the Western Region Church of God website (- not sure if they're affiliated with the same Church of God or website where I found the book "God's Plan for Manking"): “Furthermore we read in Exodus 20:8, when the Commandments were codified and etched into two tablets of stone by God's finger, "REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy". If you remember anything, you have to recall something that has already existed. Obviously the Sabbath had existed and been practiced from the beginning of God's Creation. They had the greatest instructor in the universe, God Himself, to show them how to do so. This knowledge was passed down from generation to generation.” from Western Region Church of God – did Noah keep the Sabbath? “REMEMBER the Sabbath day, to keep it holy". If you remember anything, you have to recall something that has already existed.” This is a logical fallacy – misusing a word like “remember” that has more than one meaning. “Remember” can mean to have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something that one has seen, known, or experienced in the past) – but it can also mean to do something that one has undertaken to do or that is necessary or advisable - like saying “don’t forget to mail those letters”. I used the word “remember” both ways in the start of this post: “…if Grease Spotters will remember we went through this before on this thread with Waxit being coy about his clincher “God’s Plan for Mankind” that would settle the whole matter about the Sabbath . Needless to say, we should all remember to be upfront about sources that are so integral to our thesis, thread, argument, or whatever” …My first usage of “remember” is to bring to mind something we’ve seen before on this thread. My second usage of “remember” is a prompt to think about honesty when sharing material that is absolutely essential to your argument. Saying “Obviously the Sabbath had existed and been practiced from the beginning of God’s creation” is a logical fallacy; simply stating something as obvious which is not a widely agreed or a self-evident fact is an attempt to bring something in as a premise which really shouldn't be. It seems like Waxit's sources have a squirrely-way of reading their bias into scripture - and it seems Waxit has a knack for that too