T-Bone

I think this is a misdiagnosis of the problem - an incorrect conclusion regarding the cause of an unwelcome, difficult and harmful situation. I believe it is based on a faulty assumption that TWI ONCE had the greatest (superior to all others in the world) teacher and teachings. Setting aside the malfeasance of wierwille’s unabashed plagiarism for a moment - there is much more at issue than just him stealing other people’s work. It’s actually a little more complex than that. There are several hidden false assumptions...there are at least 5 (but not necessarily limited to just 5) that I can think of right off the bat: Faulty assumption #1: The material that wierwille copied from others was completely correct or valid. This does not refer to any particular passage of the Bible but rather to the ideas, principles, interpretations, doctrines and speculations that other authors would abstract from the Bible. (Bullinger’s teaching that there were 4 crucified with Jesus Christ comes to mind). Faulty assumption #2: wierwille was competent...or qualified to understand, analyze, fine tune, correct, clarify or improve the material of others. Faulty assumption #3: wierwille had help from God to synthesize and accurize the aggregate formed from the teachings of others. Faulty assumption #4: TWI became a HARMFUL cult after deviating from the teachings of wierwille; a cult is a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular person or object; a cult is considered HARMFUL ...DAMAGING...DETRIMENTAL ...ABUSIVE to others when what is venerated is a dishonest, delusional, narcissistic megalomaniac like wierwille. Faulty assumption #5: TWI was a genuine Christian ministry...a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry and that through loss of wierwille’s leadership, negligence , erroneous judgments, bad decisions or whatever gave over control, possession or responsibility of TWI to the devil...to the contrary , there are actually much more plausible options than shifting blame to the devil - like basing a ministry on some lying, thieving, cheating, money grubbing sexual predator who lived like the devil - meaning wierwille with great speed, effort and intensity lived an amoral life.

Speaking of Bill Maize - I still remember the memory peg system (uhm some of it anyway): 1 run, 2 zoo...and I agree on the useful stuff of what he taught - for me it wasn’t sales but in public speaking and technical training - I used to train installers and service technicians and sometimes had to make short instruction videos for end-users and sometimes “technically inept“ CEOs.

I love your post! What a bunch of self-inflating blowhards we all hitched our wagons to! You’ve touched on one of the “greatest mysteries “ that use to bug me like crazy in the latter days of my TWI involvement - but I’d have to keep it in check thinking it was our poor believing that caused such low turnout of new people signing up for the class. .. I have a fuzzy memory of - - Elaina Whiteside (?) saying something like we were plunged midstream into the greatest adventure ever conceived...and I often thought if this class...this ministry was the real deal and as exciting, satisfying, fulfilling, life-changing and wonderful as they all hyped it up to be - then people ought to be coming out of the woodwork to get in on the action... Like you said about realizing the big lie - what a mind-blowing realization it was to figure out that I got sucked into a supermassive black hole that trapped all the time, matter and energy of an “alternate universe “ (actual “breadth and length and depth and height “ of this other-worldly anomaly depends on how TWI calculates the number of members/followers/suckers)...but on the bright side I’ve solved one of the greatest mysteries that use to bug the $hit out of me!

wow, George! Your amp must go up to eleven! That’s great insight - and makes the point even sharper! Thanks for sharing... (I woke up at 5:15am to go pee and it’s daylight outside...I’m thinking of the psychological thriller “Insomnia “ - Al Pacino plays an LA detective who flies to Alaska to investigate a brutal murder - things go sideways and the fear and exhaustion from insomnia are messing him up)

Nope - just killing time on a looooong flight to Alaska....uhm...was it something I said?....geez it’s 11pm and it’s still daylight outside!

Try reading Matthew 23 For those who defend or make excuses for wierwille under the twisted rationalization that his bad behavior doesn’t negate the truth he taught - I say buyer beware. Read Matthew 23, Jesus warned of the dangers and insidiousness of hypocrisy....yeah insidiousness... now that’s a big word. After you hear the definition “you'll love that word” it means the quality of gradually and secretly causing harm: Jesus tells the people “hey, you see these hypocrites - you should do as they say but not as they do” what does that mean? It means actually obeying the Word of God has a higher priority than just telling others to obey the Word of God. It’s dangerous and insidious because if you read further in Matthew 23 you see that these hypocrites go out looking for disciples to “teach” them how to be even bigger hypocrites destined for hell...season tickets to hell, folks - front row seats to the lake of fire...hell of a deal...literally...whatayasay?!?! Imagine if you had a government official, a Supreme Court judge or a police officer who has sworn to uphold the laws of the land but they themselves disobey the laws anytime it suits their fancy. What does that mean? It means they are in effect above the law. What if all government officials, judges and police officers behaved that way? And what if that was the norm? You’d have a double standard...you’d have one law “on the books” for the peons like us - and politicians, judges and cops are a law unto themselves - they can do whatever they full well please. If that’s the way the world really worked - I’d say to hell with your bull$hit laws it’s better to be a politician, judge or cop. Okay - back to that lying, cheating, thieving, money grubbing sexual predator known as wierwille. Why do you wierwille defenders want to grant him impunity? Is he above the moral dictates of the Word of God? He made such a big deal about the accuracy and integrity of “The Word” and that it means what it says and says what it means. But his bad behavior indicated that none of that applied to him. These wierwille defenders try to sell me on the dopey idea that God NEEDED wierwille to teach His Word to the masses! If that’s the way God really works I’d say to hell with your bull$hit god and I wouldn’t be interested in “working” as a preacher for such a whimpy fvcked up god who has to scrape the bottom of the cesspool for sales reps. If that’s really the only god out there in the cosmos - then thanks - but no thanks , fellas - I’ll take my chances as a rank unbeliever living with atheists, agnostics, tripped out grads, telemarketers (I never answer the phone anyway),Dead Heads, mothers against drunk pastors, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in a great country that Superman adopted for truth, justice and the American way. Yeah, give me that old time “religion” - the rule of law...now sing it with me brethren and sistern(?) “no one is above the law” yeah sing it till the WOWs come home...oh just tell them to go home right now - leave the field...it’s a free country - dats riiiight , sing it “halls-of-justice, halls-of-justice, oh praise be to the Declaration of Independence!!!!” ...(singing stops...piano and organ stop playing)...Thank you Dorothy, thank you Rhoda...now take your Declaration of Independence and open to our favorite verse...this is our vision for all those who are freed from the tyranny of harmful cults ...the Holy Trinity of ex-cult folks - “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”...amen and amen...you wonder what you should say to your people at a time like this...so I lick my lips...and I’m real natural...then...I move my lips, my tongue, my mouth and don’t even have to think about what to say...I let out a loud belch and call it good. Hey wierwille defenders are you cringing in horror? Afraid I am blaspheming your god and he just might strike me down...like give me the COVID or something....well ...I defy your puny god with a little slingshot of reality - oh *snap* - a little pebble of truth zings into the forehead of the one-eyed-“Goliath”-golden-idol-lying-cheating-thieving-money grubbing-sexual predator-wierwille and you’d better stand back cuz the bigger the bull$hit the more you’ll have to flush - it’s a long way to New Knoxville, ya know...I said stand back - you know what happens when you’ve got the mother-of-all-turds clogging the toilet...the damn thing just won’t go down...the water is spilling over the rim...you’re in your bare feet...Twig is in 1 hour...the Tidy Bowl Man is looking at the turd from the deck of his row boat named “Lil’ Titanic “ shouting “even god can’t sink this turd”...oh the insanity of this $hitberg!

Okay I follow you there...I found this on Wikidiff and I think I understand what you’re saying...from Wikidiff: "Faith: A feeling, conviction, or belief that something is true or real, not contingent upon reason or justification. Superstition: A belief, not based on human reason or scientific knowledge, that future events may be influenced by one's behaviour in some magical or mystical way. " And on another website ( difference between.net ) I found this: "Theories and facts about religion and superstition have really been fought over since those two words were coined. Some might say the other is more credible while the other is not. Others might prove the other as truth while the other a lie. However, this write-up is not about proving and disproving but to give a list of differences between the two...While religion centers on the belief of a supreme being called God or god, superstition centers on the supernatural phenomena of this world.” soooooo...okay – you debunked religion I guess...big deal woo whoo I’m not interested in undertaking your impossible task – nor do I think it’s necessary – and because I've already stated in my first post (which I’m reminding you of that for the second time...tap tap tap...is this mic on? ) how I determine the faith I practice….geez Louise talk about beating a dead post...uhm err..where was I? oh yeah - faith...religion...superstition...I get it, I get it - you think they’re the same thing...I tend to think there’s a nuanced difference (as I expressed in my previous post...tap tap tap...cymbalince cymbalince...1, 2, 1, 2 mic check) but anyway who cares? I don’t.

you are confusing an article of faith – which is a firmly held belief (like the belief in the return of Jesus Christ) with magical thinking. I will address your request for a plausible link that JC’s return is going to happen after a few preparatory remarks by way of review... So...let’s review (from my previous post): Faith: Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof magical thinking: “Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “ Now to address your question I will first need to straighten out the confusion. Is there a causal connection between my behavior, action, inaction or thoughts and the return of Jesus Christ? The answer is no. I have nothing to do with making it happen (if indeed it really is going to happen). Do I have any proof that it is going to happen? Again no. Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ ever existed, was born, walked the Earth, suffered and died on the cross? Once again no. Do I have any proof that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven? No... and to complete the rest of your inquisition I have no proof of Moses parting the Red Sea ( you said The Dead Sea ) , I’m not aware of any extra-biblical evidence of that, I’m not aware of anything of that magnitude happening or being witnessed in the last century. I have not heard of any capsized boats and the survivors walking to shore – I’m assuming you mean in deep water – cuz I have just the story of being on a canoe with my drunk friends – and Steve who didn’t have his sea legs - - I mean river legs – tried to bust a move to impress some girls on the river bank – wound up tipping the canoe over...river was only 3 feet deep...and of course we walked through the water and not on it to drag the canoe ashore. Don’t think the girls were impressed. I just have to say, the title of this thread and your first and second post were a little misleading. I’m not complaining just making an observation. I know I can go all over the map (and I often do ...and be forewarned it might happen again because I'm easily distracted ) but it doesn’t help when I’m confused on what direction you want to go. First I thought you were wanting to talk about the 41,000 Christian groups and how does one decide on which group, beliefs, etc...then it was what about all the other religions...then how do you know there even is a God...then can you judge TWI doctrine apart from their modus operandi...then back to what proof do you have that anything mentioned in the Bible really happened...okay – I get it now, you really wanted to have a philosophical discussion about “why do you believe in a God at all?” (quoting from your first post). I thought I answered that in my first post but I will reiterate my reason here – because I want to.

Well now that you’ve clarified what you’re looking for, I can cut to the chase – it’s a three part answer. Part A - doctrine: The Way International’s window-dressing-doctrine is a somewhat innocuous blend of fundamentalism, ultradispensationalism, spiritualism and Gnosticism. Probably no different than some of the other groups out there…now their inner sanctum stuff of dubious teachings like the law of believing/health and wealth scam and all that whacked out $hit in the advanced class may distinguish them somewhat in a who’s who of nonsense-to-waste-your-time-and-money-groups ….but overall none of that is my cup of tea now anyway - so TWI wouldn’t be very high on my preference list. But that’s just me. Part B - practice: What makes The Way International a harmful exploitative cult and a really bad choice out of the list of Christian groups are their methods. Their hypocrisy, secrecy and money grubbing practices indicates a serious disconnect from their window-dressing-doctrine. ( * and it's debatable if they should even be considered a Christian group ) Part C - spiritual journey in progress: I've already expressed in my previous post I haven't figured it all out and I continue to check out a lot of things. Technically there is a difference between a faith in God and magical thinking. Faith in God simply means God is the OBJECT of our faith – our thoughts, our feelings are directed toward him. Faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof...I mean it's faith - what more do you want ? With magical thinking, thoughts and feelings are directed toward some event or future event, object or person: “Magical thinking, or superstitious thinking, is the belief that unrelated events are causally connected despite the absence of any plausible causal link between them, particularly as a result of supernatural effects…Examples include the idea that personal thoughts can influence the external world without acting on them...In psychology, magical thinking is the belief that one's thoughts by themselves can bring about effects in the world or that thinking something corresponds with doing it. “ from Wikipedia - magical thinking from the perspective of faith, a person acknowledges they are not God and in fact need God’s help. With magical thinking, God is not needed. It’s all up to you and you alone.

You are absolutely right – no argument there...that has been talked about before here and here No one is making an argument about wierwille’s sins negating the possibility that he was right about anything. Do you know what is absurd? wierwille’s flagrant disregard for the intellectual property of others, being a glory hound like it was all the fruit of his own hard work, and then using his position of power and authority to sexually assault women somehow qualifies him to remain a pastor – or to be revered as a great teacher...How does this bull$hit continue to live on? …the perpetual idolizing of wierwille…occasionally putting another coat of whitewash on his life…God forbid his hypocrisy should come to light. God forbid wierwille should be treated or understood any differently than Jerry Sandusky, Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein, Larry Nassar...oh wait – what?!?! Is anyone shocked I mention wierwille in the same light as those slimeballs ?!?! To use wierwille’s own words from PFAL against him and his legacy “ there’s got to be something wrong with our scale of values.” I’m just speculating here – but in saying you may have had a real problem with continuing - if you knew back then what you know now – it seems to me you’ve developed a tolerance for wierwille’s bad behavior. It would help if you were more specific on what these man made traditions are. Are you talking about if Jesus Christ is God or not and stuff like are the dead alive now? That’s issues of doctrine and we could go on forever with a battle of verses to prove this or that...Honestly, I don’t get hung up in stuff like that...but I have to strongly disagree with you on wierwille’s #1 agenda being "what does the word really say" – because of his hypocrisy. I’ve heard him teach on passages like Matthew 15: 18-20 or Hebrews 13:4 that mentions adultery – and he said it was talking about spiritual adultery – i.e. shacking up with other Gods...even in PFAL, when he talks about the two great commandments he leaves it open to one’s own interpretation on what’s forbidden. He said “as long as you love God and love your neighbor you can do as you full well please.” ...oh gee - is that what "The Word" really says? give me a break... ...wierwille’s #1 agenda was “what does the word really say”? Naw - I don’t think so.

How do you define someone, newly coming on the scene? Is the someone newly coming on the scene from outer space, raised by wolves, created in a lab? I am not making fun – you pose an interesting scenario. Or did you have some other hypothetical situation in mind? Not sure what you’re looking for – so I decided to reflect on my own journey and share a few thoughts – hopefully it brings something to the table and touches a few relevant points of your thought provoking post. I first came into this world I viewed my mother – and gradually my father as gods – they were all powerful – they were everything to me – and maybe I was not even aware I was separate from them...eventually I figured out somehow I was distinct from them...I followed in the belief system of my parents (Roman Catholic) – their belief system attempted to explain how the world works...as a teenager I got caught up in the counterculture of the 60s and 70s, got into the arts and music, experimented with drugs, looked into Eastern religions, E.S.P., dated a girl who went to Twig, took the PFAL class, yada yada yada WOW, Way Corps, discovered wierwille was a thief, liar and sexual predator so I escaped from crazy town…this began my crisis of faith and loosed me into uncharted waters. I took everything back to square one and asked myself do I believe there is a God? To put it another way I asked myself do I believe this whole thing is an accident or is there a creator? Being a technical minded person it seemed logical and now also learning to be more intuitive it felt comforting to imagine there was some intelligence or higher power behind it all...so going forward from my crisis of faith in 1986, I’ll relate some of my journey thus far to your scenarios of repairing an engine and finding a PFAL book and determining if it had any validity or not. When I first got married I had a Ford 3-speed Econoline Van and my wife had a VW Beetle. Having a good mechanical aptitude (and learned a lot helping my Dad, older brother and friends work on their cars) – and also out of necessity – I did all the maintenance and repairs on both vehicles. Back then we didn’t have a handy thing like the Internet and You Tube – but there was The Bible of auto repairs – The Chilton’s Auto Repair Manuals with editions that were specific to your year, make and model...I’ve replaced clutches, rebuilt carburetors, replaced timing chains, done tune-ups, replaced brakes, and a lot of electrical troubleshooting. Now a flimsy attempt to tie this all together with what you brought up. I think we all have an innate desire to make sense of the world and figure out how best to negotiate our way through life. From an early age we learn so many valuable and practical things about life – wherever we’re from. Depending on how much we pay attention we learn to sort through what works and what doesn’t work. Like my experiences with working on cars. Like the first time I changed the oil on my 67 Chevy Malibu. I was in a hurry and didn’t tighten the bolt that goes through the oil filter - - oops - so I left a thick trail of oil in the driveway and down the block – good thing my brother flagged me down...Some shortcuts don't work out so good . So lets say I find a PFAL book. I know nothing about the author and I know very little about the Bible. Which describes what I was like when I first took PFAL. One red flag would be the stuff on the law of believing. Reality doesn’t work like that – magical thinking is a phony shortcut to success - and I’m assuming there’s no aggressive snake oil salesmen around to convince me otherwise...other issues might pop up if and when my technical nature would kick in and I decide to study up on the biblical languages and other “technical references” such as systematic theologies, commentaries, Bible studies, etc. and use good analytical skills to spot logical fallacies...you know, any book by itself might seem okay. But in the grand scheme of things - how does it fit in? How big is "the grand scheme"? What's the big picture? My idea of the big picture seems to be getting bigger all the time. well...anyway...that’s just me – and as I said I’m on a journey through uncharted waters – and I’m a lot more open minded to other belief systems now...Reading (and re-reading) Jean Shinoda Bolen's short but insightful book "The Tao of Psychology: Synchronicity and the Self" got me into wanting to understand not only more about Taoism but also Jungian psychology. Carl Jung was a research scientist fascinated with the similar concerns found in many religions and the nature of the self...the guiding principles of my journey are partly intuitive and partly analytical. I am still inspired by the Word of God but I’m seeing things on a broader spectrum now after reading Rob Bell’s "Love Wins". After reading that book - God seems so much more relatable...Jesus Christ seems much more ...pervasive...expansive..."Love Wins" is probably one of the most thought provoking and thought challenging books I've read in a long time! As far as what criteria would I use to choose a religion - I would look at how they deal with the human condition - if they seemed fair, practical and above all compassionate. I would choose the one that came closest to doing those things extremely well. thanks for your thoughtful post - it really got me thinking about a lot of things peace !

Yeah – wierwille drew a line in the sand to distinguish himself and his “ministry” as the only viable option for “biblical truth” by plagiarizing the works of others and yet claiming it was by his own research ( stealing and lying - and on a grand scale - wierwille was a repeat offender - an unabashed plagiarist - that’s two sins committed frequently over the duration of his "ministry" - two sins which are clearly condemned in the Word of God...the original God-breathed Scriptures - and I'm pretty sure stealing and lying are condemned in any Bible translation/version too), and throw in his incompetency of handling material without any due diligence – and voila - you’ve got wierwille’s skewed theology..."drew a line in the sand which clearly separated mainstream Christianity", yup!!! controlling cults maintain their power by promoting an "us versus them" mentality...see the psychology of cults and for variety here's an "us versus them" TED talk you might find interesting ...for anyone that doesn't know TWI's supposed "biblical research" was/is a sham should read Penworks' book Undertow ...Penworks (Charlene Edge) the author of Undertow worked in TWI's research department; in her book she relates how wierwille pressured the research department to alter the translation of a word to fit with his theology - - so much for "biblical research, which is based on the firm belief that the words in the bible as originally given by God, are truth, God breathed, whatever you want to call it." That might be your firm belief but it certainly wasn't wierwille's. I think the way corps program was some intense brainwashing. one night while wierwille was sipping on his Drambuie he showed a porn video to our Family Corps – there were teens present – after which wierwille explained how he’s so spiritually mature that stuff doesn’t faze him and it shouldn’t bother any corps if you want to help others in counseling, you shouldn’t be shocked by anything...I’ll spare you all the other salacious details he got into that night...some folks think what he did and said was okay...and really some folks are still okay with anything wierwille did or said...that makes me think there's still remnants of conditioning or indoctrination in some folks. The way corps program was a delivery system for a sedative to the conscience...That should be regarded as brainwashing! DVD Bonus feature - see TWI's sedative to the conscience and four new way corps students meet wierwille for the first time - if I'm not mistaken I think that scene was the four of them approaching the chapel entrance at the Rome City campus. "They know a lot of the same stuff we do. But they still believe Jesus is God, that dead people aren't really dead, they don't understand incorruptible seed ( they think they can be saved one moment and unsaved the next), some of them think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday." ... People who think they might go to hell for playing outside on Sunday at least they have some sense of morality...I’d rather hangout with some Trinitarian who sees dead people, is not sure if he's going to heaven and absolutely refuses to play touch football on Sunday - than a lying thieving hypocritical delusional drunkard like wierwille who had a penchant for showing off his porn collection... visual aid for "I see dead people" I can't imagine someone knowingly joining a harmful cult...I don't assume people are that stupid. Often people are attracted to a cult for some innocuous reason like the cult claims to answer all your tough questions about life, or claim their classes, teachings, secrets or whatever will increase one’s good fortune... the attraction could just be a desire to fit in – to belong...to be a part of something bigger than themselves...also common in a lot of harmful cults is the romance-phase with new recruits – a lot of love-bombing goes on. see Psychology Today article on love-bombing see also why normal people join cults and why they stay and why did they join a cult?

Excellent point, Cman ! And that got me thinking...what if ignoring the way God works was also left out of the class. I believe it was all too often that God worked in the lives of people despite what TWI-leadership said or did. wierwille taught us to ignore feelings - “feelings come and go” . Maybe that muddied the whole process of how a person grows in the faith. I tend to think Christianity is a mysterious blend of intuition and logic. The “intuition” part allows room for God to work in my life – how he does that is way beyond me and probably different for others since we are all unique individual beings – so I’m not going to attempt to confine him in some little theological box...and furthermore to be clear – overall I don’t think PFAL pitted intuition against logic – but rather intuition versus wierwille’s logical fallacies and skewed theology. Christianity is about God and people. The two great commandments are love God and neighbor. We are social beings. Reflecting on when I was in - it seems to me now that the subculture of the The Way International was counterproductive to how God works with people and situations and even how people work with each other...even if you want to disregard the spiritual possibilities of intuition, I believe hobbling our interpersonal skills can do a lot more harm than good...for instance, wierwille teaching people to ignore or suppress intuition laid the groundwork for spiritual, emotional and sexual abuse by him and others. I Googled “intuition versus analytical thinking” and found some interesting articles. The following excerpt got me thinking that instead of pitting intuition against logic we should acknowledge we need both and determine what the situation calls for: "...One of the themes that came out in the discussion was the need to find a balance between intuitive and analytical thinking. (This is a position I argued in my blog post “Are You an Intuitive or Analytical Thinker?" ) Our intuitions have been finely honed over evolutionary history for making quick decisions in the social realm. Within seconds, we know whether we like some or not, whether we trust them or not. We’re also remarkably good at predicting each other’s behavior in the moment. Beyond the social realm, however, our intuitions often lead us astray—and often in predictable ways. And that’s where analytical thinking becomes important. Even if our rapid-response intuitive system is wrong, our slower, more effortful analytical system can bring us to the best decision. And so we come to the question from the audience: “If you could only have one mode of thinking in your life—intuitive or analytical—which would you choose?” I, the analytical scientist, quickly responded: “Of course you need both.” " from : Psychology Today - which is more important intuitive or analytical thinking As the above excerpt mentioned outside of social settings, analytical thinking is important. And I believe it does have its place in Christianity – I think of things like personal Bible study, preaching, teaching, systematic theology...PFAL and wierwille come up short in that category too. That’s why I said earlier PFAL pitted intuition against wierwille’s logical fallacies and skewed theology. Students in the PFAL class were browbeaten into agreeing with the teacher. Evidently wierwille thought very little of critical and creative thinking skills in saying “you can’t go beyond what you're taught”. PFAL was a formula – a tried and “true” method for TWI’s feeble never-ending "membership drives". As a general rule of thumb, if after a certain length of time (it could be weeks or months until another PFAL class would start) Twig fellowship newcomers didn’t show any real interest in taking the class, then gung-ho Way-believers lost interest in them. The thought of wierwille being God’s spokesman and PFAL being a modern day epistle was the basis for the way corps program. Anyone who has ever been through the program and tells you otherwise is probably still in TWI or the TWI mindset is still in them... ...and advocating a return to PFAL "because we missed so much and didn't get it right the first time" is absurdity to the Nth degree! ...I recall the fervent adulation I used to have for wierwille when I was involved with TWI - and at such reflective sobering moments like that it now makes me wonder at what point did I cross the line. the definition of idolatry is extreme admiration, love or reverence for something or someone.

speaking of money-grubbing hypocrites, liars and cheats - - -

Hi Penworks, thanks for re-posting Michael Langone’s article about the cult conversion process on your blog! The last section on how a cult reinforces their grip through perceived threats and also the unspoken dissatisfaction of followers I found especially intriguing because of my interest in understanding more about the authentic self. I’ll share a few thoughts after I quote from Langone’s article: "The group strengthens the convert’s growing dependency by threatening or inflicting punishment whenever the convert or an outside force (e.g., a visit by a family member) disturbs the dissociative equilibrium that enables him or her to function in a closed, nonfalsifiable system (the “dread” of DDD). Punishment may sometimes by physical. Usually, however, the punishment is psychological, sometimes even metaphysical. Certain fringe Christian groups, for example, can, at the command of the leadership, immediately begin shunning someone singled out as “factious” or possessed of a “rebellious spirit.” Many groups also threaten wavering converts with punishments in the hereafter, for example, being “doomed to Hell.” It should be remembered that these threats and punishments occur within a context of induced dependency and psychological alienation from the person’s former support network. This fact makes them much more potent than the garden-variety admonitions of traditional religious, such as “you will go to hell if you die with mortal sin.” The result of this process, when carried to its consummation, is a person who proclaims great happiness but hides great suffering. I have talked to many former cultists who, when they left their groups and talked to other former members, were surprised to discover that many of their fellow members were also smilingly unhappy, all thinking they were the only ones who felt miserable inside." == == == == == I really liked the entire article and the concise listing of the typical cult conversion process. I’m unfamiliar with some of the technical terms in the article and had to look up a few things – and not sure if what I thought about will go along with all that...but here goes anyway… I think the claws of a cult come out whenever something threatens to gum up the works of their dynamics – as Langone put it “...disturbs the dissociative equilibrium that enables him or her to function in a closed, nonfalsifiable system”. In psychology dissociation is “any of a wide array of experiences, ranging from a mild emotional detachment from the immediate surroundings, to a more severe disconnection from physical and emotional experiences. The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality, rather than a loss of reality as in psychosis.” (from Wikipedia - dissociation ) The term “dissociative equilibrium” captivated my imagination...not sure if this is what he meant but I pictured a circus performance tightrope act...a difficult and risky execution of agility and balance...A key component of my former TWI-mindset was trying to perform a semi-detached balancing act...Having a not-completely-disconnected view of reality while I tried to negotiate through life...and here is the balancing bar used for this tightrope act: on one side I had many of the dubious concepts and theories (like the law of believing) I learned from wierwille...and on the other side of the balance bar was the state of things as they actually existed as well as any ideas of substance - the simple principles of life I grew up with...I would often sway on the tightrope ...wobble the balance pole...and try to look cool in situations like I've got it altogether and this believing stuff really works. (Now, I honestly think that was a such silly fantasy TWI sold us... If memory serves I think it was around 1974 in New York, I remember seeing a flier promoting the PFAL class – there was a drawing of a young lady smiling, resting her chin on her hand and a daydreaming look on her face – and in bold letters at the top of the flier the caption read “You Can Have It All”. .. - - nope!...if you still believe that stuff you need to take the red pill and learn an unsettling and perhaps life-changing truth about life - there are no shortcuts to anything worthwhile. If we accomplish anything rewarding...anything of real value – it’s through hard work, wisdom and skill NOT magical thinking.) But what a nerve-racking tightrope act it was indeed! I honestly don’t know how I attempted to sustain that lifestyle for 12 years – I say “attempted” to take into account the innumerable times I had faltered in keeping up appearances, making sure I didn't confess a negative, abundantly sharing, sponsoring people in the corps, taking more classes, going to all the meetings, checking my attitude, trying to keep my family on board with ministry stuff, trying to make ends meet when I gave more time and energy to the ministry than to my day job (I was never salaried in my work for TWI) blah blah blah.... It’s no wonder so many folks burn out – juggling nonsensical beliefs with reality while serving an exploitative organization can be frustrating and exhausting. The TWI-mindset tends to foster a detachment from the context of an incident (like misleading people to think it’s possible to be so spiritually mature that one can be aloof or objective while wierwille shows a porn video to Family Way Corps)...I suspect even the “renewed mind” techniques that TWI taught may have been just another sneaky way to get folks to disconnect from emotions (ignoring or suppressing frustrations, fears, dissatisfaction, unrest, anger, shame , etc.) while wearing a ministry-face and the subtle pressure to always express views and experiences in ministry-acceptable terms. We were expected to keep things positive and on “The Word”...Langone mentioning many former cult members who admitted to keeping up a smiling face while being unhappy on the inside really hit home for me! I get into reading stuff about the authentic self versus the adaptive self – some of the following ideas I’ve gotten from others... and there’s a lot I’m still processing ...but I can think and chew gum at the same time so here goes ...We are social beings and have a natural desire to fit in. Langone’s article mentioned how people first get sucked into a harmful cult – and specifically for me - TWI was presented as a benevolent authority that could improve my well-being. However - the contrived interpersonal skills we all adopted was a way to survive the social interactions that caused any pain, fear, anger, etc.. We put on our ministry-façade as a way to insulate our authentic self from further harm. This adaptive behavior enabled us to get along in a social environment that threatened our authentic self, with some “success” and with the least amount of conflict with others – but often at the expense of our authentic self going into hibernation...all this is a lot of speculation and personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

“seeds” from an Ohio "farm" of a very seedy “teacher”

Hi Annio, last night I watched the documentary Tina on HBO Max for the second time. But this time around it was on the heels of reading your latest post. The documentary seems to go along some similar themes of an ongoing sorting/healing process and dealing with past relationships. Rotten Tomatoes critics consensus says “ Tina recounts the ups and downs of the singer's life with startling candor and insight, providing an inspiring testament to resilience.” If you or anyone else hasn’t seen Tina yet I thought I’d post a few excerpts from a movie reviewer to pique your interest: “Tina now lives in Zurich, with her husband, former record company executive Erwin Bach, and she sat down to be interviewed for the documentary (sometimes calling to her husband off-screen for confirmation of some detail). These interviews are interspersed with tape recordings of the interviews she did with Kurt Loder, who co-wrote her best-selling memoir I, Tina. Those conversations with Loder were more free-styling expression, often proclaiming her pain in a raw way: "Kurt, why did I get so far without any love in my life?" Abandoned by both her parents, Anna Mae Bullock went to go see Ike Turner, heading up his R&B band. Tina describes almost falling into "a trance" when she saw him onstage. Ike heard Tina sing, and knew instantly she had to become part of his act. Ike had been burnt many times by collaborators abandoning him or taking credit for his work, and he used this against the young naive Tina as a way to keep her loyal and dependent. He saw dollar signs when he heard her sing, and while there's not necessarily anything sinister about that, it morphed into something extremely sinister very quickly, with Tina suffering frequent horrific beatings and violent sexual abuse. Tina was a hostage, not a wife... ...The documentary doesn't rely on social-worker talking-heads to explain why women stay in abusive situations (just one example of how the doc could have gone wrong). Instead, it sticks with Turner's experiences, through home movie footage, archival interviews with one of her sons as well as Ike himself… ...The issue of the abuse she suffered at the hands of Ike wasn't really known by the public until she decided to tell the story to People magazine in 1981. Ever since, she has been dogged by questions about it, even as her solo reputation soared into multi-platinum status. This not only frustrated her, but re-traumatized her all over again. She speaks very movingly of this. Her book was written, in part, to tell the story herself in the hopes that it would close the subject. Of course people were even more impertinent and curious. The 1993 movie "What's Love Got to Do With It?", starring Angela Bassett (who was interviewed for the documentary), and Laurence Fishburne as Ike, brought the toxic relationship once again back to the forefront, leading to another press tour where she had to answer disgusting questions like: "What was the worst part of the abuse?" from: Tina - review by Sheila O'Malley

excellent post, WordWolf !!!! it checks all the boxes !!!!

Oh I’m always aware of that, Rocky ... and I figure I’ll have some fun too by poking holes in ridiculous arguments and pseudo-spiritual nonsense.

Exposing the lies of wierwille and helping folks overcome self-deception is its own reward.

true that... And don't get cornered into a conversation

Plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own. That is both stealing and lying. There are numerous passages throughout the Bible that indicate both stealing and lying are wrong. Obviously copyrights and judicial law concur with the Bible on this matter. Are you going for an Alan-Desrshowitz-for-the-defense-of-unabashed-plagiarism-and-other-con-jobs move? you might want to consider a different strategy to defend your admiration of wierwille… ...And actually you don’t need to defend your admiration for wierwille. You can admire whoever you want for whatever reasons you want to admire the person. But don’t kid yourself into thinking you can sell others on “the greatness of wierwille”. ...Been there done that…I escaped that nonsense years ago. But don’t be dismayed... There is hope! there is a way out of the rabbit hole, Mike! Maybe it’s time to suck it up and deal with self-deception. some food for thought: We deceive ourselves because we don’t have enough psychological strength to admit the truth and deal with the consequences that will follow. ..by Courtney Warren Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception….from Wikipedia

Wow Mike I did a double take reading your post! And here’s why: instead of your typical beating around the bush on the plagiarism issue – you talked about it directly, revealing your true feelings – and for that I thank you !!!!! I sincerely mean that – I’m not being sarcastic. You said “I care not one bit about copyrights on these things. I'm sorry to see it bog down people the way it does. It looks very contrived and artificial to me. Let's talk about more important issues, OK.” Now it’s crystal clear to me what your opinion is of copyrights, plagiarism, proper citation, real scholars and what's due them – and I’m sorry you have such a low opinion of all that – but I will respect your opinion and hopefully you will understand I have a much higher opinion on them than you do. As far as us talking about more important issues – we’ll have to come to some agreement on what is more important. As I’ve already indicated there will be some differences of opinion as to what matters have greater significance or value – hopefully we can amicably figure that out...since your last words were “How's Speaking in Tongues doing for you these days?” I figure we can start there...I’m not sure if you said that sarcastically or if you are indicating that is the first of the more important issues you want to talk about...if you intended to convey contempt...well, let’s just leave it at that. If you really do want to talk about speaking in tongues maybe that would warrant a new thread – I’ve already expressed my opinion on speaking in tongues on a few threads already but I always enjoy the opportunity to reiterate my views. In closing, I wanted to clarify my intentions and the thought behind my posts. I was not making fun of you. My target is usually wierwille and all the deceitful tactics he utilized. That is an important issue to me because in my opinion lying and stealing on a grand scale is wrong. Obviously, you have a different opinion on that.

Whoa whoa whoa! Careful now...I think one of those is the spell that makes the copyright symbol invisible to any plagiarist...Not sure...or maybe it’s all of those being said while you play session 1 of PFAL backwards.

That vending machine analogy brings to mind the frustration many TWI-believers have to deal with...some folks think it helps to add a little body English to their believing .... visual aid - adding body English to your believing