T-Bone

Yes – I hope it does too – though it is hard to resist wondering what are the real reasons why the website removed certain material: “The group has drawn media interest due to Judge Amy Coney Barrett's association with the group. Numerous media outlets have reported that Barrett is a member. In the wake of heightened interest in the group and its members following her nomination, People of Praise removed some materials from its website: "Recent changes to our website were made in consultation with members and nonmembers from around the country who raised concerns about their and their families' privacy due to heightened media attention” ( from Wikipedia - people of praise ) Saying stuff was removed over “concerns about their and their families' privacy due to heightened media attention” seems odd and suspicious to me since they consulted with members and nonmembers. ....Grease Spot is transparent to members and nonmembers – there’s nothing to hide; but then again Grease Spot is not a male-dominated religious organization with intrusive and controlling tactics as another excerpt from the Wikipedia article seems to suggest: “The highest office a woman can hold in the community is "woman leader" (formerly "handmaid"). Women leaders "teach women on womanly affairs, give advice, help in troubled situations" and lead specialized women's activities. The term handmaiden was chosen in 1971 as a reference to Mary, the mother of Jesus, who, in most English translations of the Bible, described herself as "the handmaid of the Lord" or a woman who is close to God. The community teaches that husbands are the head of the household as well as the spiritual head of their wives. While it emphasizes traditional gender roles, the organization encourages women to pursue higher education and employment. In much of community life, men and women work together without distinction. Both men and women prophesy and exhort at community meetings, teach together in the community sponsored schools, serve together as counselors at community camps, or as members or heads of music ministries, and evangelize together in inner cities. Still, there are some significant distinctions in the roles of men and women. As noted above, women are not able to be coordinators. The community, which refers to itself as a "family of families," sees this patriarchal tradition as following the biblical model of the family. Men and women meet separately each week in small groups called 'men's groups' or 'women's groups.' The purpose is to build deeper relationships as brothers and sisters in Christ by discussing their lives and other issues with the goal of gaining wisdom, deepening friendships, and encouraging one another to be faithful to God. Traditional roles are reinforced by encouraging men to do most of the heavier physical work involved when a family is moving to a new home or re-roofing a house, and when setting up for meetings and similar tasks. Women are encouraged to provide food and childcare and run an effective household. However, these distinctions are not absolute. For example, women have also labored side by side with men in the construction work involved in the community's Allendale outreach.” Yeah….makes me think of the extreme-legalistic-intrusive-controlling phase of TWI in the years after I left – something I only know about from others who experienced that and shared on Grease Spot…and there’s some personal-prophesy-momentus-intrusive-manipulative vibes suggested in this article too ( obviously I held onto my Top-Ultra- Secret-To-The-Nth Degree-Max-For-Your-Earballs-Only-Cult-Speak-Decoder-Ring and put it to good use occasionally ).

Hi Robinette, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the consequences of sin. You mentioned David remained king even after his sins (adultery and the murder of Uriah). That’s true but even though he was forgiven there were severe lingering consequences. Since he had done evil to another man’s family, King David would receive evil in his own family – the rape of Tamar (daughter of David by Macaah) by David’s son Amnon and then another son of David Absalom avenges Tamar by murdering Amnon ( II Samuel 13 ). Sometime later Absalom was rebellious – and quietly built up support, declared himself king and mounted a revolt at Hebron, forcing David to flee to Jerusalem ( II Samuel 15 ); later on Absalom set up a tent on the roof of the palace ( perhaps throwing in David's face where his adulterous musing began) and had sexual relations with David’s concubines to assert his right to his father’s throne ( II Samuel 16: 21, 22 ) – fulfilling the judgement pronounced by Nathan ( II Samuel 12: 11, 12 )…after his affair with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah, David wrote of his confession and plea for forgiveness in Psalm 51 ...the whole mess was not something that was swept under the carpet. == == == Moving on to your reference of Paul chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ even after he so violently persecuted the church – you left out the most critical life-changing event – his conversion – being witnessed to by Jesus Christ himself! Paul’s former life as a persecutor would indeed look odd on an application to be a pastor of a church. Who would hire someone like that? Indeed many Christians initially had a hard time believing this persecutor had changed for the better and was now truly one of them ( Acts 9 )…Paul even said of himself he was unworthy to be called an apostle – probably recalling his previous life of overseeing the imprisonment and death of Christians – but he could not deny the effect of God’s grace and forgiveness ( I Corinthians 15 verses 8-10 ) “The conversion of Paul, in spite of his attempts to completely eradicate Christianity, is seen as evidence of the power of Divine Grace, with "no fall so deep that grace cannot descend to it" and "no height so lofty that grace cannot lift the sinner to it." It also demonstrates "God's power to use everything, even the hostile persecutor, to achieve the divine purpose." From Wikipedia on the conversion of Paul . Again Paul's former lifestyle as a persecutor of the Church was not something that was swept under the carpet. One good model for handling issues within the church is in I Corinthians 5 - Paul brings up the immorality of one of the church members – but he devotes some criticism to the pride of the rest of the church members in ignoring such blatant immorality. Paul talks of the powerful influence of evil when it’s tolerated – a little leaven will permeate and corrupt the whole church. I believe this issue is revisited in II Corinthians 2 Paul talks about the biblical process of disciplining being successful, the person repented and it is time to grant forgiveness...again the issue was not something that was swept under the carpet - it was addressed publicly. If we look at Matthew 5: 23, 24 we find that reconciling with someone we offended comes before any other religious obligation - even worship...and so we see the point of forgiveness is reconciliation – to God and the church...and another practical matter to consider is what happens to both sides of the offense (the offender and the one offended) - if the situation or event is ignored and allowed to fester - there will probably be a festering of resentment, anger, frustration, etc. on both sides - further complicating things and compounding more "little" sins on both sides...and really if stuff doesn't get resolved people usually get on with their lives - but there will always be some "bad blood" in the family in the here and now...and realistically speaking - none of us are perfect - we've all got some kind of dysfunctionality going on in our relationships. I began learning about biblical counseling from one TWI-clergy guy in our area – he held a seminar for Twig leaders and much of the material was based on some videos and books by Jay Adams. After that we were encouraged to study, review and practice this stuff in our areas of responsibility (as a side note one thing that helped to broaden peoples’ horizons in TWI was when folks read outside TWI’s dogma entrenched books) ; years later – after spending two years in-residence corps training and being up close around top leadership – I began to realize there was a disconnect with the priority of walking the talk and top leadership. I was seeing their hypocrisy; there was a double standard in TWI. Those of us who were rank and file were expected to hold to the ethical standards of Christianity at all times. However even though they professed that they did the same thing, top leadership marched to the beat of a different drummer – doing whatever the hell they wanted in private – following the appetites of their moral depravity. See Matthew 23 on hypocrites in leadership positions...Obviously not something that God wants swept under the carpet. Jay Adams' big deal was nouthetic counseling. “Nouthetic counseling (Greek: noutheteo, to admonish) is a form of evangelical Protestant pastoral counseling based solely upon the Bible and focused on Christ. It repudiates mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic, fundamentally opposed to Christianity, and radically secular. Its viewpoint was originally articulated by Jay E. Adams, in Competent to Counsel (1970) and further books, and has led to the formation of a number of organizations and seminary courses promoting it. The viewpoint is opposed to those seeking to synthesize Christianity with secular psychological thought, but has failed to win them over to a purely biblical approach. Since 1993, the movement has renamed itself biblical counseling to emphasize its central focus on the Bible. The Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling states that "The aim of Nouthetic Counseling is to effect change in the counselee by encouraging greater conformity to the principles of Scripture…Nouthetic counseling has been criticized as narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus upon sin and behavior, which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, and which lacks understanding of complex human motivations.” From Wikipedia nouthetic counseling == == == == Biblical counseling has always held my interest – even after leaving TWI. I have continued to study and read up on the subject since I try to apply certain principles in my own life (through reflection, self-examination) and being empathetic…a good listener…provide honest feedback and support…and mainly to just be a good friend to all who cross my path. I think one of the biggest drawbacks of nouthetic counseling – is that it is not a complete set of tools for dealing with the human condition. As the criticism in Wikipedia mentioned – it does not really acknowledge nor competently handle the emotions, grief, suffering, and motivations of the people being counseled; furthermore the Jay Adams’ strain of nouthetic counseling (as well as some other groups, like TWI) shun the disciplines of secular psychology/psychiatry and the use of medications for mental illness …I lean more toward an integration of the Bible and psychology – I tend to think there is some common ground and I also have a lot of respect for the work of mental health professionals and the medications used to treat mental illnesses - btw, concerning integration see Wikipedia - Christian counseling …of course, this is all just my opinion and I could be wrong. == == == == Hey, I was wondering - and I hope it's not rude to ask - What did you do in TWI? Corps? WOW? Leadership roles? Why did you leave TWI? What do you do now – fellowship wise? peace T-Bone out

Good post, WordWolf – I wanted to elaborate on some of your points. How many times have we heard upper leadership in TWI refer to wierwille as “our father in The Word”? With former TWI leaders like Lynn starting an offshoot brings to mind an old adage: “like father like son” meaning a son's character or behavior can be expected to resemble that of his father. Lynn didn’t try to hide the source of his material – as wierwille the preeminent plagiarist did. And by the way - I might add that not all of the material that wierwille stole was just straight forward Bible teaching or for that matter that he had a scholar's grasp of the material - think of lazy cheaters who copy off of students who have actually studied, did all the homework and can even show you again and again exactly how to solve the math problems on a test ; if you deconstruct the whole enchilada (aka wierwille's theology) you'll find an eclectic recipe that pulls from fundamentalism, dispensationalism, mysticism, magical thinking, Gnosticism, pseudo-science, lecherous musings, Drambuie-infused reveries and then compiled by self-serving scripture twisting. The end product was wierwille's egocentric theology as opposed to a Christ-centric theology...Now some of Lynn’s stuff does sound like he gives Christ more “airplay” – but (and I could be wrong on this) his message of Christ seems more like a marketing tool to develop and promote Lynn’s ideas, books and “services”. For obvious reasons Lynn counted on TWI-followers' adulation of wierwille and their conditioned response to adhere to wierwille's "rightly-divided Word" as a means to sucker folks over to his own con game. So technically I guess he didn’t plagiarize a plagiarist – he attempts to perpetuate, propagate, elaborate and extrapolate on a plagiarist’s (wierwille's) twisted theology – in his own words, Lynn referred to wierwille’s egocentric theology as gold: “Here’s an analogy that has blessed lots of people: WE HAVE ESCAPED FROM EGYPT WITH ALL THE GOLD! That’s right--we’re free, and we have all the right doctrine we heard, and the keys to learning more. So let’s spend the gold! That sounds better than sitting on it and lamenting our time in Egypt.” From one of John Lynn’s letters here Like father like son – on how Lynn got his audience. It’s somewhat similar to wierwille hijacking Christians from the Jesus Movement ( see here and here ). It differs in a couple of ways though. wierwille commandeered Christians who had Christ as the head – and through narcissism and megalomania wierwille made himself into the unannounced head of his counterfeit Christianity…so Lynn’s ploy is more along the lines of one thief stealing from what another thief stole. wierwille stole from Christ's flock. Lynn stole from wierwille's flock. Like father like son. Some Grease Spotters referred to personal prophecy and momentous as “bludgeoning tools”: “CES/STF has had several major mistakes: Momentus/VisionQuest used as a bludgeoning tool against people without their permission instead of a person using it on themself; Personal Prophecy is used in the same bludgeoning manner against someone like EL without her request or permission.” See here and here …I have not had any experience with personal prophecy or momentus – but it seems to me like Lynn found a cheap and convenient substitute for the intrusive-manipulative-berating-guilt-tripping tactics of the way corps program – I mean you don’t have to drum up goo-gobs of money from sponsors and you don’t have to relocate to a cult owned property for a couple of years – that’s all a plus, right? They beat up on your life more efficiently and pass the savings on to you.

God bless you Grace! I believe your courage and empathy is a big deal - and a blessing - not only to the folks here at Grease Spot but also to anyone else who crosses your path.

It doesn’t matter what it’s labeled – foundational, intermediate, advanced, “new and improved” advanced class – it’s still snake oil: a substance with no real medicinal value sold as a remedy for all diseases; a product, policy, etc. of little real worth or value that is promoted as the solution to a problem. I have one question regarding all these classes. What qualifies them – any of them (past or present – wierwille, Craig or any other snake oil salesperson) to teach this stuff? What was/is their training and experience? And since we’re talking turkey – we can eliminate all the subsequent cult-leader-regurgitating-knockoffs and look at the original jive turkey – wierwille. So what training and experience qualified wierwille to teach about the holy spirit? He barged in on BG Leonard’s class and afterwards stole BG's class - even right down to the silly names of Maggie Muggins, Johnny Jump Up and Snowball Pete – and along with a lot of other plagiarized material put his own classes together. He did not do the research himself nor put forth any effort to develop theory and practice. The only way he made any of this stuff his own – was by slapping his name on plagiarized material. He was a snake oil salesman – all talk but nothing of real substance. Speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues and prophecy is just talk too – in that they can be faked – so put that in your Lo-Shanta and smoke it. Whoa – how about those revelation manifestations - word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits. Sorry – don’t think I can ever trust the supposed spiritual insight of a guy who was up to his earballs in personal demons of lying, stealing, alcohol, sexual predation and who knows what else…all talk and no walk. Last but not least – the power manifestations – faith, miracles and gifts of healing. Okay, show of hands – how many still believe wierwille’s supposed miracle of him telling the guy who didn’t believe in Jesus to raise his withered arm? Go ahead, now raise your hand. I still remember the frustration I had trying to console the disappointment of a woman in our Twig. She just came back from an advance at Camp Gunnison – where she asked wierwille to heal one of her toes that was messed up from birth - always uncomfortable and occasionally very painful. Of course he couldn’t do anything – but lets her limp off feeling guilty about her lack of believing… Soooooooo – back to present day…What qualifies any of these snake oil salespersons to teach this stuff? Regurgitation is NOT a manifestation of the spirit.

Thinking of Skyrider’s point, marketing the Advanced Class as the way to attain “spiritual maturity” brought back memories leading up to and then taking my first Advanced Class in 1978. I was held in rapt attention when a couple just came back from taking the Advanced Class and shared some of the things they learned – about the god of this world who works through the Illuminati, wrong seed, those controlled or influenced by devil spirits…but that it’s Christ’s eyes behind my eyes, his ears behind my ears…and that we believers are the only ones keeping this country from going down the tubes. Sounded like the ultimate action/thriller movie – so count me in! That was then…this is now (some 34 years after leaving TWI) – I now consider it the ultimate action/thriller fantasy con game. Spoiler alert – this is a warning that an important detail of how cults work is about to be revealed…Cults proudly proclaim their uniqueness and superiority to other paths. They offer not just another path to knowledge and fulfilment – they insist that they are the one and only path to knowledge and fulfilment. This is the lure that entices you into the trap. After the love-bombing…long after the honeymoon is over…it’s all that soft-sell and periodic mini-social conditioning at the Twig and Branch level that preps you for the ultimate cultdom experience – seasoned con artists plying their trade on cult property. They are in full control…cue the beginning of The Outer Limits …yikes !!! Here’s a few memories from Advanced Class ’78 that I shared on another thread: This is a picture I took at Advanced Class '78 - I titled it Fat Man and Little Boy (Fat Man and Little Boy were the code names for the atomic bombs that caused widespread destruction in Japan during World War II)

Here's a picture from my Advanced Class in 1978 - I titled it Fat Man and Little Boy. Fat Man and Little Boy were the code names for the atomic bombs that caused widespread destruction in Japan during World War II Wikipedia Fat Man Wikipedia - Little Boy

Grease Spot is a good conduit for therapy. I think discussing bad experiences is more than telling the other side of the story (as important as that is). Thinking about these recent posts reminded me of how much good therapy I get from Grease Spot. I know I must bore some old timers here when I go over and over again and again some of my experiences . Some of what motivates me is to provide a point of resonance for others who have had similar experiences – so they won’t feel they’re weird or alone. But I sure get a lot out of it too! So I googled “therapeutic to talk to others about bad experiences” and found a cool article – excerpts are below and the link to the article is below that: 1. To get support – a 1995 study squashed the idea that human traumas are uncommon. Now, we might even say it’s the norm. While that might be true, trauma still isn’t something most people feel comfortable publicizing. Therefore, a solution for many people is a survivors’ group. Survivors’ groups can be some of the best ways to find understanding and empathy. If you’re simultaneously in recovery from substance abuse, groups like AA and NA are full of fellow trauma survivors. Support doesn’t have to come from an organized group—it can come from family, friends, a hotline volunteer, or mental health professional. But there’s something about a group of people who have been through a similar experience that can feel like the freshest of air. 2. To make sense of what happened – trauma doesn’t make sense, it’s a mess of emotions, reactions and questions – it’s unspeakable – more of a roar than words; therefore turning the unspeakable into language is necessary to make sense of trauma. 3. To realize you are more than your trauma; Trauma can sometimes seem like the defining point in one’s life. There’s life before the assault, the accident, or the war, and then there’s an entirely different life after. The degree to which people define themselves by their trauma is what psychologists refer to as event centrality. One study found that centrality of trauma can be both a bad sign and a good sign. It’s a bad sign when the trauma overwhelms your identity; But centrality can be a good sign when survivors assimilate the event into their identity. It becomes part of who they are. It made them who they are today. The trauma is central to their lives, but they’ve become a victor rather than a victim. 4. To get a reality check; trauma turns our understanding of the world upside-down. We think it’s our fault. We think no one can ever be trusted again. We think if anyone gets to know the real us, we’ll be abandoned faster than a beachfront house during hurricane season. But talking about trauma can debunk these mistaken beliefs. In particular, talking with a therapist about how a trauma has changed your worldview can illuminate your assumptions and force you to question them, as in, “Wait, maybe it was my rapist’s fault I got raped, not mine,” or “Wait, maybe getting help doesn’t mean I’m weak,” or “Wait, just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen every time.” 5. To make meaning; Like pressure turning coal into diamonds, a trauma survivor may make something more meaningful out of trauma; Why? Trauma makes us look inside ourselves. People work hard to make sense of it and to re-evaluate what’s important to them. Often, trauma sharpens our sense of purpose, reminds us to focus on our family or community, or sets us on a mission to give back, appreciate life, or realize our own strength and resilience. == == == == end of excerpts the above from Psychology Today – 5 reasons to talk about trauma

If Rosie does pounce – I can “imagineer” a drunken brawl erupting and someone with enough beer-bravado applies a chokehold on her – reminiscent of the scene when Nurse Ratched gets strangled by Jack N ....oh happy day! psssst ! it’s a 3 minute clip – the buildup to the strangle scene begins at the 2 minute mark…btw, after reviewing this YouTube clip a few times before posting it – I realized there's a lot of things about that movie that could be an allusion to a cult experience... ....anyway, great movie, Skyrider !

this above quote is important too - from same Vern Edwards decision thread

I don't know if this will clear things up but this Skyrider quote below is from the Vern Edwards the decision is yours thread :

you can still edit it. the edit button moved to the upper right of your post...click on the three dots and you will see 3 options: report, share and edit I think things got moved around when they did an update

will this do?

Rocky, for some reason I thought of the old saying a guilty conscience needs no accuser – where a person knows they are in the wrong reveal their guilt by what they say or even how they interpret what others say. In the context of Grease Spot, this idea comes to mind when folks come on here and vehemently defend, explain away, minimalize, distract, derail a discussion about wierwille, TWI, whatever and/or intensely attack Grease Spotters or the things they say.... sometimes it seems as if a discussion on Grease Spot has struck a nerve...Now when I said the person knows they are in the wrong – I mean as regards to the light of truth exposing some hypocrisy or cult mindset within themselves…a lightsaber splitting open their close-mindedness. I went through that many times myself when I first left TWI; one of the first experiences was while I was shopping for groceries and looking at other people realizing what a spiritual snob I was in TWI – holding back tears, squirming in the light of this new awareness that I was no better than anyone else. There’s another angle on this following WordWolf’s quote WordWolf, your post made me think of something I learned from Rocky’s "reading assignment" thread - so stay with me on this - folks that persist in any notions requiring Grease Spot to change reminded me of the scene in Hamlet when Queen Gertrude responded to the insincere overacting of a character portraying her in a play staged by Hamlet (so this is actually a play within a play); when Hamlet asks the Queen (his mother) what she thought of the play – she responded “the lady doth protest too much” meaning the emphatic declarations made by the actress portraying the Queen are too excessive to be believed see Wikipedia - the lady doth protest too much …usage of the phrase may vary currently – one writer on Quora said “thou doth protest too much “ is an indicator of hypocrisy, something like virtue signaling, only stronger…virtue signaling is an expression of moral values with the intent to enhance one's own image - see Wiki virtue signaling )…in summary I tend to think much of the negativity directed at Grease Spot and Grease Spotters is just posturing - behavior that is intended to impress or mislead.

There are issues with “let’s do the math”: Counting the years since con artists and false teachers were in power and guessing how to quantify and qualify those still suffering from their cult experience is NOT a viable math problem since you lack relevant facts – guesswork is not facts…Also missing is the clinical research to support your thesis that given X amount of time people should be "over" their bad experiences…Your “thesis” might also suggest there is a no-regard-for-the-thoughts-and-feelings-of-others problem in your own thought process...to expect Grease Spotters to “get over it ” is a callous and cold thing to say… Remembering the Holocaust is more than honoring the lives lost and families shattered – among other things here’s what several people have said after reading Holocaust survivor Elie Wisel’s “Night”: “ it is vitally important to inform our children so that in their turn they will stand up and not let such atrocities happen again.” … “It'd kind of disturbing to see and hear how these people where treated, but people need to know this stuff. They really do. Especially racial people who don't like people of a different religion or belief. Knowing this makes us think clearer and realize that we are our own enemy”…“The holocaust is relevant to today because there are still situations that occur around the world many are similar to the holocaust that many of us are unaware of, that’s why we need more people like Mr. Elie because we know so little about what he and the others went through those years” ( from from  U.S. Holocaust Museum Online – how is the Holocaust relevant today     ) The main reason I post on Grease Spot (and I don’t think I’m alone on this) is because there are reasonable and good folks still captivated by a cult mindset – whether they're in The Way International or some splinter group - who check out Grease Spot and hopefully something clicks in their minds and a yearning to think freely takes its first deep breath in.

I agree with you – in actual practice it does stink if one is at the receiving end of biblical condemnation. I don’t mean to dash your hopes of clearing things up – but - you seem to have an ax to grind about those who criticize con artists and false teachers. Your false assumptions about Grease Spotters and what is the priority of God’s will tend to obfuscate this discussion. I’m of the opinion that attempts to guilt-trip critics after one’s efforts to sweep moral depravity under the carpet have failed, usually indicates the criticism has touched a nerve.

FYI Con men are persistent and determined. Call me cynical and leery of con artists and repeat offenders who continue to pull the wool over folks’ eyes by appealing to “the Almighty’s 2nd chances”. In reading passages like Matthew 7: 15-20 and II Peter 2 it seems pretty obvious that it is God’s Will that Christians should NOT have a laissez faire attitude when it comes to con artists, false teachers, and supposed “spiritual leaders” who exploit and abuse others. Sure - let God deal with them on Judgment Day as He sees fit in the hereafter – but meanwhile in the here and now it’s our Christian responsibility to protect the flock from ravenous wolves.

Actually I prefer coffee over tea – and believe it or not Prine’s Jesus, The Missing Years is my cup of Joe – my wife turned me on to Prine – she has 7 of his albums one of which is The Missing Years which has that track on it. Expanding on what I said in previous post – how one interprets and/or connects with something presented in the arts is different for everyone. The song Jesus, The Missing Years actually conjures up a funny mix of early unique memories along with how I think of Jesus and my own personal journey. One of those memories is of my pot-smoking daze in Catholic high school. Around that time a cover of Jesus Is Just Alright by the Byrds and by The Doobie Brothers were popular – and I loved them both! One day while browsing through a local head shop I found a button that had a little image of Jesus with the words around it “take a trip with Jesus Christ” – I thought it was cool so I bought it. One day I kind of made that button come true. I was having a bad acid trip and the only thing I could think of doing was asking out loud for Jesus Christ to help me. I began to mellow out pretty quick. A miracle? I don’t know – I like to think that it was – but it definitely set me on the road of wanting to know him better… …getting back to Prine’s song it resonates with me in a variety of ways. I may be way off on all of this – but for me the song is not so much about the biblical Jesus – given the contemporary setting - it could also refer to a young Christian starting out on a path to find out what it’s all about. It represents a deeply spiritual and emotional trek – a long and arduous journey of thoughts, feelings and experiences - something that maybe others can relate to also: Questioning one’s own existence and identity. What is life all about? Is there such a thing as destiny? The loss of innocence. The disappointment and disillusionment from the commercialism of religion and the treachery of a cult like TWI. The growing pains of a worldview in a self-imposed state of flux…well, enough of my buzzkill ramblings – and back to my cup of Joe with some Vodka.

Thanks for mentioning The Book of Longings, Rocky – and I really enjoyed the YouTube interview with the author Sue Monk Kidd. She said so many interesting things about her research, experiences, silenced women – and especially the Black Madonna and imagination that I’ll have to read the book sometime. I know some folks can get offended by the artistic license and imagination of others. Personally, I think imagination is an important and even necessary part of developing my faith. That’s not to say I buy into everything that is presented through the arts – but it often helps me flesh out an existing idea, sometimes form new ideas or just rethink an existing concept…I am an unabashed Trinitarian but I find that I spend a lot more think-time on relating to Jesus Christ as a human being than trying to figure out how to combine the human with the divine…another shade of John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father except through me” ? I don’t know…anyway, Kidd’s The Book of Longings is on my reading list.

I agree…I think the Advanced Class and “the prevailing word” (just like the old PFAL class and its reconstituted version i.e. the way of abundance and power) are magnificent time-wasters generated by wishful thinking (the attribution of reality to what one wishes to be true or the tenuous justification of what one wants to believe)…of course, that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Wow - I didn't know being debt free was a requirement for taking the Advanced Class...but now that they're waiving that requirement for the two Advanced Classes in 2021 - I wonder if they will accept an I-owe-you for class payment ...anyway they're probably scrambling to get something together because of dwindling numbers, folks buying homes, cars, school loans, etc....makes me think of back in the day - they had a minimum of 7 students requirement to run a PFAL class, but I helped run many a class with less than 7 due to various circumstances...concessions were made

That says it all !!!!!!! That rings true when I think of my latter years of preparing to go in the way corps and then being in the program – what stands out in reference to what you said and what WordWolf posted are not just the teachings against murmuring but also how we should follow in blind obedience – as reflected in the excerpt from WordWolf’s posting of Craig’s staff meeting: Something else that goes along with the idea of not questioning or challenging leadership was how TWI got you to shut down YOUR thinking process. You were not encouraged to think but to absorb - another excerpt from WordWolf's post on Craig's staff meeting: I think this is one of The Way International’s (as well as many other cult’s) tried-and-true methods to get followers to drink the Kool-Aid – teaching you that you can’t go by your sense-knowledge…guess I was too much of a simpleton when I first took PFAL – because I took the claims on the back of the PFAL sign-up card so literally; and more often than not when I complained about NOT seeing those claims of the class pan out – I’d get some obfuscating explanation from those who under-shepherded me or some leader – it’s because I wasn’t really believing…I wasn’t spending more time reviewing the books and collaterals from PFAL…I wasn’t renewing my mind…blah, blah, blah…In retrospect I see the obvious pattern there – it was always MY fault …some shortcoming on my part – God forbid there was anything wrong with what was taught in PFAL. I admire folks who have always had a personal vision and method during their journey through life. Since I didn't have that - I believe that was probably part of my Achilles heel – that got me sucked in; I stuck around for so long because of wierwille's grand vision of word over the world – that I could be a part of something bigger than myself and that I would have all the answers pertaining to life and godliness…Your post made me reflect once again on what I got out of my TWI experience – what valid things I learned and the good people I met – one of them is my wife Tonto –and we’re still together! I was raised Roman Catholic but I had no interest in studying the Bible - and back then other than catechism and the stuff Catholic grammar school taught for my confirmation - whether it was in school or at Mass, there really was no teaching on doctrine, theology in general or even how to study the Bible . That void in a young Christian's life leaves one ripe for picking by a pseudo-Christian con artist... It may be a simple thing but I was really impressed and inspired to open the Bible after seeing folks my own age and with no formal training, teach from the Bible at Twig. Granted, their teachings were just regurgitated wierwille stuff and there’s a lot of things that I no longer agree with now – but at the time, that initial experience of seeing them read and teach from the Bible...and that it made sense to my uniformed mind...and that it didn't appear to be some mysterious or difficult thing for them to do that, really got me…AND I admired their dive-right-in attitude...they seemed to have had a vision and a method down pat. So it wasn’t that TWI activated my faith which was already there, being raised in a Christian home – but TWI got me started in a new phase of my journey – having a vision and a plan…a method…So I began using THEIR one-map-fits-all…Since I left TWI I’ve come to realize how important it is to fully engage my reasoning and emotions as I continue to revise MY OWN map...Yes, I learned some good stuff while in TWI - but what dwarfs all that is what I learned after I left TWI - that it's important for me to take an active role in developing my belief system, personal priorities and worldview and not just accept without question a certain mindset that's handed to me …in a way, my Grease Spot experience is kind of a reverse of my early Twig experience. Now I tend to think reading and understanding so much of the Bible is perhaps even more difficult than what I was led to believe in TWI – with their pat answers, and the weird combo of fundamentalism and wierwille’s egocentric theology. I love the freedom to think that's encouraged at Grease Spot and the freedom to reflect and consider the perspectives of others; And, somewhat like my early Twig experience it has taken some of the mystery out of “philosophizing” on my journey - that it's okay to actually think and have a lot of questions and doubts... to enjoy life and appreciate the folks that cross my path... there’s a lot more latitude in my thoughts and feelings and of course much more self-direction when it comes to how I process stuff and revise my map. And it’s not just when reading the Bible but reading or thinking about anything else. == == == Thanks Skyrider, WordWolf and Socks – I have always wondered how they got from pursuing the goal of word over the world to the prevailing word… so remember kids, in a make-believe world anything can happen....anyway, great stuff in your posts - - and I wanted an excuse to add my 2 cents

In retrospect – I’ve often peered through the fog of love-bombing, bait-and-switch tactics, being managed by fear and guilt, and all the other methods TWI used - and still uses - to ensnare and retain followers. For me the one lie that stands out above all others is the lie that facilitated more deceptions; it was the lie that God audibly spoke to wierwille and promised to teach him “The Word”. That was perhaps at the core of my belief system – and like the tough central part of some fruit, it contained the seeds for a variety of strains (other lies) that hide or distort the truth – one of which is self-deception. At first, being young and naïve I fell for wierwille’s lie hook, line, and sinker. I was totally fooled by wierwille. But as time went on and the reality of life experiences continued to threaten the validity of my belief system – self-deception probably took over at some point. That’s when I got in the habit of fooling myself. wierwille’s charisma and mishmash of plagiarism, fundamentalism, and magical thinking might get you started down the rabbit hole but in the long run all that can almost take on a life of its own in our minds – if we do not have enough courage to acknowledge reality, expose the lies and deal with the consequences…so I’d rationalize that something didn’t work out for me because of my lack of believing…If I found myself questioning something wierwille taught or doubting his persona I’d squelch that thought as me just going by my five senses… Fooling yourself can only go so far…I tend to think that if something is not based on reality it will eventually run out of steam…For 12 years I invested so much time, money and energy into TWI and yet I had so little to show for all my hard work and efforts…and even more frustrating than that was having no real sense of fulfillment. All that altruistic and heavenly rewards bull$hit I bought into – of helping others by getting them to take the PFAL class (getting them started on the great hamster wheel journey), of giving my all for the ministry – it all started to sound so hollow. Even the issue of the way corps program’s use of sleep deprivation as part of the indoctrination process was side-stepped by Craig or corps coordinators by saying “you can sleep all you want when you’re in heaven.” WordWolf mentioned Gnosticism. One of the most disturbing aspects of TWI’s brand of Gnosticism was wierwille’s extreme distortions of the teachings of Paul on the conflict between flesh and spirit. From what I’ve read, in the ancient world Gnosticism had somewhat of a dualistic philosophy – that basically the mind and the body were two radically different things. Some adherents of Gnosticism branched off into asceticism while others got into libertinism. (see Wikipedia - Gnosticism Carpocrates and libertinism in the Bible -- also refer to my previous post about antinomianism ) Basically all the branches taught that matter (or “the flesh”) was evil and impossible to salvage…so it’s not that far-fetched to see that the next logical step might be to think that if the flesh is totally incorrigible then why even bother trying to correct or reform it. I think wierwille latched onto the libertine flavor of Gnosticism – which tends to water-down boundaries, reject authority and ignore the ethics of social mores. It began with wierwille’s teaching of all sin is the same before God, that there are no degrees of sin. However Scripture does indicate that all sin is not equal if you look at the consequences to self and others as well as the appropriate punishment meted out – see Matthew 11: 20-24 Luke 12: 47, 48 John 19:11 . “Sin” became somewhat of an antiquated word in TWI – and in its place “broken fellowship” was used. This tends to blunt the seriousness of sin. “broken fellowship” softens the idea of a serious offense against God Almighty and having such a lackadaisical attitude may never lead one to godly sorrow and repent from some sinful behavior…so to summarize wierwille theology on sin: sins of the flesh – no big deal…besides the flesh is something you can’t save anyway – so party on… ...now putting this altogether about the New Knoxville Gnostic consider the following. I remember when wierwille showed his favorite doggie-porn video to our family corps – afterwards his words to those who were shocked, stunned, embarrassed and offended were “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me.” One of wierwille’s go-to verses that reflected his self-deceptive rationalization of bad behavior was Romans 14:22 “Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.” However, if you look at the context of Romans 14 , you will see it’s in reference to religious ceremonies, holidays and rituals – and that a mature strong Christian should not carelessly flaunt their liberty in those areas since it might cause a weak believer to stumble…it does NOT grant cult leaders license to use the Bible to cloak their hypocrisy and do things like drug and then sexually molest women – there’s lots of threads on Grease Spot about that. So what’s the greatest secret in way-world today? That wierwille pulled off a big snow job on followers. But that’s no secret on Grease Spot.

I'm not a real actor but I play one on TV.

Thanks Raf & Greasy Tech !!!!!! Maybe I forgot and left my pictures there when I was pilfering borrowing some coffee beans - sometimes the coffee at the counter is a bit weak - - anyway thanks again !!!!!! Sometimes it takes a greasy tech to make a squeaky wheel calm the f___ down.