T-Bone

Funny you should say that…one of wierwille’s favorite sources to plagiarize was E.W. Bullinger…I noticed this a while back when I looked up some details about him…About halfway down the page on Wikipedia’s article on Bullinger under the heading of “Other Bullinger Views” it says: “...He was a member of the Universal Zetetic Society, a group dedicated to believing and promoting the idea that the earth is flat, and on 7 March 1905, he chaired a meeting in Exeter Hall, London, in which the flat earth theory was expounded.” wierwille may have thought Bullinger was on the cutting edge of biblical research in his day…but maybe he was just afraid to go near the edge of a flat earth. Wah wah…unfortunately I’m here all week folks.

Mark, Have you thought of publishing it as an eBook? I’ve put a couple of how-to links below. I can’t give you any advice on which way to go since I’ve never published anything – but as an end-user (I like to read books ) I tend to buy eBooks more than printed books. I know my wife appreciates the fact that our home doesn’t look like a book hoarder’s convention . Seriously though, I like the convenience and portability of eBooks since I have some study Bibles, commentaries, and Bible encyclopedias on my Kindle and iPhone Kindle App…You sound like you’ve done a lot of the footwork towards publishing and may just as well do both – paperback and eBook. an eBook publishing guide how to publish an eBook

I’m a bit of an eclectic myself – so I too think drawing from various perspectives is a more thoughtful approach. But one of the problems with the PFAL foundational class was that wierwille did NOT do the work to analyze, develop, refine, expand and improve on the work of others. Though he claimed that in the authorized book on The Way International “The Way Living in Love” as well as on other occasions – saying he taught nothing new but simply pieced together what he learned from others and with God’s guidance made it accurate in the process. That doesn’t pass the sniff test in my book – it fails on numerous counts. He repeated some of the same dubious topics from Bullinger – like ultra-dispensationalism (wierwille re-named it “administrations”) and the supposed four crucified with Jesus Christ; In my opinion wierwille actually mangled one of Bullinger’s strongest topics – the keys to the interpretation of scripture. Explaining II Peter 1:20, 21 KJV in “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says “no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation” uses a genitive of origin (“of ”) and refers to how we got the scriptures ( other versions do a better job of clarifying that see II Peter 1:20, 21 NET and II Peter 1:20, 21 NIV ). So it does NOT refer to the interpretation of the scriptures but how they came to be written – wierwille twisted that verse around to essentially mean no one is free to interpret the Bible all on their own , and then he actually said the Bible interprets itself - which is basically an affront to logic, linguistics, translators, interpreters, real bible scholars and even students of The Bible. I don’t think wierwille was competent enough to analyze anyone else’s ideas let alone critique or extrapolate on them. And even if he was an accomplished researcher and teacher – I think the PFAL material might have had some merit if he would have cited his sources, given a critique on their strong and weak points and then presented his case on why his synthesis was better…I have a modest collection of commentaries and some authors do just that. They might refer to another commentary by someone else who said “that passage means this” and then they go on to present their case for their own alternate understanding of the same passage by using the biblical languages, context, logic, etc.

Ha ! I’m way ahead of you my dear sensei – after you had recently recommended it to Laura T on the Houston in the 70s thread – I ordered a new copy from Amazon – The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self - it’s the 25th anniversary edition, January 2005 (Bolen explains why the longer title in the newer edition - "synchronicity" was an unfamiliar term years ago). Have already started reading it…easy read...great stuff!

Thanks for posting that, Annio. I read about this stuff in a CNN article February of 2021. I’ve watched about 6 minutes of it just now but will get back to this later since I have a lot of errands to run today. It’s a shame the Internet wasn’t around in wierwille’s heyday… Thank God for Grease Spot Café and the Me Too Movement that pulls back the curtain to expose $hit like this!

Thanks, Annio and the same to you!!!

That’s funny and scary – since it’s on a thread discussing best horror and Halloween movies…imagine right in the middle of a Dracula movie, the vampire-hunter turns to the camera, holds up a fancy bejeweled cross and says “I buy all my crucifixes at Saint Alphonsus’ Catholic Supply House at 3645 Main Street ”.

First off thanks to Rocky for recommending “Love Wins” and also to everyone who commented on this thread – there’s a lot of good stuff!…I have to say I have not read such a thought-provoking book in a long time. And the oddly surprising thing about it was that I’m very familiar with the passages Bell gets into and I’ve even speculated along the lines of a few things he brought up. I’m just a casual Bible student and not in the same league as Bell being a deep-thinking and articulate pastor and author – so there’s something definitely uncanny when I come across someone who much more fluently and coherently expresses some things that have crossed my mind. One of the biggest things to hit me from the book was how relatable God is as our loving heavenly father. As a loving parent I would never give up on my kids – no matter what. Even if they became the most notorious criminals in the world – of course I would want them to pay their debt to society and hope for their rehabilitation while in prison – but regardless they’re still my kids – there’s something of me in them – I will always love them and care about their well-being. Bell’s book got me asking myself “Is God any less than that?”… It seems pretty clear to me from chapter 3 on Hell that with all the Old Testament passages, God’s intention has always been redemption, healing and restoration. The thing that really blew my mind was in chapter 4, when Bell points out Revelation 21:25 which says the gates to the eternal city will never be closed. People are free to come and go. That does not address the question will everybody be saved? But it does suggest God’s unfathomable love in designing a new world of freedom. God is love – and that is something you can’t demand from another – because true love gives freedom – so even in the next life we are free to choose whatever we want. The gates always remain open. If someone wants in - they can come in. If someone wants out - they can leave. If someone doesn’t want in - they can stay out. And to be realistic about freedom - as cool as heaven might sound – it stands to reason that some folks who willfully choose to live in a personal hell of their own design in this life may very well desire more of the same in the next. Maybe that’s what Revelation 22: 14 & 15 is talking about – of those outside the city – I don’t know – just speculating here. Another chapter that really excited was chapter 6 – There Are Rocks Everywhere. It made me think there is some kind of permeant quality about Jesus Christ – that he has penetrated every cultural, even if the Gospel has not reached there yet. Bell talks about missionaries who have traveled to the farthest reaches of the globe and people there hearing of Jesus for the first time. They respond “That’s his name? We’ve been talking about him for years.” Bell references John 14 - where Jesus said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” I was flabbergasted to read Bell’s comments on that: “What he doesn’t say is how, or why, or in what manner the mechanism functions that gets people to God through him. He doesn’t even state that those coming to the Father through him will even know that they are coming exclusively through him. He simply claims that whatever God is doing in the world to know and redeem and love and restore the world is happening through him.” That makes me want to rethink what I know of other religions and cultures. It kinda makes sense to me that if God is so loving and wants to give everyone a chance, then he wouldn’t set up some exclusive venue with limited access. Romans 2 does seem to suggest that the requirements of the law are written on everyone’s heart, our consciences providing testimony and God will judge everyone through Jesus Christ. “Everyone” means everyone. Over the years my wife and I have had many discussions to try and expand our horizons beyond some of the narrow concepts we’ve been taught – she'll probably read “Love Wins” too, since I've talked about some of the book with her. And lastly, I’ve mentioned on a few other threads my fascination with superstring theory and extra dimensions. Bell uses it as a springboard to suggest Jesus’ talk of the kingdom of God as being an all-pervasive dimension of being, that was here, at hand, right now. Basically that was Jesus’ answer when the Pharisees asked him when the kingdom was coming - see Luke 17: 20 & 21 . Something like this always makes me wonder about the nature of the spiritual realm. I usually think of it as something distinctly not me…really another dimension and perhaps a place far away from me. But in superstring theory multidimensional particles could be compacted and folded up inside each other – and as far as we know nonexistent compared to our experience of only 3 dimensions and the passage of time… …And I guess if one could control how multidimensional particles are compressed and rolled up – then it would be possible to change the properties or characteristics of something. Makes me think of the city bending scene in the dream sequences of the movie Inception and the manipulation of reality scene in the movie Dr. Strange ...And probably the movie that comes closest to describing a world within a world is the scene of a futuristic city popping up in the middle of an open field in the movie Midnight Special (happens at about 2:15 minutes into the You Tube clip). Indeed some passages like II Peter 3:10 and Revelation 6: 12 - 17 that talk about the heavens disappearing with a roar, the elements destroyed by fire and the sky being split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up fires my imagination of what might happen on a cosmic scale… ...The majority of books I’ve read and scripture that I’ve studied have always reminded me of a transcendent God. Bell’s book got me to think about the immanence of God in the comprehensive and eternal work of Jesus Christ in all people in all situations. Something Bell said about God’s love near the end of the book seemed to circle back to superstring theory (the “stuff” of extra-dimensions curled up into a compact space) – but His love is not static or diminutive in any way – “the indestructible love of God is an unfolding, dynamic reality and that every single one of us is endlessly being invited to trust, accept, believe, embrace, and experience it.”

sorry I'm not familiar with that either...have you tried searching the Internet?

Is it Heat ?

Welcome to Grease Spot, Laura ! Thanks for sharing your story - and parts of it I can relate to – probably a lot of other folks as well – especially the “developed a strong sense of listening to my inner guidance thing” you said; is it self-determination? Or whatever it is, I think it’s some vital ingredient for our mental well-being – where we feel we’re in control of our own destiny and not following the dictates of some organization… I got out of TWI in 1986 but it took quit a few years afterwards for me get a lot of the TWI-mindset out of my head. Being an RN has gotta be extra rough during the pandemic – you are a brave and caring soul – all the “war stories” I hear on the news from doctors and nurses on the front lines just worries me to death – how long is this going to go on? My wife and I are both retired and we got our second dose of Moderna recently…I’m still concerned about folks getting “battle fatigue” and not following CDC guidelines – since some states are calling off the mask mandate and letting businesses open to full capacity. Anyway it’s good to hear about your life. We don’t go to any fellowships or a church – if anything we might listen to some preacher on TV – we usually prefer the no-nonsense type who preach on the basic Christian tenets.

that's some good points JohnJ !!!!

Welcome to Grease Spot, Grace and Mercy ! I love your comprehensive and expressive story – thanks for sharing. You’re right, there were a lot of good folks trying to walk with God and serve others – and your last line “That the organization still exists is a wonder to me” made me re-think the upheaval of 1986 after the reading of The Passing of the Patriarch. A common analogy on Grease Spot often draws a comparison to some dedicated folks rearranging the deck chairs on the sinking Titanic. But in actuality this TWI-tanic never sank. So the survivors got off and returned to the real world to resume normal lives and the ship of fools remains adrift in an ocean of cultic nonsense. Another thing that got me was you mentioning a redacted version of the passing of the patriarch in TWI’s bookstore. That made me think of the Seinfeld episode where Elaine supposedly yada yada’d over the best part - click here > Elaine did not yada yada over the best part

Okay, I think I understand your concern. I really don’t see “the red thread” as a TWI doctrine per se, as far as the concept goes – Jesus Christ symbolized in every book of the Bible. Perhaps wierwille merely slapped the title “the red thread” on Roberts’ “fourth man” teaching. Does that make it a TWI doctrine? I always thought “the red thread” was a cool title that really captured the imagination – and it seemed to have the same effect on your discussion group. I think it would be a fun thing to explore in your group – but that’s just me. I found a similar idea while googling “the red thread” – it’s “the scarlet thread running through the Bible”: Theologians and Bible students sometimes refer to “the scarlet thread running through the Bible.” By this they mean that the Bible’s theme is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for the redemption of mankind. The blood of Christ runs throughout the entire Bible, symbolically. It is seen in the animals killed in Eden to provide garments for Adam and Eve, the ram that took Isaac’s place on the altar of Moriah, the Passover lamb, the institution of the sacrificial system, the scarlet rope of Rahab, and the thousands of years of sacrifices performed at the tabernacle and temple. The scarlet thread runs all the way up to John the Baptist’s declaration, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) and to the foot of the cross, where Jesus finally says, “It is finished” (John 19:30). “Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Hebrews 9:22), and that’s why the symbolism of the scarlet thread in the Bible is significant. The scarlet thread is the theme of atonement found throughout the pages of Scripture. from: What is the significance of the scarlet thread in the Bible? As a side note I came across “the red thread of fate” - - “also referred to as the Red Thread of Marriage, and other variants, is an East Asian belief originating from Chinese mythology. It is commonly thought of as an invisible red cord around the finger of those that are destined to meet one another in a certain situation as they are "their true love"…The two people connected by the red thread are destined lovers, regardless of place, time, or circumstances. This magical cord may stretch or tangle, but never break. This myth is similar to the Western concept of soulmate or a destined partner.” From Wikipedia - the red thread of fate …I thought this was interesting and started playing with the idea of Jesus Christ as figuratively the Red Thread – who I was destined to meet regardless of place, time or circumstances – this Scarlet Cord would stretch and tangle through the space-time continuum but never break.

Hi Twinky, is part of your concern ex-Wafers or other sites do not give proper credit to the source of their list? I can understand that…but as far as variations on the list I think there’s a lot of leeway because how one understands the Bible depends on how one interprets it. That goes for doctrine too – more on that in a little bit. As an example of another variation of listing Jesus represented in each book of the Bible – I have a book by Henrietta Mears (the book jacket states Mears trained, influenced or inspired thousands of young men and women to serve in Christian ministry including Billy Graham and Campus Crusade for Christ founders Bill and Vonette Bright) it’s titled What the Bible is All About …It’s an easy read and occasionally I read it with my daughter…anyway – I thought you might like a comparison of a few titles of Oral Roberts’ list to Henrietta Mears’ “list” – which are really the chapter heading for her giving a brief explanation of each book in the Bible…and this is just a brief random sampling: The book of Genesis: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the seed of the woman Henrietta Mears: Genesis portrays Jesus Christ, Our Creator God The book of Exodus: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Passover Lamb Henrietta Mears: Exodus portrays Jesus Christ, Our Passover Lamb The book of Numbers: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night Henrietta Mears: Numbers portrays Jesus Christ, Our “Lifted-up One” The book of Psalms: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is our Shepherd Henrietta Mears: Psalms portrays Jesus Christ as our All in All The book of Ezekiel: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the wonderful four-faced man Henrietta Mears: Jesus Christ is portrayed as the Son of Man The Book of Daniel: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the fourth man in the fiery furnace Henrietta Mears: Daniel portrays Jesus Christ, the Smiting Stone The book of Matthew: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Messiah Henrietta Mears: Matthew portrays Jesus Christ as the Promised Messiah The book of Acts: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Holy Ghost Henrietta Mears: Jesus Christ is portrayed as the Living Lord The book of Hebrews: Oral Roberts: Jesus Christ is the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant Henrietta Mears: Jesus Christ is portrayed as Our Intercessor at the Throne As you can see there are some JC portrayals where Roberts and Mears are similar and some where they differ – and by the way, to give Roberts some more credit – if you looked at the link I gave in a previous post – he adds a lot of other portrayals found in Scripture after he completes the by-each-book-of-the-Bible list… And actually I don’t have a problem with either interpretation. The thing I like about Mears’ book is that she devoted several pages of a chapter with scriptural references for each book of the Bible and how each book specifically portrays Jesus Christ. == == == == == As I mentioned earlier, I wanted to mention something about doctrine as it relates to the interpretation of Scripture. Over the years since I left TWI I’ve accumulated several systematic theologies – I think I’m up to 11 now – and I made it a point to select authors from various viewpoints – Evangelicals and subsets like Fundamentalism, Charismatic, Modernism, Liberal, etc. I value different perspectives and find things of merit in all. One of my favorite authors on theological stuff is Alister McGrath . On pages 28 and 29 of his book Understanding Doctrine McGrath states the following: “A helpful way of thinking of the relation of doctrine to Scripture, probably suggested by a growing Victorian public interest in botanical gardens, was put forward by the nineteenth-century Scottish writer Thomas Guthrie. Guthrie argued that Scripture is like nature, in which flowers and plants grow freely in their natural habitat, unordered by human hands. The human desire for orderliness leads to these plants being collected and arranged in botanical gardens according to their species, in order that they can be individually studied in more detail. The same plants are found in different contexts – one of which is natural, the other of which is the result of human ordering. Doctrine represents the human attempt to order the ideas of Scripture, arranging them in a logical manner in order that their mutual relation can be better understood.” End of excerpt == == == I think I’ve referred to this McGrath quote a couple of times before on Grease Spot, because it excites me as a student of the Bible to be aware of there being more than one interpretation of Scripture and to appreciate the viewpoints of others.

From what I remember wierwille did use many of Robert’s descriptions – but you know it wouldn’t take a whole lot of work to find alternates; At the time of wierwille’s teaching on tape – our Twig got really excited about it; one lady in our Twig was curious as to where in the Bible wierwille got these descriptions; that put me "on the spot" as the Twig leader – as a former TWI-study-bug I took that as a challenge and with the help of Young’s Concordance to the Bible I found scriptural references for all those titles besides alternate descriptions/passages – I gave her my handwritten homework-for-extra-credit. The point is wierwille probably didn’t need much more than a concordance and I imagine he had a general knowledge of the scope of The Bible anyway...I tend to think there might be something to the idea that you'll find Jesus Christ everywhere in The Bible - after all he is The Word...if anything wierwille might have changed some descriptions so as to cover his tracks on plagiarism...it was a pretty exciting teaching though - I remember some leadership in our state memorized the Red Thread and would quote it verbatim during a teaching.

From what I remember Oral Robert's teaching might have been originally titled The Fourth Man - keying off the account in Daniel 3 - Roberts asked "who was that fourth man?" ...from Daniel 3 verse 25 "He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”...ESV I found it in written form here: The Fourth Man by Oral Roberts

George, if you remember a while back on this thread, that's an issue I have...so the only option I have now is to use a URL link to a picture...if you figure it out - let me know.

It's on Disney +

Yes ! and what is the quicksilver dude from X-Men doing there?!?! The only thing that bugs me is the source of the old sitcoms references – I mean I really enjoyed what they did with the sitcom references – and I could tell something ominous was coming with the out of context details injected here and there …but…up until episode 4, I was thinking the actual situation might involve both of them in some weird therapeutic stasis, and Wanda’s ability to alter reality providing a “medium” – I say both because it seems logical to me the sitcoms were from Vision – since he is partly from Tony’s AI Jarvis …Wanda is from Sokovia (I think) but then again those old shows probably aired over in Europe anyway – and in episode 4, the lady ejected from “the bubble” said it’s all Wanda…anyway… to answer your question again – my mind is blown by every episode !

Hi Annio… …what a courageous and honest post !!! …somehow I missed this thread - so I just wanted to add my 2 cents now… You got me thinking about a few of ways that a double standard played out in TWI. A double standard is a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people than to another group. One aspect of the double standard in TWI is the misogynistic tendencies as you mentioned. In the bigger picture as we all know, this is something not just confined to TWI – but at least in the outside world there have been some brave survivors coming forth and things like the me too movement to raise awareness and empathy and to advocate changes to laws and policies. I don’t ever see that happening in TWI. Another aspect of TWI’s double standard that you and others have touched upon is the role that gender plays in determining one’s “status” within the group and how others should relate to them. Again this is not something peculiar to TWI… “Some believe that differences in the way men and women are perceived and treated is a function of social norms, thus indicating a double standard. One claim is that a double standard exists in society's judgment of women's and men's sexual conduct. Research has found that casual sexual activity is regarded as more acceptable for men than for women” from Wikipedia - double standard And perhaps a third aspect of the double standard in TWI is a more general application of religious-grade hypocrisy – how cult leaders exercise control over followers…see Matthew 23 and II Peter 2 . Those passages lead me to believe maybe the problem isn’t always with a particular doctrine but rather how TWI puts it into practice – and even further, to what degree they enforce compliance. “Doctrine is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a given branch of knowledge or in a belief system. Practice is the actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method, as opposed to theories relating to it.” From Quora - what is the difference between doctrine and practice In my opinion there’s one big thing that sets apart an abusive religious cult like TWI from other groups. It’s not really about the sixteen thousandth teaching of “You Are Righteous Now” - although I do tend to think some teachings like that can squelch one’s conscience when genuine repentance might be a more appropriate topic. The telltale signs of an abusive and controlling cult are the methods and tactics they employ to instill and reinforce certain ideas and attitudes. I don’t believe the average Way-believer who has never seen anything more than the local fellowship, can really “appreciate” the intense indoctrination process of the way corps program. I thought it was going to be a college-level education in the Bible and shepherding the flock - you know, maybe along the lines of a seminary only much better cuz it was all based on "The Word" - - and I've even heard some corps refer to it as something like the school of the prophets mentioned in the Old Testament I Samuel 19 II Kings 2 and II Kings 4 (some translations refer to them as the school of the prophets, a group of prophets, the company of prophets, or sons of the prophets ) ... But it was more along the lines of a glorified PFAL catechism – with the student body being corralled to think in terms of predetermined questions and answers – - what does it say in PFAL about this or that? we were drilled to know all the material of PFAL frontwards and backwards...we were often randomly called upon to give 5 minute teachings during one of the three meals in the dining room - and then we were critiqued right on the spot afterward; fyi - the teachings that quoted verbatim - with very little deviation - from one of the PFAL books received the highest praise and little or no criticism - I $hit you not! Among other things what really “helped me absorb” this "doctrine" was the sleep deprivation, the work program (cheap labor - often busy-work and usually a big time-waster), the occasional tongue-lashing , being singled out for public ridicule over some minor infraction - after all details are important to God - - and the ever popular threat to throw your a$$ out the door if you didn’t comply with some directive. What is the point of all that? I’ll tell you - in case you didn’t click on the above link to Matthew 23 – I’ll quote verse 15 of it here “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.” ....I think ideally the way corps program was designed to make little clones of wierwille. On a side note – if I felt compelled to address doctrine - the biggest issue I have with TWI’s fundamentalist point of view is that it is more than just your typical strict literal interpretation of the Bible (and brushing aside any dubious teachings like the 4 crucified, the unforgiveable sin = being born again of the wrong seed, etc.) TWI’s brand of fundamentalism is also infused with magical thinking which is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects – “the law of believing” comes to mind. Another thing you mentioned Annio, at the end of your post really resonated with me. You reflected on the good stuff you got out of your TWI experience. I think that’s a healthy way to deal with life. To NOT paint everything in broad strokes - but to think more deeply about experiences - to learn from mistakes and failures and to cherish any wins. I met my wife in TWI – besides meeting a lot of good people - and that’s where I first learned to enjoy reading the Bible. It makes me think of the duality of life – which is made up of so many different and sometimes opposite elements. That’s reality. One of the many reasons why life in the way corps was often an uphill battle for me was the heavy-handed pressure from top leadership to ignore or even deny reality. I was never salaried by TWI – so my wife and I worked regular jobs ( besides all the responsibilities we had of running a branch or area, running classes and coordinating advances, witnessing, under-shepherding, getting teachings together, counseling, visiting Twigs all over town…and in different towns…with a kid in tow ) and we made our money stretch a long way for the cost of living…sometimes coming up short since we had it drummed into our heads as corps that abundant sharing was the highest priority when budgeting finances. Over the course of some 34 years since I left TWI, I’ve learned that acceptance of reality is a lot easier than a denial of reality. Back in the day, I wasted more time and energy spinning my wheels listening to teachings on believing, making positive affirmations, conjuring up believing images of victory to try and make something happen. I’m not saying be a pushover in life. Acceptance takes some guts to acknowledge what I cannot change or what is beyond my control - but also to step up to the plate when I can do something that’s within my power. Acceptance is how we look at ourselves and others. And rather than have hostility or fear toward someone who is different from me – though I sometimes falter at that – I think it’s better to be tolerant – even open and honest to find common ground – and yes, I still have a long way to go on that one too. Acceptance is being at peace with my own imperfections and failures and not beating myself up every time I fail or disappoint myself. I think what goes along with that is to be thankful for the ordinary things in life – I’ve got a roof over my head, I have food in the pantry, I have a family and friends who accept me as I am - warts and all. I think that stuff keeps me grounded. *** bonus feature on the duality of life: Skyrider started a thread a while back - cult survivors and the duality of life ***

Yes ! And when I went through the corps training program I even gave them other people’s money - from my corps sponsors.

Hi Francisco, Wow – you’ve done some serious reading! I have a few other books by E.W. Bullinger , including The Companion Bible - something I still refer to on occasion. . Another Bullinger book I have is How to Enjoy the Bible , and btw, wierwille plagiarized from that book quite a bit! Since I left TWI, I’ve come to a different opinion of Bullinger’s body of work – though it all may sometimes have some helpful technical details, I don’t agree with his ultra-dispensationalism or his sometimes mystical interpretation methods. Also I think Bullinger got so fixated on some ideas he couldn’t see the forest for the trees – for example in appendix 164 “The “Others” Crucified with the Lord” in The Companion Bible (again, one of the many things wierwille plagiarized), Bullinger presents a case that there were 4 crucified with Jesus. Something I now find tone deaf to the most important aspect of the crucifixion – that Jesus Christ the Son of God was crucified and died for our sins. Besides the fact that Bullinger confuses and confabulates the narrative and vocabulary of several different witnesses (the four Gospels) – I tend to think Bullinger presents a false dilemma – something that wierwille also capitalized on – to entice people to follow them so that readers will know what “The Word” really says – thus making their “services” seem necessary. Besides a simple internet searching of the earliest art depictions of the crucifixion scene (which I’ve found go back to about the 3rd century) and if they do show others crucified with Jesus - it's only two; Even a thorough reading of each Gospel (take your pick of any language, version or translation) and assuming the Gospel writers had the word “four” in their vocabulary, as well as being familiar with the mathematical concept of four - there is nothing in the complete narrative of each Gospel to suggest the idea of four people being crucified with Jesus. I think Bullinger’s case is laughable. John Juedes (whom you’re familiar with) has a couple of good brief articles analyzing Bullinger’s and wierwille’s contrived solution to an imaginary problem - click on links here contradictory definitions of allos & heteros and here Were Four Men Crucified with Christ? You may have already read those – so I’ll list them here anyway for the benefit of others... I think Bullinger and wierwille may have had some dubious notion that God hid certain details and was waiting for biblical cryptologists to decipher the code. yeah right - I think they ignored the fact that the Gospels were compiled – which means they were assembled from several sources – this is clearly indicated in Luke 1 “Since many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word…” Here are some interesting articles that speculate on how the Gospels were formed - click on links here here and here And one more thing – when I first took the PFAL class in 1974, I fell for wierwille’s argument that there must be four crucified because both thieves mocked Jesus in Matthew 27: 44 but in Luke 23: 39 - 42 one of the malefactors repents – so must be four people crucified with Jesus, right? Nope ! Besides “thieves” and “malefactors” being just about similar in N.T. Greek as in English (“malefactor” is a criminal, wrongdoer, lawbreaker…”thief” is a criminal, robber, burglar) and each individual eyewitness might in their own words describe the same incident a little differently than someone else , one should also consider the possibility that one of the thieves who mocked Jesus in Matthew 27 was also the malefactor who had a change of heart in Luke 23. Sometimes people do that when they’re lying at death’s door. If you need something to cinch this straight forward interpretation of there being only two crucified with Jesus then you might find helpful The NIV Integrated Study Bible: A New Chronological Approach for Exploring Scripture, John R. Kohlenberger III editor , which offers a parallel or “synoptic” approach to the Gospels – all four Gospels are arranged parallel across the pages to retain the unique structure and context of each Gospel. In my opinion it reads much more naturally and logically than the piecemeal nonlinear narrative that Bullinger (and wierwille) offered. If I had to bring up some important side issue of who else was crucified with Jesus, I would cite Galatians 2: 20 and say I was! Like I said I have some of Bullinger’s books. And believe it or not I still have all of wierwille’s books. I’m not one to tell people what books to read or ignore. But I do encourage people to read with their critical thinking skills fully engaged. I’ve also found that wierwille’s body of work does not hold up very well upon closer scrutiny. Getting back to the biggest issue - it’s important to point out to TWI followers the seriousness of wierwille’s plagiarism (some of those threads I gave links to in my previous post touch on the many aspects of that). The two biggest takeaways that should shock any TWI follower who would care to listen to reason - are that wierwille claimed all the plagiarized material was the result of his own hard work, diligent study, research and experience and that if you saw any semblance of material “borrowed” from other authors, wierwille would claim that it was actually sanctioned by God who personally taught him how to accurately piece together the work of others to produce the integrity and accuracy of “The Word”. Needless to say, it is ironic to point out that if God sanctioned that – He basically gave wierwille a free pass to break two of the commandments – thou shall not lie and thou shall not steal. That makes wierwille a charlatan and a hypocrite. I would also recommend another book – which I found helpful in my continued study of the Bible and in deconstructing some of the deceptive tactics of TWI’s doctrine – it’s Scripture Twisting: 20 Ways the Cults Misread the Bible by James Sire . As I mentioned in my previous post, people base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source and so your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted. And probably a preliminary step to that might be easing your family member toward the ideas that there are false prophets and teachers in the world, how to identify them, and how good unsuspecting Christians can be fooled by them. One of the toughest pills to swallow is the realization that one has been duped. As I said earlier, helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part - so walk softly and carry a big heart when someone is willing to listen and open up to you. I’ll give you a couple of passages from the Bible Gateway website – the first reference is the NIV English translation, the other one is in a Spanish translation. You might find this website helpful in your studies – you type in the book or passage in the upper left window and click on the pulldown box on the right for the version you want. So, to go along with the warnings of false prophets and teachers, identifying them and how TWI has ravaged followers see: Matthew 7 and Mateo 7 .... II Peter 2 and 2 Pedro 2 There’s a few other books I would recommend – books by people who left TWI: Undertow by Charlene Edge - the author goes by Penworks here on Grease Spot; she worked in TWI's research department and her book is a firsthand account of wierwille's tactics of control - even to the point of pressuring the research department to twist the interpretation of a verse to suit his agenda. Losing the Way: A Memoir of Spiritual Longing, Manipulation, Abuse, and Escape by Kristen Skedgell The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Into The Way International by Karl Kahler (currently unavailable) - I listed this book as well in case it becomes available again in the future i wish you and your family the best love and peace T-Bone

Hi Francisco, It sounds to me like you’ve really done your homework, and now hopefully you can boil all that down to bite-size digestible nuggets of truth and facts. If you can manage English (with or without the help of a translator) you might find useful some threads on Grease Spot for historical, timeline or topic-specific references – to help organize your thoughts and prepare you to help your family. Recently another newcomer to Grease Spot talked about a similar concern – dating someone who is involved in TWI. One of Grease Spot’s “old timers” (WordWolf) replied to them saying you can’t really understand TWI without trying to understand the founder and its first president victor paul wierwille. Below I have provided a few links to WordWolf’s posts – which in themselves have a bunch more links for you to peruse. I think he does a great job of chronicling all things TWI. I was involved in The Way International for some 12 years – I left the cult in 1986. I went through their missionary program (W.O.W.) and their leadership training program (the way corps). My reasons for leaving are many – and it all was on a “slow simmer” for several years while I was in – but it boiled over in 1986 – all my questions and doubts came to a head. That was when the founding president (wierwille) passed away and the power-struggles of some upper leadership ensued – which made me reevaluate what they taught me and got me to look more into their true nature from a variety of perspectives – which sounds like what you did (checking out books and John Juedes) kudos to you my friend. From my own experience I’ve found that helping someone else escape a rabbit hole will involve a lot of patience, understanding, empathy, honesty and respect on your part (as one who has already escaped the rabbit hole). I believe it’s important to promote critical thinking. I am still a Christian even after leaving TWI…and sometimes on Grease Spot I like to express the idea that TWI is essentially parasitic – relying on exploiting others – whether it’s plagiarism, twisting Scripture to suit their own agenda and moral depravity or taking advantage of followers in so many ways. Even at its most basic level, TWI is indeed a parasite of lies that NEEDS some truth in order to survive. Check out Jesus Christ exercising critical thinking in Luke 4 to counter the devil’s twisted use of Scripture. We often can help others escape TWI when we point out some obvious difference between a truth and a lie…some obvious difference between some fact and TWI’s fictionalized version of it. Rather than throw everything all at once at your family – take some time to analyze your own journey out of TWI. What stuff, teachings or experiences caused you to question or doubt? Bottom line is that you really can’t force anyone to see through the religious façade of TWI. But you can point out some chinks in their supposed armor of credibility – like going over the plagiarism or fabrications and embellishments of events (using the details from threads listed below) – hopefully that will lodge some questions and doubts in their minds – which may act like an electrical charge to stimulate the atrophied critical thinking "muscles"…People base their beliefs on what they think is a trusted source. Your task is to offer reasons why TWI should NOT be trusted. Good luck Francisco - you asked some great questions – and welcome to Grease Spot Love & peace T-Bone == == == == These links below may help you investigate further (the links below are to posts that have a bunch more links); also take advantage of the search engine in the top right section of the webpage – just type in a topic and get familiar with how this website is laid out. understanding TWI by understanding vpw vpw’s failed promises, plagiarism, timelines and eyewitnesses more info from eyewitnesses. == == == Sorry I don’t speak your language…btw, I really enjoyed watching Toy Story 3 with my daughter the other day. There’s one scene where they press a factory reset button for too long on the back of Buzz Lightyear and he started talking in Spanish – and fortunately for me the movie had subtitles when he talked – I loved it! They even had the Toy Story theme song “You’ve Got A Friend in Me” in Spanish at the end of the movie. end of Toy Story 3 - song "You've Got A Friend in Me" in Spanish

you are correct - Vanilla Sky ! a little know fake trivia - when it premiered in Paris they had French Vanilla Sky on the marquee (just kiddin') sacre bleu ,this tread iz no joke, mon ami !