T-Bone

Could also be near the end of his life he was running out of energy to keep up the man of god persona and all his delusional hopes were falling apart and secret sins had metastasized

Oh yeah sorry…I forget he moves at a different pace…I blew through Undertow - couldn’t put it down! Like binge watching The West Wing - I don’t watch the “previously on…” in between each episode.

Did you get to the part in Undertow that relates how DETERMINED wierwille was in wanting the research Dept. Mistranslate the Greek text? Had nothing to do with it being a figure of speech!

who made you the spiritual score keeper? Your assumptions so those are your problems I do not presume to answer for God I have no answers - and your theories are too bat-$hit crazy for my taste It seems to me Escaping the condescending know-it-all mindset is your biggest challenge

I don’t recall you posting evidence on the other threads. That is speculation on your part. I prefer methods that are grounded - disciplines with academic standards, like textual criticism and historical research on the canon of Scripture. It sounds like you’re talking about willpower…most of my problems are due to laziness or lack of self-control. This all seems like a lot of speculation and leads to unwarranted extrapolation.

Welcome to Grease Spot, MarieP - that is a very revealing post. After I left TWI I began to realize that I had gotten into the habit of relating to others in a very artificial way - and it was insulating me from any meaningful exchanges. I’d use ministry jargon and push TWI’s agenda and figured if anyone didn’t like it then that was too bad for them. I lost a lot of friends when I left - but I’m learning to be myself , and allow my wife and kids the freedom to be themselves. Not a part of someone else’s exploitative agenda. I can still be the world’s biggest a$$-hole sometimes - but as a family we’re a forgiving bunch - and it no longer revolves around the ministry.

Awe-inspiring production Twinky! Amazing -what beautiful harmonies- and such clarity- perfection… I’ve never heard of that song before…the words are so healing- thanks for sharing.

We all have biases…the Socratic method helps to sort out and identify and isolate the valid points from the nonsense… sorry if I come off as if I’m always reluctant to hear you out - but since you brought up the NT Canon and free will threads - I must say your lack of communication skills and supportive evidence frustrate me to the point I feel compelled to frequently pester you for clarification and evidence. It’s difficult to carry on a discussion when the topic is muddy and lacks concrete evidence to argue over. and honestly I don’t think my communication skills are much better than yours - which means you’ll have to work twice as hard when talking to me

Raf, for the record I tentatively think I’m right only on a thing or two …and I’m not sure what they are. You said: Religion can employ reason, and it often does. But there comes a point when reason ceases to agree with what a religion is peddling. Where it outright rejects it. "Maybe there were six denials instead of three." No. That makes no sense. They all said three. "Maybe there was more than one cursed fig tree." No, that's just excuse-making to account for the discrepancy in the accounts. End of quote I wonder if the twisted bull-$hit PEDDLED by a pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille has tainted your viewpoint. I say that because your post mixes the natural sense of scripture with the nonsense of wierwille ideology. I will not soften the brutal truth of the gospel message - nor will I argue for its REASON. I got into that on another thread - My post on A Loving Father? So I’m not going to bore anyone to tears or Zs again rehashing the why of the message, the need for sacrifice and redemption - and there’s probably some confirmation bias on my part because the gospel message makes sense to me - per the narrative of the Bible and regardless of the nonsense that wierwille peddled which in my opinion obfuscated the simple message of the Bible…”it makes sense” can be a problematic debate if there’s not a reference point or standard we can agree upon for what makes something intelligible, justified or have meaning…I know I’m probably muddying up this discussion - I think you Raf are better at articulating and citing nuances - so feel free to tell me what I’m trying to say - just kidding - the compliment is no joke - just expressing frustration with my lack of communication skills. And I don’t mean to come off as self-righteous or put myself above anyone- I’m just as flawed as anyone else - so count me in your assessment with the "lawless” the "darkness", the “ignorant" and "hard-hearted” , “Blinded” , the "cowardly, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars - I am a great a$$-hole in my own right - and if there is a judgement throne that I must appear before - I plan on being a blubbering idiot on my knees throwing myself at the mercy of the judge - and who (besides the Lord) knows how that fiasco will turn out? I never said or implied that anyone lacks the capacity to understand what I’m talking about. Maybe you and I have different ideas about how a higher power would reveal their personhood…it would seem to me that it’s contradictory or counterproductive for the Creator to require His creation have a nebulous thing called “spirit” to know about Him unless everyone already had it - otherwise it’s sort of like the what came first the chicken or the egg conundrum. to elaborate on my comments of I Cor.2 in my earlier post - there is probably a deeper idea of Christian being enlightened further - as scripture like Ephesians 1: 17 & ff seem to suggest - but to flat out say the “natural man” can’t accept the gospel message goes against Romans 10 - faith comes by hearing the Word of God. 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1 ~ ~ ~ ~ 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. Romans 2 It seems silly to think Paul was terrified of a debate over the means and method of redemption since he put all his cards on the table with the simple gospel message. He unapologetically puts the message out there - theologically…biblically there are no issues to resolve. As a revealed religion the basic tenets of Christianity come with the territory of the Bible. If this is another thinly disguised point / counterpoint religion versus atheism episode - well sorry I messed up once again. Just a thought - respectfully, maybe you are inadvertently redirecting the discussion to find fault in the message - that it is somehow flawed. That’s entirely possible. But if it is a revealed religion that posits we are ALL flawed - then it comes down to me either accepting or rejecting that religion’s assessment of my status. If the message is flawed because it’s not God-inspired or simply there is no God - then those are topics for another discussion. I believe - and I could be wrong - the wisdom of the world is foolish when it lacks the sense to correlate things like the wonders of the physical world or the amazing technology and industry of humankind as a reflection of the Creator. ~ ~ ~ ~ FYI in the Matrix red & blue pill analogy - the main character Neo is offered the CHOICE between a red pill and a blue pill by rebel leader Morpheus. The RED pill will enable Neo to learn a potentially unsettling or life-changing truth...I think the red and blue pills was just a symbolic tool to show it all revolves around one’s CHOICE, a simple willful act of accepting or rejecting…same with the vaccine as a symbol of choice. That CHOICE stimulates immunity - are we talking confirmation bias ? Maybe so…also it’s possible a person’s ego, pride or some other unidentified factor may inoculate them against accepting the gospel message.

Hey Skyrider, check out “systematizing” used in Ephesians 4:14 in alternate versions A Faithful Version So that we no longer be children, tossed and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men in cunning craftiness, with a view to the systematizing of the error; Darby Bible Translation in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error; ~ ~ ~ ~ In my opinion Paul could very well have been describing harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cult-leaders in their systematizing of deception and control. And for all you geeky Greek fans here’s some more tech news: Interlinear of Ephesians 4:14 Lexicon of Ephesians 4:14

Right. Christianity is the only religion I’m somewhat familiar with. Narrow mindedness is probably relative - and I tend to be more inclusive compared to say a fundamentalist who is typically exclusive. Labels can be helpful - some specificity is needed otherwise we could be talking about anything, everything or nothing - then it’s meaningless. I went with Raf’s opening post mention of I Corinthians 2:14 - and that’s why I quoted the whole chapter, as an example of a revealed religion versus the natural religion of reason that Paine promoted. Don’t think I was clear enough in my post to show that’s what I think Paul was arguing for - a revealed religion versus a natural religion - “the wisdom of this world “…but that’s just my take on it - I could be wrong. I wasn’t meaning to be argumentative - just putting my goofball ideas in the mix to posit the thought that faith and religion doesn’t always mean that reason goes out the window - that’s just my opinion of course.

I’ll pick up with comments about Paine’s The Age of Reason - thanks for the link, Rocky. “Paine advocates reason in the place of revelation, leading him to reject miracles and to view the Bible as an ordinary piece of literature, rather than a divinely-inspired text. In The Age of Reason, he promotes natural religion and argues for the existence of a creator god.” Christianity is considered a revealed religion - in other words it’s based on the revelation by God to humankind - the ideas would not have been arrived at by natural reason alone…by definition the metaphysical is beyond the 5 senses if there is anything beyond what we can sense , we need another way to perceive it. what about the “other side” ? Are there “metaphysical beings” who move between “worlds” ? Was there an initiative to reveal some stuff about the unseen realm? Maybe the attraction of religion is the hope of connecting to the “otherness”. as I Corinthians 2 explains: 1And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. a 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. 6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” the things God has prepared for those who love him— 10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. I Corinthians 2 ~ ~ ~ ~ *rather than starting off with Internet definitions for things already touched upon - I’ve listed them after my comments. ~ ~ ~ ~ portraying religion as a vaccine to fight reason is to cast them as enemies rather than allies. I understand Christianity to be a religion where faith and reason are complementary. II Corinthians 5:7 says we walk by faith and not by sight. It does NOT say we walk by faith and not by reason. The combination of faith and reason is also implied in Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Rocky brought up synchronicity - where we look for meaning. But meaning is intangible and relative and it’s possible to misinterpret a supposedly correlation of events…but I think meaning is something we seek. Why is it difficult to see the correlation? Is it because something inside us is broken? I believe we were created as social beings. Something got really messed up in the fall of humankind in Genesis. We got separated from something essential - being connected with God and each other…why God didn’t fix things immediately is not known. Some scholars with expertise in the biblical languages and cultures understand the death associated with the first sin of humankind to be twofold in its impact - a figurative death of the spirit - separation from God, and long term there were physical consequences too. In I Corinthians 2 Paul gets into God revealing Himself through the life of Jesus Christ. This is in contrast to worldly wisdom - a wisdom that doesn’t acknowledge God. I believe verses 4 & 5 speak of the unique time of the apostolic period - Paul and the other apostles had authentication by the power of God. In my opinion wierwille was a phony teaching people how to fake speaking in tongues to insinuate himself as having the same apostolic status as Paul. I don’t think this chapter promotes a magic decoder ring. That would be something external. Instead it revolves around the internal “faith” , “accept”. Paul is not making a personal attack on anyone in particular but rather is challenging the position of those who do not accept the revelation of God. The contrast between natural and spirit is a common motif of Paul - and more so than believer or unbeliever here - - it often highlights the battle within ourselves like in Romans 8 The latter part of chapter 2 is how we reconnect in a relationship with him. I think my gullibility associated with PFAL and the Advanced Class is perhaps a failure on my part - falling for the pseudo-intellectualism of wierwille instead of seeking a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - wierwille’s con was “the Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Initially it is the Bible - the Word of God that revitalizes our spirit - and there’s also something self-authenticating about Scripture - remember the words of Jesus Christ in John 7:17 “Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.” I believe there’s something to this verse that might have to do with how our intuition and God may work together – in that metaphysical truth is self-authenticating through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit – perhaps that is also implied in passages like John 16:13 and I John 2:27 . So no magic decoder ring - more like an ongoing relationship ~ ~ ~ ~ *internet definitions for reference points Social intelligence is the capacity to know oneself and to know others. Social intelligence is learned and develops from experience with people and learning from success and failures in social settings. Social intelligence is the ability to understand your own and others actions. Gullibility is a failure of social intelligence in which a person is easily tricked or manipulated into an ill-advised course of action. Discern: to recognize or identify as separate and distinct; discriminate. discern right from wrong; to come to know or recognize mentally. unable to discern his motives; to perceive by the sight or some other sense or by the intellect; see, recognize, or apprehend: They discerned a sail on the horizon. to have understanding : have the power of comprehension. : to achieve a grasp of the nature, significance, or explanation of something; to believe or infer something to be the case. ad hominem argument is one that is directed against the opposing person rather than the position they’re maintaining. It can be a clear direct attack against their character or more subtly cast doubt on their personal motives. An ad hominem argument is often used so that one can undermine their opposition’s case without having to directly confront and dispute it. Normally facts are ignored in favor of appealing to emotions and prejudices. Superstition: a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief. Synchronicity describes circumstances that appear meaningfully related yet lack a causal connection and refers to one's subjective experience that coincidences between events in one's mind and the outside world may be causally unrelated to each other yet have some other unknown connection…

Welcome to Grease Spot, Joyful Soul! Your post brings up the difficulty in sorting out the variety of experiences in a duplicitous organization like The Way International. Jesus Christ warned us about ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing Matthew 7 and Peter warned us about false teachers arising within the church II Peter 2 A couple of takeaways from Matthew and Peter: we are to discern wolves and false teachers by their fruit (the product of their labor) and by their deviation and perversion from sound doctrine and practice. Since you never went WOW or corps you probably only got to witness the ‘lighter side’ of TWI. It’s in the programs that one experiences TWI’s dark underbelly of indoctrination, manipulation, exploitation and abuse. I think what’s complicated in wading through it all to figure out what’s wrong is the simple fact that it’s supposedly based on something as innocuous as the Bible. It’s a common question here on Grease Spot - “did you throw out the baby with the bath water?” Of course everyone has an opinion on what’s the baby and what’s the bath water. I will say that PFAL did whet my appetite to enjoy hobbies like systematic and biblical theology and philosophy of religion. I’ve been WOW, corps and 12 years in TWI - but it took the ministry wide crisis in 1986 to get me to do some soul searching, acknowledge some red flags I ignored and then step back and see that TWI made some major divergence from the Bible in doctrine and practice. What’s strange to consider that when it comes to harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian cults it’s more about their methods than their seemingly innocent teachings.

On the other hand - many of your theories are untenable - and you’re mischaracterizing the Socratic method as a bias by others…you’ve had MANY opportunities to provide evidence to support your suppositions - but you have a PATTERN of dodging and redirecting the discussion - if you have something that is truly of merit it should be able to stand up to the toughest close scrutiny… this is such a disappointment- when shown you are wrong or negligent in providing evidence for your theory - you whine and complain people are biased - and you seem to shrink from ever admitting you’re wrong…or just say you’ve got the info somewhere…maybe that’s your way of admitting you’re ill-prepared - and that’s okay - but don’t criticize others for inadvertently proving you are merely offering up some half-baked bull-$hit - I want that bull-$hit fully cooked! The percentage of your happiness is irrelevant to validation

You’re still conflating ideas. Many legal systems and laws have their origin in the Mosaic law. but the motif in Job 1 & 2 resembles a council meeting of dignitaries - with Yahweh presiding over the meeting. It fails to read as a courtroom scene with God as judge and Satan as prosecutor - because it’s missing some key elements of a court case - such as the existence of a legal duty that the defendant owed to the plaintiff, the defendant's breach of that duty, the plaintiff's sufferance of an injury, proof that the defendant's breach caused the injury (typically defined through proximate cause).

It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. 2 x 2 = 4 45.62 x 2 = maybe something a little stronger than 90 Where’s one of those mathletes of the spirit when you need one?

I believe we have an innate desire to make sense of the world - and it's really a lifelong endeavor - a lot of work, ups and downs, learning curves, etc. The Way International appealed to me because it seemed to be a shortcut - to my young and naive mind they seemed to have definitive answers for everything…it lasts for a little while - until repeated attempts to apply the things they taught failed. Reality is a hell of an acid test.

I usually lock horns with Mike - I agree with what you said about him

With wierwille it may have been a perfect storm of some unpredictable factors. wierwille tapped into the zeitgeist of youthful counterculture of the 60s and 70s, with new dynamic subcultures that celebrated experimentation and the rise of alternative lifestyles. He was an opportunist besides being a flagrant plagiarist and liked to steal from the fruit of other people’s hard work. He even set his sights on the evangelical Christian movement of “Jesus people” or “Jesus freaks” - there have been some discussions on Grease Spot about wierwille’s attempts to hijack the Jesus movement in 1968 & 69 - note a few pertinent links: Jim Doop the Way West and VPW brief timeline of wierwille’s career about Doop and Heefner Jimmy Doop's post Sept. 8 2005 about The Way West and wierwille wanting to control the money

This seems to be circular reasoning: Mike says: Get tiny glimpses of the spiritual side. These tiny glimpses would have to come from the scriptures and fit with the scriptures. But the ‘glimpses’ you describe are embellished…sometimes distorted – you see God as a judge in a courtroom – and I see God as sovereign Lord over satellite ‘nations’ – a divine council. How do you know it’s not you reading into the scriptures? So far, that’s what you’ve been doing on this thread. For instance, you keep harping on Job 1 & 2 as depicting a modern-day legal courtroom scene with God as judge and the devil as prosecutor – and you seem to think that is an accurate glimpse into the spiritual realm. I’ve pointed it out to you several times – here and on other threads – the culturalism in Job, depicts a divine council ( a common concept in many ancient cultures) – like the account in I Kings 22 that I shared earlier. The idea is there’s all these deities having a supernatural meeting / conference. The ancient Hebrews adapted that to their religion – so Yahweh is always depicted as the head deity…most high God…the most powerful God over all other divine beings. How literal are we supposed to take descriptions of the supernatural? His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in color to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude…Daniel 10:6 There’s a lot of symbolism going on there. What did that stuff represent to the people of that culture when this was written? Same goes for Job 1 & 2 and I Kings 22… The function of allegory in literature is to convey a complex idea through an in-depth metaphorical narrative. Famous allegories include Dante 's Divine Comedy, George Orwell's Animal Farm, and John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress. All of these works use allegorical techniques to convey different messages to the ones literally written on the page. From What Is the Function of Allegory in Literature? (with pictures) (languagehumanities.org) So what’s the main idea in Job 1 & 2 and I Kings 22? Yahweh is TOP GOD – He calls the shots! I think that's wishful thinking on your part...hiding your head in the sand to ignore how bad things are in the real world. The Scriptures – like the ones I’ve already mentioned: Romans 8 NIV , 1 Peter 5 NIV and Hebrews 11 NIV – they speak of the mess we’re in – and continue to have – and will even get worse - - due to the evil activity of both humans and demons – and not just for the secular world – but also in the church – God never promised us a trouble free life – there’s trouble without, trouble within (our own sinful nature) – persecution, and on the news we hear more and more about bat-$hit crazy evil people committing mass-shootings, terrorist acts, vehicles and knives used as weapons…and wacko religious cult-leaders with their cult following – starting up new cults, infiltrating churches and politics (Christian Nationalism for instance) - this is all evident in passages like 2 Timothy 2 , Matthew 24 NIV , 2 Peter 2 NIV , 2 Corinthians 4 NIV , Romans 1 NIV , 1 Thessalonians 3 NIV , 1 Thessalonians 5 NIV , 2 Thessalonians 2 NIV . The thing is Mike, it seems to me you get hung up in imaginary patterns – the scant scripture and weird theories that you’ve tried to correlate on this thread, may seem TO YOU to have some regular, intelligible, repeatable form – but – your audience isn’t buying it. Below are a few hyperlinks on deciphering patterns and codes – maybe this will help you retool: How to Decipher a Secret Code: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow Coding Decoding Reasoning: Know Key Concept, Solved Examples & Tips (testbook.com) Decrypt a Message - Cipher Identifier - Online Code Recognizer (dcode.fr) BUT bear in mind the above is about interpreting patterns…not to be confused with interpreting Scripture or translating a language. Different skill sets involved - linguistics, cultural familiarity for example. In my opinion interpreting / translating the sacred texts of The Bible to a large extent is understanding what the message meant to the original audience – and only after that can we begin to abstract relevant meaning. The subject of hidden Bible codes is beyond the scope of this post. Oy vey – don’t get me started. the fact that YOU CANNOT articulate what they are leads me to believe YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT...you refer to some pattern that only you can see and fail to point out to others - try as you may - you are persistent - I'll give you that

maybe that's where you went wrong...instead of coming here to have your acid tested, you could have brought a sample to the DEA and have their lab do a thorough analysis - my amateur guess is that whatever it is you're tripping on has got to have some potent $hit in that LSD. that's just my opinion though - I could be wrong.

That may be how YOU see it but that doesn’t make it so. I believe the laws of physics were created by God. Science studies what can be observed and measured. The metaphysical realm by definition is beyond the five senses - thus beyond science. Metaphysics is usually tackled by philosophy, theology, and such - disciplines that are NOT hard science. The Bible is malleable - and so people…even believe it or not - fake doctors and cult-leaders can twist it around to say anything they want.

Mike has a tendency to talk out of both sides of his mouth…it reminds me of wierwille’s contradictory ideas. He’d talk about God’s ineffable greatness on one hand but then he’d put God in a box with what He can and cannot do.

Still - you assume God has rules - just saying your premises are so categorically unbiblical and untenable any reasonable person would reject them right off the bat! your argument is weak everywhere because it has no strength of support anywhere! Your “theories” of limitations about God or the devil are asinine - since you don’t know what you’re talking about and ignore scripture presented to debunk your goofy ideas - like earlier I Peter 5:8 …please review previous posts before you go spinning up more bull-$hit.

Excellent point, So-crates!!!!! That’s where wierwille’s stipulations come in handy! Didn’t receive what you were believing for? Maybe it wasn’t available. Maybe you weren’t really believing – you just had mental assent. I know - you haven’t been abundantly sharing. You ninny, you were probably out of fellowship.