T-Bone

Sorry for any confusion – I was trying to make a joke; for clarification I was just playing off the idea that splinter groups reuse and/or regurgitate many of wierwille’s teachings - in other words recycled way-doctrine.

ya know...recycling way ministry books means something else to TWI-Splinter groups

wierwille and others were/are masters at cultivating self-doubt in followers – and the young and naïve are especially susceptible since they lack much in the way of life-lesson experiences and usually have undeveloped critical thinking skills. We were taught the first step in the road downhill is to doubt or question “The Word”. This was the start of the great subterfuge to attack any sense of self-confidence or autonomy we may have had – subliminally what is communicated is that you do not question or doubt authority…We were led to believe TWI’s classes were all we needed to correctly understand or “rightly-divide” the Bible and unleash the power of God in our lives. “Take the class and all your questions will be answered”…Thus the self-doubt problem – that they themselves fostered – was supposedly resolved by a follower’s false-confidence in their “product” and services. We were never encouraged to think for ourselves - just ask your leadership. If you go in the way corps what is expected of you is blind – and I might add mindless - obedience to your leadership. When I began thinking about leaving TWI in ’86 – after the convergence of personal experiences and a major ministry meltdown, I had to look deeper into the layers of intellectual-hobbling (self-doubt) that are part of the TWI-mindset. Some of it went along similar lines of what Rubina mentioned - confronting the fear of forsaking God and the Word or being influenced by devil spirits.. In my mind it was almost like a call-and-response format – brave first attempts to "dialog" with myself – self-examination or something…do I love God and His Word? Yes – but now I was beginning to wonder if wierwille and/or Craig handled The Word of God deceitfully.... Am I possessed or being influenced by devil spirits? No – I recalled several bad acid trips before I was in TWI and I still remember what it was like to be under the influence of something that was not a part of me (I figured being affected by one of the most powerful mind-altering hallucinogens might be a similar experience to being possessed or influenced by devil spirits ). And by the way, some of those doubts and questions - were not about myself or about my thinking process, they were challenges to the authority of wierwille and Craig...They were coming to the surface – some of which were buried very deep for a very long time – deep within myself – buried…suppressed…held at bay by the intellectual-hobbling…mind control…brainwashing of The Way International. To any TWI-followers who feel confused, trapped or frustrated - what I’m about to say may seem discouraging at first, but it’s intended to point you in the right direction. There’s really nothing here at Grease Spot - or anywhere else for that matter - that will force your eyes open and make you see the light…but I won’t leave you without hope – I intend to point you in the right direction – look within yourself. Can you identify the self-doubt promoted by TWI that keeps you in line? Do you know what intellectual-hobbling is? Hobbling is to tie or strap together (the legs of a horse or other animal) to prevent it from straying. The ONLY person who can cut you loose from that is YOU – since you’re the only one inside your own head, only YOU can do it. The decision is YOURS.

thanks for your relies Penguin 2 and Skyrider...and I'll do some reading of that Georgio J thread

good questions, Skyrider – and it always makes me wonder about the clergy, corps, staff and “old timers” that still stuck around after Geer’s paper was read – did any of them let ambitious desires cloud their judgement to make sense of the situation or make sensible decisions? In other words, was it more of a “hey, there’s a lot of gaps to fill, maybe now it’s my time to shine” rather than asking “what is so bad that a lot of clergy and corps are leaving?” And speaking of the 2nd and 3rd generation of way-believers…I sometimes wonder about those who have never visited Grease Spot. What does the “old guard” tell them about the massive exits? Or is it something that doesn’t come up that much? Maybe that’s been addressed on some other threads before - if so point me in the right direction.

When I was WOW in mid-70s in D.C., David T. was the limb-coordinator / area coordinator (not sure of his responsibility back then - my memory is bad and Tonto wasn't sure either - also I think Maryland was often included in some functions - so maybe he was over more than I remember) - anyway - I didn't have a chance to interact with David much - but I remember two things about him: he always hit me as being mellow...a laid-back dude (which was a relief from feeling like we were being pushed all the time); and the other thing was something he said in a meeting - don't even remember what it was in reference to - but he said "it all comes out in the wash"....I liked that...wisdom from a mellow dude...have patience and things will work out.

Vern, start out with baby steps - free burgers and popcorn for all ! The decision is yours.

that's just so sad on two counts: that Bob S's kids are in TWI and they're up to the 49th way corps - the institution of social controls lives on - it’s like ...the thing that couldn’t die

Thanks Twinky and Skyrider !

Interesting observation…back in my day within the ministry’s caste system - I always thought of TWI-ordained clergy as the spiritual mainstays and heavyweights of the ministry – I was never ordained myself, btw…now it’s kind of appalling and dismal to hear you talk of TWI-clergy at HQ as nothing more than a slave-labor force…I mean, it makes sense what you said. I also imagine there is probably a lot of pressure to lead by example the rest of the workforce (non-clergy) at HQ. A little off-topic – but sort of related…and sorry if I’m mischaracterizing any clergy…I do believe there are certain women and men who have a calling…gifts…and that they may not necessarily have a “Reverend” in front of their name…I also knew of some very ambitious people – corporate types, who play the game, who like to make sure others toe the line – who craved status and recognition…so - - I tend to think TWI had nothing in place ordination-wise to weed out the wannabes from the truly gifted – but I’m interested in what you or other folks know or think…back to your main point – whether someone is gifted or not - HQ has got to be the exploitation capital of The Way International.

Thanks Rubina, that stuff about TWI's stagnation, shrinkage and Vern's "impossible position of reforming a system that was broke from the very beginning" makes sense - good post! The word figurehead again comes to mind…“In politics, a figurehead is a person who de jure (in name or by law) appears to hold an important and often supremely powerful title or office, yet de facto (in reality) exercises little to no actual power. This usually means that they are head of state, but not head of government. The metaphor derives from the carved figurehead at the prow of a sailing ship…The word can also have more sinister overtones, and refer to a powerful leader, who should be exercising full authority, who is actually being controlled by a more powerful figure behind the throne.” (from Wikipedia - figurehead ) Another word for figurehead is frontman - a person who represents an organization and works to make its image more appealing to the public. I left ages ago so I’m so out of touch with what’s going on in TWI and what the predominant mood is of most folks right now – the only thing I can possibly relate it to is the general air of malaise after Chris G’s passing-of-a-patriarch-$hit-hitting-the-fan back in ’86 – which I think may have been the first major glitch in an already faulty system. A good frontman is always important to pacifying any turmoil in an exploitative cult – as long as the organization itself is not called into question – just keep selling the idea that “The Way is a unique venture in the study and practical application of the Bible. We are dedicated to setting before people the astonishing accuracy and practicality of God’s Word and letting people decide for themselves whether or not to believe it or use it.” ( from TWI's website ) The Way International has always been a tyranny of deceptive and manipulative hypocrites. Perhaps one of the biggest lies I bought into when I first joined was the idea that I could take full control of my life through things like the power of believing and mastering PFAL. There is very little accuracy found in TWI’s scripture twisting and stuff like magical thinking or believing is about as practical as a hamster wheel for a means of transportation. That added up to years of frustration for me. I understood from PFAL that I should have all this power but somehow didn’t manifest it. I think that frustration – that lack of such a supposedly powerful means of control - is what kept me suckered me in for so long – don't know if it was along the lines of a gambler's fallacy - I figured sooner or later it would all click - I'd break my losing streak and hit the jackpot of what PFAL promised. I always thought wierwille and other top leadership had it so together - that's why I followed them - I felt they had what I lacked. …now stay with me on this… I found this article on why people follow tyrants – and I think it relates not only to cult leaders – but why people go along with the tyranny of deceptive and manipulative organizations too…I don’t think Vern looks at Grease Spot…I don’t know maybe he peeks at it occasionally…so anyway – this is for the new figurehead…frontman of TWI…and to all the sales reps who sell snake oil: "When people feel a lack of control in their own lives, they turn to fantasy figures or escapist outlets to regain a sense of power and ego strength. Sometimes they turn to religion and its all-powerful idealized figures, but more often, they turn to figureheads in their lives, be it celebrities, idols, and people who possess charisma and strength. These charismatic types are masters of outward confidence, self-assuredness, which is reassuring and infectious for those who feel unsteady or insecure in themselves. When your relationship, economic situation, or happiness appears to be breaking down, it’s the allure of the person who seems to have it all together that draws you in and makes you hope for the same, even if it’s a phony promise." ( from Psychology Today - why do people follow tyrants )

Yeah about *wierwille’s body of work – I mean piracy – it never had a legitimate leg to stand on in the academic, theological or even literary world - only his biggest fans give him a free pass on plagiarism. Even from a Christian point of view – his lying and stealing (plagiarism), his licentiousness - especially being a sexual predator, and his lack of self-control when it comes to alcohol and cigarettes speaks volumes on hypocrisy – one of the more unsavory topics in the Bible . A hypocrite professes to have a certain moral standard but then in practice ignores that moral norm. I’d say he was as phony as a three dollar bill – except *wierwille’s counterfeit Christianity was not so obvious to the naïve or those unfamiliar with some of the biblical criteria to spot a false teacher, a religious hypocrite or a bad tree - (and perhaps there's some folks who simply choose to blissfully ignore those tips on discernment) ( see Matthew 7: 15 to 29 Matthew 23 Luke 6: 39 to 49 Titus 1:5 to 16 II Peter 2 ). WordWolf, I appreciate you bringing this up – it gives me another opportunity to get the message out to TWI and splinter groups…to those who’ve joined…to those who are firmly-joined like Krazy Glue…to compulsive joiners…to wanna-joins…to on-the-fence-joiners…now hear this: RUN FOR THE HILLS – GET AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE FROM EXPLOITATIVE CULTS AND THE *wierwille FANBASE !!! *Editor’s note on my spelling of wierwille: For all you grammar-geeks out there , I know I’m supposed to capitalize the first letter of a proper noun but there is nothing proper about wierwille.

Sometimes I forget what the attraction of splinter groups is. Attraction: the action or power of evoking interest, pleasure, or liking for someone or something. Similar words: appeal, desirability, seductiveness, seduction…I think it comes down to the fact that they (splinter groups) have already been seduced by the counterfeit Christianity and the supposedly spiritual elitism of wierwille – and so leaving TWI to join a splinter group is more or less a lateral move – where there’s a lot of similarities since one is comfortable being “institutionalized”. Definition 1: “Institutionalisation (or institutionalization) refers to the process of embedding some conception (for example a belief, norm, social role, particular value or mode of behavior) within an organization, social system, or society as a whole. The term may also be used to refer to committing a particular individual or group to an institution, such as a mental or welfare institution.” (from wikipedia ). Definition 2: I also found another definition that references being locked up in prison “Being institutionalized means that a person has been locked up long enough that they have become used to it, and this can create problems upon ones release. Prison has a very different culture and day to day life than life on the outside, and if you spend long on the inside you easily become used to it.” (From Quora ) The first definition made me think of my corps training – embedding a certain set of beliefs, values, behavior and my role in the insulated world of TWI…essentially my commitment to go through the way corps program was being willing to assume a life inside a supposedly protective bubble – something of a portable alternate world within a real world, if you will. The second definition made me think of how difficult it was for me to drum up the courage to escape from the mental imprisonment of an exploitative cult. The reason it was difficult for me to leave was because of the idea of some “comfort zone” that TWI drummed into my head – as part of the TWI mindset, I believed sticking with the ministry would always be an experience of feeling safe or at ease and without stress…however when the questions and doubts started poking holes in my “bubble” I slowly began to realize that the “air” outside wasn’t toxic or harmful at all – rather it was a breath of fresh air. And perhaps some of the mental and emotional pain, numbness and stiffness of leaving my comfort zone were from engaging the atrophied muscles of suppressed feelings and critical / creative thinking skills. So what would I say to someone who is already in a splinter group or is thinking of joining one? I’d ask them what can you get there that you can’t get another way – by reading the Bible on your own without the PFAL-colored glasses? Is it such a daunting task to drop the spiritual snobbery you have – that is inherent in wierwille’s teachings - and find a local church, fellowship or even just Christian friends who are not fans of wierwille’s body of work?

You sound like one of those suppressive persons Scientology warned about ....just kidding I think you’re right…it’s sickening to think that wierwille is now immortalized by some for whatever whitewashed and/or delusional reasons.

Skyrider, your post got me thinking of how much more complex the inner-workings of TWI are. It’s wheels within wheels (not to be confused with Ezekiel’s wheel ) : “If you say that there are wheels within wheels, you mean that there are a number of different influences, reasons, and actions which together make a situation complicated and difficult to understand. ‘Our culture is more complex than he knows. Wheels within wheels.’ ” (from Collins dictionary ) …Exploring how TWI institutionalized social controls has always held my interest – but you got me thinking of another angle – that looks at the heart of the problem – who really runs the show. I like the timeline of the secret and not-so-secret managerial tactics of a cult in your post - wheels within wheels…makes me wonder if it’s even worth it to address any of the issues you mentioned in your very first post to the new president ( here ) – maybe that’s all just slapping a Band-Aid on the deeper problems of a mini puppet government – “a government which is endowed with the outward symbols of authority but in which direction and control are exercised by another power.” ( from Merriam Webster ) I believe Rosie the puppeteer is cut from the same cloth as wierwille - a predator or parasite. “…the social predator or parasite is also a puppeteer, but in a different way. Unlike the narcissist, they don’t need an audience, what they need are victims so they can act out as either a predator or a parasite. It doesn’t matter to them if it’s family or a stranger, so long as their needs are met. They are just as content stealing their mother’s life savings or moving from one spouse to another, so long as they can leech off their spouse’s bank account. While the narcissist prefers a servile audience, the predator parasite merely needs a human host that can do something for them.” (from Psychology Today ) For some reason I thought of the plot twist in the film The Dark Knight Rises . Without giving away too much to those who haven’t seen the movie yet – I was shocked when someone who was close to Bruce Wayne – turned out to be somewhat of a puppeteer and taking advantage of that relationship, is able to get close enough to stab unsuspecting Batman…So I don’t know if any kind of reform or makeover can salvage TWI – and if I were you Vern I’d watch my back. Sooooooo…I think Penworks has the right idea – dissolve TWI.

thanks for the clarification, Flow7

What you said seems to reflect a skepticism that does not see the importance of historians’ efforts to investigate the events, records, documents, facts, and human affairs of the past – and basically sounds like you are denying it’s possible to access the past. Did I get that right? Is that what you are saying? Also, I think you may be conflating “20/20 hindsight” with what historians actually do. “Hindsight is 20/20 is a proverb that means it is easy to understand something after it has already happened. The expression hindsight is 20/20 is usually said in answer to an admonishment that the person should have known something would happen, or that the person made a bad decision. It is easy to see what someone should have done, after the situation is already finished.” (from grammarist.com )…So basically 20/20 hindsight is a way of thinking about events or decisions that have already happened…in other words history. And implicit in the proverb of 20/20 hindsight is that there is no need for a corrective lens – the answer is obviously crystal clear. Could you please clarify what you mean by “rewriting of history is a favorite passion of historians.” Are you talking about historical revisionism? I believe there is such a thing as legitimate historical revisionism which “entails the refinement of existing knowledge about a historical event, not a denial of the event, itself; that such refinement of history emerges from the examination of new, empirical evidence, and a re-examination, and consequent re-interpretation of the existing documentary evidence. That legitimate historical revisionism acknowledges the existence of a "certain body of irrefutable evidence" and the existence of a "convergence of evidence", which suggest that an event – such as the Black Death, American slavery, and the Holocaust – did occur; whereas the denialism of history rejects the entire foundation of historical evidence, which is a form of historical negationism.” (From Wikipedia - historical revisionism )

Hi Beguiled, I am blown away by your openness and honesty! That’s a tough situation with your parents choosing TWI over you - I hope something works out down the road. Not that you are part of the problem – but rather you are part of the solution – because they are the ones still stuck in the rabbit hole of a bizarre mindset…There’s something so hypocritical about TWI claiming that PFAL develops more harmony in the home (as stated on the back of the green PFAL sign-up card) and yet – truth be told - many longstanding grads found themselves in ultimatum-type-situations…with the pressure of TWI leadership challenging…or rather demanding one choose between “The Word” or family/friends/spouse. I was neither a victim nor a predator in TWI – but I was in training to be a good facilitator in Family Corps 11. Facilitate: make (an action or process) easy or easier; aid; expedite, promote, grease the wheels; open doors. Without all their trained flunkies – I mean facilitators – I wonder where would TWI be now? I left in 1986 – during our corps field assignment year – so I never did graduate – I began addressing the mounting doubts and questions I had. And as I talked to others who had left – and then later joining Grease Spot in 2006 - it was always the accounts of moral depravity that were deeply troubling – and still are to me. Maybe initially it was over intellectual or doctrinal reasons that I left – but getting really pi$$ed off at the hypocrisy and corruption sealed the deal for me…That’s one of the reasons why I keep posting on Grease Spot and why I think posts like yours, Lifted Up and others are so important – in hope that something said will lodge a question or doubt…resonate… and gain traction in the mind of some good little old facilitator who visits Grease Spot – and maybe they then take stock of their commitments and what kind of organization they’ve been promoting…and if they leave that’s one less flunky to grease the wheels of an abusive cult. You mentioned covid – I have to say one of the things we’ve been doing lately during the pandemic is looking at some old home videos of vacations and visiting relatives - all these videos were made AFTER we left TWI…(on a side note – when we were in TWI we never took vacations or rarely visited relatives due to lack of money or time for such “worldly things”)…anyway - aside from enjoying the videos of typical scenic and fun stuff while on vacations – we really got into some of the “break times” - some might even say boring stuff – like being in a motel by Lake Murray State Park in Oklahoma…I’m videoing the kids jumping all over the beds…but missed it when our daughter fell off the bed and hurts her hand (nothing serious though)…so our son immediately becomes a channel 11 reporter at the scene - addresses the camera and holding a pretend microphone begins to tell us what happened and then proceeds to reenact the whole incident – even doing his own stunt I might add…we would just die laughing watching simple stuff like that – and so thankful we left TWI and chose to put our family first. I wish you, your new child and the rest of your family the best and hope you get to make lots of good memories.

Rocky, I took no pleasure in reading “Night” but that’s not to say I don’t appreciate you recommending this book – it is something that I believe is necessary to read. In the bigger picture – some of which was discussed here - the sheer enormity of the Jews murdered…the brutality…the inhumanity…is nothing short of absolutely mind-boggling – and to be honest, when my mind is overwhelmed like that, I sometimes have to stop thinking about it for a while. But the book has a different and more profound effect. The story is told not from the panorama of the entire Holocaust – but from the perspective of just one 15 year old boy Elie Wiesel. At the start of the read, I had a bad habit of second-guessing or judging how he handled things mentally – so I had to intentionally set aside the comfortable zone of my perspective from a pleasant upbringing and carefree teenage experiences. I’m not saying I could then identify with Elie – but at least I stopped finding some fault in his reactions and thoughts. Maybe we all have a tendency to play Monday morning quarterback sometimes. The older I get and the more experiences I accumulate – I like to think I’d be able to handle some catastrophic event – but the bottom line is I just don’t know. Oddly enough, I did not want to take a break from the book, like I mentioned above when thinking of the immensity of the Holocaust. Maybe it was simply a thing of Elie’s simple straightforward compelling and engaging narrative of events and me wondering how much more could he take and how he would handle it that so held my interest. From the book a few things stick out to me: Things held dear – family, faith, dignity, belongings…a gold crown tooth or just the shoes on his feet…even life itself – were upended and devastated…Elie seeing children and babies thrown into the crematorium (I cannot erase that scene from my mind)… The disparity of human behavior – Elie seeing their tough and cruel guards engage in a friendly interaction with some local German girls as they marched the prisoners through the streets to a labor camp…They were forced to look upon other prisoners being hanged for some infraction. While seeing a young child hanged – someone behind Elie asked “where is God?” and Elie replied “there – hanging on the gallows”…At one camp, crammed into very small barracks it was literally people piled on top of one another – some suffocating under the blanket of bodies, dying overnight – Elie digging his nails into unknown faces to move them for an airway – that’s got to be one of the creepiest things that really got to me…another time laying silently in an upper bunk while an SS officer brutally beat his father in the bunk below – fearing he would also get beaten – even when his dying dad called out his name he would not answer – if that was me hearing my dad’s last word of calling out my name - that would haunt me for the rest of my life. Tonto and I went to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C. in 2002 – and that was certainly a somber and sacred experience. Reading “Night” was certainly like that but also felt more emotionally immersive - one person’s story is truly a powerful thing.

You can analyze minutely verses like that in Matthew 7 on wolves, corrupt tree and evil fruit – but if you have a cultic-mindset like I had in TWI – you might not see who it applies to. In the if-the-shoe-fits-wear-it scenario – way back when, if you would have asked me “are you in a cult?” my response would be “nope - it don’t fit”. I was blind to the manipulative and deceptive tactics of TWI and could not see that the real fruit TWI produced was usually exploitative by nature – their ways and means...their methods were infused with taking unfair AND unethical advantage of followers for the convenience, profit and advancement of those in the power structure - the hierarchy that encompasses the most powerful people in The Way International…the wolves in Jesus’ warning conjures up images of rapacious animals – aggressively greedy or grasping... predators ruthlessly exploiting their prey. Somewhere along my journey through The Way – unperceived by me of course - there were mental habits and beliefs instilled that frustrated or suppressed clear thinking - basically orienting me to think TWI’s doctrine and methods were the be-all-and-end-all of what’s important and crucial to life…Such is the nature of self-deception – which is “a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception.” ( from Wikipedia - self-deception ) My 12 years of involvement can briefly be summed up as a continuous effort of spinning my wheels thinking I was getting somewhere in life. Just keep confessing and believing someday it will finally work.Keep your nose to the grindstone – think of the drudgery of way-corps-indentured-servitude as a way of being free from the cares of this world...Matthew 6:24 says you cannot serve two masters…and I was such a compliant little sheep that for all practical purposes the board of trustees, corps coordinators, and any other Pharisee wearing a way corps name-tag held more sway over my life than even the Lord Jesus Christ. For me it took the chaotic and irksome $hit-storm after Chris G’s “passing of the patriarch” to somehow expose a chink in my armor of ignorance – questions and doubts came rushing through the gap. That was the beginning of my escape out of the rabbit hole. “Against logic there is no armor like ignorance”... Laurence J. Peter educator, psychologist, writer (best known for the development of the the Peter Principle ) It takes some courage to damn the torpedoes and face those doubts and questions head on. “We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow.” (clinical psychologist Cortney S. Warren Ph.D.) On a side note, I believe self-reflection is a necessary part of interpreting or understanding the Bible - in other words, determining if or how it applies to me. And even in secular applications some habit of self-awareness matters – to determine if something is a good fit for us, to honor our uniqueness instead of just absorbing some popular mindset, and to become more comfortable and confident as we learn to be ourselves. (see Psychology Today What is self-awareness )

According to Wikipedia the genocide was carried out not just in Nazi Germany but also across German-occupied Europe and using more than just gas chambers: "The Holocaust, also known as the Shoah, was the World War II genocide of the European Jews. Between 1941 and 1945, across German-occupied Europe, Nazi Germany and its collaborators systematically murdered some six million Jews, around two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population.The murders were carried out in pogroms and mass shootings; by a policy of extermination through work in concentration camps; and in gas chambers and gas vans in German extermination camps, chiefly Auschwitz, Bełżec, Chełmno, Majdanek, Sobibór, and Treblinka in occupied Poland." from Wikipedia - the Holocaust see also Wikipedia - German-occupied Europe

I think you might be comparing apples to oranges – your example with the stop sign assumes I see the approaching speedy car and that I assess it is exceeding the posted speed limit and it does not look like it's slowing down for the stop sign – in that simple scenario I agree with you, it would be foolish on my part to ignore such risk factors from my perspective and judgement. There’s a lot more to understanding the Holocaust - since it involves many perspectives and how people evaluated things, and how involved others may want to get in keeping something bad from happening (speaking in reference to the international community - which I'll get into below) - so I don’t think your simple example is appropriate – but your statement “if you can see something bad is going to happen, it is in your best interest to avoid it” got me thinking of the bigger picture – and in general, ask “what were the warning signs and were they ignored?” I found this on - U.S. Holocaust Museum - “While warning signs are undoubtedly clearer in hindsight, reflecting on the events of 1938 challenges us to consider what might motivate us to respond to indicators of genocide today. History teaches us that genocide can be prevented if people care enough to act. Our choices in response to hatred truly do matter, and together we can help fulfill the promise of “Never Again.”…this page also gives a timeline of some of the early warning signs like in March of 1938 “German troops enter Austria, which is incorporated into the German Reich…German authorities quickly implement anti-Jewish legislation that encourages an atmosphere of hostility toward the Jewish population.” And on - PBS – Why Jews didn’t leave Europe - Leon Botstein is a Swiss- American Jewish conductor and scholar in an interview discussed “why Jews didn’t leave Europe, particularly Germany, after Hitler came to power in 1933. “The Nazis were not as organized as the American film industry describes them,” he says. “In the breach, segregating the Jewish population was the first order of business.” Indeed, Hitler even ordered that Jewish classical musicians be fired from their groups in the early months of 1933. However, says Botstein, most German Jews didn’t question that they would live and die in Germany. They thought Hitler was temporary or that he was so extreme that there would be a reaction against him. “There was always two Germanys,” Botstein cites, “There was the Germany of high culture…and the Germany of the beer hall and…of blood-and-soil nationalism, which eventually triumphed. Anti-Semitism or even radical anti-Semitism wasn’t a surprise to Germans at the time, even after Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass in 1938) and the outbreak of World War II in 1939, according to Botstein. “People knew things would be terrible, but no one imagined to what extent,” says Botstein.” There might have been many who thought something bad was going to happen – but as Botstein said maybe they couldn’t foresee how bad it would be or thought it might just be something short-term . And there’s another thing to consider about the early warning signs – the lack of response from the international community – in July of 1938 – “Intensified persecution in Germany led more Jews to try to emigrate, which required a nation to allow them to enter. In response to increased refugee demand, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt convened a conference in Evian, France. There, representatives from 32 nations discussed their immigration policies. Delegate after delegate expressed sympathy for the refugees, but most countries, including the United States, refused to alter their immigration policies to admit more of them. Only the Dominican Republic agreed to accept a large number of additional refugees.” (this quote is also from above link to US Holocaust Memorial Museum ). There's a lot more to this topic - I'm just offering up a couple of examples of why I don't think the simple stop sign/avoiding risk analogy is applicable. By the way, the time-frame of Wiesel’s book is when the Holocaust was already in high gear (his original manuscript was completed in 1954). Rocky, sorry this wasn’t a discussion of the book – but I thought these few historical details gave some background to Wiesel’s dire situation...I’ve never experienced such hopelessness and utter cruelty – so it’s hard for me to relate to his story – maybe that’s why Moishe had difficulty finding people who would listen to his warnings (even Wiesel says he did not believe him) – until they experienced it for themselves.

you present a false dilemma to further your opinion.

I tend to be very skeptical of attempts to spiritualize a situation past or present. It seems to me that there is usually an assumption that undergirds these attempts – the assumption being that this outlook dubbed “spiritual” is the real, true or correct perspective – and I think this will always obfuscate the matter…Even though the Bible does mention spiritual entities (God, Satan, angels, demons) when it comes to attributing evil to a responsible party – I think Jesus’ words were plain and clear on this: 18 “But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”…Matthew 15: 18-20 NIV 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!”...Matthew 18:6, 7 NIV The other thing I wanted to say about your post is that it seems to find fault with or blame the victim. Maybe that’s not what you meant. Since your ideas spanned two forums I brought this quote over from the Atheists FAQ forum, to add one more thing that’s wrong about “spiritualizing” events. Without getting into a lot of politics here – if you were referencing the recent protestors and the Black Lives Matter movement which actually began several years ago – to suggest there is something spiritual behind it is to trivialize it all (trivialize = make it seem less important, less significant, or less complex than it really is). And as I said above it tends to obfuscate the matter (obfuscate = render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible) which means it prevents any meaningful conversation from taking place.

Saying that to a little kid is just plain cruel – besides being wildly foolish (what if the child crosses paths with the supposedly dead parent?) And if I’m understanding your story right – that’s exactly what happened when the divorced parents remarried…I think if you told a kid something like “your dad never loved you anyway” would be pretty psychologically damaging all by itself – but to say “your dad is dead” presents a totally hopeless situation to the kid. Now it appears there’s no way to verify that or improve on the relationship. Anyway - how horrible to do that to kids…I’ve never personally heard of death “stories” like that but I’m familiar with TWI’s other manipulative and divisive tactics to force people to choose between family/friends/loved ones and “The Word”.