T-Bone

yes - I think the 2nd definition I listed from Longman Dictionary has the same sentiment

did someone say Way-scamming ?

Truth be told “chief cook and bottle washer” was a thing I got from my Dad...when I was a kid my Dad would use it for different applications: if we were in a store and spotted some employee working furiously to get something done he'd say something like “must be the chief cook and bottle washer”...a few times I remember when we had company over and the grownups were complaining about poor service somewhere and they should have said something – my Dad would quip “best to go to the chief cook and bottle washer”....I've never looked into the idiom until now – from Google search on the phrase I think I found the best ones that seem to reflect what I remember of my Dad's usages: Definition: A term used to refer to someone who is in charge of practically everything within an organization. The idiom chief cook and bottle washer is used to refer to someone who is in power in an organization and oversees virtually every aspect of the organization. It is used particularly to refer to small businesses or other small-scale organizations. Although it seems to apply particularly to the restaurant industry, this idiom can be used to refer to anyone in such a position in any industry. (from idiom dictionary ) and From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English chief cook and bottle washer ...chief cook and bottle washer someone who does a lot of small jobs to make sure that an event is successful – used humorously → chief. From: Longman dictionary and A person in charge of numerous duties, both vital and trivial, as in We have no secretaries or clerks; the department head is chief cook and bottlewasher and does it all . [Slang; c. 1840] from: The Free Dictionary and now you know the rest of the story... I was kidding about wanting to become one...but I think Pawtucket and the Grease Spot moderators definitely qualify since they perform numerous duties both vital and trivial for a smooth running and successful forum. Kudos to Pawtucket and the moderators !!!!!!!!!!

This is just my observation / opinion of what goes on at Grease Spot - in response to some who may have a more myopic perspective...and I'm thinking in terms of my overall Grease Spot experience – since joining in 2006 – though of late, there hasn't been as much activity as there use to be (for various reasons: people move on, lose interest, become involved in other things, etc.). To describe one's visit to Grease Spot as daily exposure to negatives makes me think of two things: 1. maybe that person shouldn't come here every day and 2. look at some other forums like in Open (general discussion of anything), the Movies, Music, Books, Art forum, Matters of Faith (doctrinal stuff) or Humor – just to name a few options. There's a lot more to Grease Spot than exposing the dark underbelly of the beast. About The Way forum does tend to be negative just because many of the experiences, as well as ideas and views on certain issues regarding a harmful and exploitative cult are not very pleasant. However, to me it seems like this has been a natural development of the forum. And I should add that it's not always negative. There have been many threads that have discussed the question of did you throw out the baby with the bath water – I think there was even a thread by that name. I even started a thread TWI Memories: good, bad and indifferent – and lots of folks contributed posts that covered all three aspects... ...and for that matter, many positive experiences, ideas and views have been posted in About The Way forum - just proportionately not as much as the negatives - probably just works out that way naturally given all the variables of each individual person, how much they were involved, what if any TWI programs they participated in, etc...and from what I've observed it seems the threshold for experiencing the brunt of bad stuff from a harmful and exploitative cult is if the person was in one of TWI's programs like the way corps, WOW, fellow-laborers, etc. ... ...ever wonder why TWI-followers who have never gone through any of these programs never complain about the manipulative, controlling and deceptive tactics of TWI? They are unaware of the inner workings of a harmful and exploitative cult - what it takes to keep this thing running...It's like that movie Soylent Green - a dystopic future of overpopulation and consumerism - we find out about the truth of the evil food processing company The Soylent Corporation - that soylent green is people!... DVD Bonus Feature The inner workings of TWI are known by the people who work in the "factory". TWI is a cult of personality - a cult of victor paul wierwille...in my way corps training we ate, slept, and breathed PFAL and all things wierwille...it was a wierwille clone factory...alternate ending for Soylent Green parody - Charlton Heston is being dragged out of the Rock of Ages big tent while yelling "TWI is wierwille-clones" . ...anyway...enough digression... back on the positive side - I've noticed sometimes Grease Spotters expand on something "positive" or valid from their TWI experience in the doctrinal forum - which is really cool to check out - you get to see in technical details why some folks did not throw out the baby with the bathwater. What these other forums indicate to me is that there's a whole lot more to Grease Spotters than just what they've discussed in About The Way...speaking just for myself, I've broadened my horizons on so many aspects of life because of music, TED talks, books, humorous videos, jokes, Bible resources, personal Bible studies, secular books and wisdom, viewpoints, and personal philosophies that folks have shared in those other forums. I started off this post by saying this was just my observation / opinion of what goes on at Grease Spot - in response to some who may have a more myopic perspective. That is my way of giving them the benefit of a doubt – that they just haven't looked at the big picture of all that goes on here. Sometimes it's very difficult for me to give someone the benefit of a doubt – to accept what they say as true or that they deserve my trust when I see clear evidence in their choice of words that they just want to guilt me into feeling that I've done something wrong by criticizing wierwille, PFAL or TWI.

so you’re saying there’s a chance I could suddenly become chief cook and bottle washer ?!?! …I’m okay with that.

Lurking is the next best thing to posting but I always enjoy reading your posts, Oak !

you mean you didn't see that coming?

some day I hope to become chief cook and bottle washer

I think the biggest complaint about reincarnation was losing prior memories of another life...sounds like Grease Spot solved that problem...yeah Grease Spot administrators !!!!

Mike – you said :“I think that all of you have finished exposing the worst of TWI.” you make it sound like there's plenty of good that's been ignored...but you mischaracterize what Grease Spot does and you ignore the real problem ...TWI is a cult of personality – that revolves around their delusional narcissistic morally corrupt founder victor paul wierwille; though he has passed away, the life-sucking organization barely survives living on the remnants of his “estate” which was built on a precarious foundation of twisted doctrines, delusions of grandeur, cognitive dissonance and shady practices... ...If there's any good of TWI that should not be ignored it's all the good, honest and kind folks who were or are still in it and think they are involved in a Christian ministry...whether they realize it or not they are being exploited for their dedication, finances, energy, talents, and misplaced faith... And lest any of you wierwille-defenders get your panties in a wad may I remind you I have consistently kept my focus on actions, things that were said and done, observations, experiences, events, situations. I have never attempted to play God and peer into his heart and speculate on his intentions. I have no doubt that he believed he served God and God's people....that was probably part of his delusion...and considering how much he would publicly criticize just about every other group out there he probably thought his ministry was the one and only genuine Christian ministry. As the old saying goes “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” - wrong or evil actions are often undertaken with good intentions – and sometimes acting upon good intentions may even have unintended consequences. What are intentions? They are merely guiding principles for our thoughts, attitudes, choices, and actions. Usually our intentions make us feel good about the beliefs we have. But intentions become irrelevant if they are not aligned with actions. I look at how well wierwille's publicly stated intentions and any mission statements align with Christian ideology. I believe Jesus Christ set forth the two highest priorities for his followers in Matthew 22: 37 – 40 - to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. ..It seems obvious to me that how we treat people matters to God...so it makes sense that we should judge ourselves on how we actually deal with people rather than judging ourselves on why we think we serve God's people... I think it's important to be honest in evaluating our actions to see if they are in tune with our ideology. ...there is a key to proper discernment as described by Jesus Christ in Matthew 7 : 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” I think for the most part many folks in TWI believed it was a genuine Christian organization; and as I already said above - as much as wierwille bad-mouthed other groups he more than likely thought his ministry was the only truly genuine Christian ministry; sadly, with a charismatic delusional narcissist like wierwille at the helm - and even if he had the best of intentions - the organization was doomed to be adrift in a sea of his dark fantasy; having survived this cult experience one of the many lessons I've learned is that unless a ministry or church is truly Christ-centered (in word and deed) – it's just a ship of fools...Jesus provided the key to proper discernment in the parables of Matthew 7 - warning of false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. Jesus said you will recognize them by their fruit; fruit is something you can see; it's something the tree produces; The fruit of one's labor is something one makes from components or raw materials or even by just plagiarizing other people's work, often adulterating their work with his incompetency and twisted viewpoints ; fruit of one's labor is something one causes to happen or brings into existence - like creating the way corps program, the WOW program. Fruit is not the mission statement or pious platitudes - that's just labeling on products or services...that's just words...The Fair Packaging and Labeling Act , enacted in 1967, directs the Federal Trade Commission and the Food and Drug Administration to issue regulations requiring that all "consumer commodities" be labeled to disclose net contents, identity of commodity, and name and place of business of the product's manufacturer, packer, or distributor...Too bad there's not something like that for religious “commodities” – but then again who would be in charge of overseeing that? What would qualify them to be in charge? I guess that's why it's best to leave it up to each and every individual Christian “consumer” to think deeply on Jesus' criteria and let honesty and conscience be their own guide.... Jesus spoke of these religious charlatans as a diseased tree that bears bad fruit, and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. He did not say the diseased tree should be healed, salvaged or reformed... The passages following the bad tree imagery seem to speak to pseudo-Christian groups, led by false prophets and ravenous wolves incognito. Jesus' words particularize who the phonies are within this group – they call Jesus Lord, they talk the talk, they're Bible thumpers but they do not walk the talk – they do not do what the Lord says to do. Ultimately the last nail in the coffin for such hypocrites is when their personal storms come – their lives collapse for they were built on the foundation of a cult leader. ...There was a strange duality during my involvement with an exploitative cult. There I was in a supposedly Christian organization and yet it seemed like their agenda and their way of doing things brought on most of my hardships, frustrations, heartaches and resentment. Since I left I have thought about Psalm 23: 4 many times - “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me...” Being in TWI was like being in a Twilight-Zone-soap-opera called “Daze of Our Lives”. We were all preoccupied - staying busy with doing “the work of the ministry”, disconnected from reality, and usually in an unfocused state of mind...maybe it could be called the fog of cults - since "brain cloud" was already taken in Joe versus the Volcano A bizarre soap opera indeed that emphasized the priority of your "spiritual family" - "the household" (translation: those who stood with the "Man of God" / The Way Ministry), contrived interpersonal relationships, with lots of sexual scandals, and emotional and moral conflicts. ..in this cultic subculture mix of good people and some bad apples (certain folks in the hierarchy of wierwille-sycophants) I believe God often helped me through tough times in spite of what some bad people did; on the flip side I also believe God helped me during some tough spots through what some good people did. Hooray for the good folks! The work of exposing a pseudo-Christian exploitative cult is never done as long as there are potential “customers” out there who could be lured in by their bait. Another reason that's just as important for sounding the alarm on these religious charlatans is for those poor souls already ensnared in the darkness - a supermassive black hole of wierwille's delusions...I was one of those poor souls...My hope is that many will wake up - come to their senses - heed Jesus' warnings - and get the hell out of TWI !!!!

wasn't that a Spanish pop star from the 80s?

...on the flip side – I bet there were a lot of things that slipped by unaware PFAL grads – for example the teacher (wierwille) was a plagiarist, a liar, a thief, a cheat, a megalomaniac, delusional, a narcissist, a control freak, a fear-monger, inventor of the hook shot, an adulterer, a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a cult leader, besides being drunk half the time and smoking like a fiend. And on the cutting edge – Grease Spot is where a lot of PFAL grads first become aware that the teacher (wierwille) was a plagiarist, a liar, a thief, a cheat, a megalomaniac, delusional, a narcissist, a control freak, a fear-monger, inventor of the hook shot, an adulterer, a sexual predator, a wolf in sheep's clothing, a cult leader besides being drunk half the time and smoking like a fiend... ...of course a lot of seasoned PFAL grads over their years of involvement became painfully aware of that stuff – and have shared here about unfortunate encounters with wierwille - experiencing some of those awful traits of his first hand – after all Grease Spot is the other side of the story...things that slipped by unaware folks, things that we forgot, things about our pre-cult days that we forgot about, goals and interests that we forgot about, reengaging critical and creative thinking skills, picking up the pieces and moving on, reconnecting with old friends and making new ones, finding kindred spirits, listening and being supportive, being aware of what's genuine and not letting fellow Grease Spotters slip by unappreciated.

This is odd - you brought up wierwille's book “Jesus Christ is not God” , the blessings of PFAL, fear of accidentally committing the unforgivable sin, grads talking about possession, and wrong-seed or possessed church leaders who harp on consequences of not believing Jesus is God and then you now claim you were in conversation mode …sorry Mike – I think you mean commercial mode. ... it all sounds like another one of your worn-out commercials to promote wierwille and all things PFAL. conversation is expression and exchange of individual ideas through talking with other people debate is to dispute, argue, especially in a public arena You may claim you're just in conversation mode when someone confronts you on your shameless promotion of a fear-mongering cult leader like wierwille - but I just think that's a chicken$hit way of avoiding a debate... ...Question dodging is a rhetorical technique involving the intentional avoidance of answering a question or addressing a challenge. This may occur when the person questioned or challenged either does not know the answer and wants to avoid embarrassment, or when the person being questioned or challenged in debate wants to avoid giving a direct response. You can express your ideas all you want here and offer them up in hopes of exchange (an act of giving and receiving with another) – but realize if the sum and substance of the ideas you offer up are just “drink more Ovaltine Kool Aid" commercials – then expect to receive resistance from people like me who balk at dumb commercials on TV - I'm one of those folks who talks back to the TV all the time ... maybe someday you'll realize the differences between conversation, debate and sales promotions.

Geez Mike – I must have touched a nerve with my post that said “wierwille was the biggest fearmonger that I have ever come across” ... ...so why the diversionary tactic of you starting off with “Hi T-Bone. I too was Roman Catholic, but the churches I referred to above were all Protestant.” followed by your soliloquy on blah blah blah and such. ...anyway... ...have a nice day

actually it would make perfect sense if the mediator Jesus Christ mentioned in I Timothy 2:5 was a partaker in the nature of both sides – human and divine - because he would have a perfect understanding of both sides of the situation... it's perfect...it's fitting...who would be more qualified for the position as mediator between God and man? ....see Hebrews 2:14 and especially John 1:14 which does suggest that Jesus Christ is a crossbreed – a hybrid - having a dual nature ... “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son[a] from the Father, full of grace and truth.” ESV - the Bible Gateway online version of ESV says of the footnote [a] after “Son” that it can also read "only One, or unique One”. being both human and divine is indeed unique! Luke 1:35 touches on the same idea of the divine conception - “And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.” it's quite possible wierwille's mischaracterization of the Trinity obfuscated the dual nature of Jesus Christ for a lot of TWI-followers. I've heard wierwille make fun of the Trinity in public meetings – likening it to 3-in-One multipurpose oil saying it was good for nothing. But as any do-it-yourselfer has found out that “Its name, given by inventor George W. Cole of New Jersey in 1894, reflects the product's triple ability to "clean, lubricate and protect". from Wikipedia Just because wierwille refers to the Trinity as 3-in-One does not make it so. I think there are enough passages to suggest that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are NOT one and the same BUT rather that they work as one – they never operate at cross-purposes to each other ...plain language distinguishes the difference between “the Father” and “the Son” - Jesus himself said “the Father is greater than I” John 14:28 . The Father and Son are NOT identical – similar in many ways perhaps – but NOT identical. I'm not saying I understand the Trinity. But then again who fully understands the concept of God – an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient being? Can anyone here tell me what it feels like to be around forever? Can anyone here explain how God is transcendent and yet at the same time immanent? I notice in the book of Acts the disciples often referred to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior – terms typically applied to God in the Old Testament. when I read about the supremacy of Christ in the epistles I'm tempted to wonder if the Father gets envious of all the attention his son gets...maybe it's more like the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are perfect team players – they work as one... ...I just like to say perhaps wierwille had a tendency to trivialize God – reduce him to fit in some neat little theological box...we are all probably guilty of that at times...but how about broadening our horizons...maybe don't get so hung up in the trivial pursuit of bringing God down to our level of understanding...Where is the mystery...the metaphysics...the wonder in TWI-doctrine? Where is the honesty...the humble acceptance of saying we just don't know how God works? I read some neat stuff in doctrinal on the economy of the Trinity – that made me re-think the Trinity ...economy - the careful management of available resources...think team players...think all for one and one for all – think The Three Musketeers

I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church and never even heard of the unforgiveable sin until I joined The Way International... In the Catholic Church there were mortal and venial sins...there was purgatory...there was Limbo (which I think they did away with the concept years later)...we even used to pray for the souls in hell... considering all my life experiences I can say without hesitancy that through the Power For Abundant Living class, I learned to fear more stuff than anywhere else...like, fear of something happening to my kid on his way to school can actually allow it to happen...fear that I have already committed the unforgiveable sin (I actually have thought about it a few times over the years when I felt my enthusiasm or commitment didn't match those I looked up to) ...fear of being out of fellowship cuz it might mean I can get possessed...fear of doubting "the man of god's interpretation" of the Bible - cuz God might punish me somehow or take away any blessings - that could put me out of fellowship and open to possession...worried I didn't speak in tongues enough or always worrying I didn't "work" the PFAL material enough to make it my own... ...I think the ideology in PFAL was wierwille's strongest tool for subjugating followers of TWI - believers were afraid to step outside the boundaries he had set...that is pure oppression...enslavement. wierwille was the biggest fearmonger that I have ever come across...I've heard him say many times in different ways that if you walk out of The Way Ministry the only thing left for you is oblivion...quite often wierwille would harp on the consequences of believing Jesus is God - and I've heard him say in meetings open to the public - that to truly believe that Jesus s God you'd have to be possessed...looking back - it's obvious to me now that all his bluster and thunder was just a way to galvanize folks to side with him on the issue - simply out of fear of the consequences (getting possessed)...a handy way to polarize folks - divide and conquer - "all those who don't want to get possessed, come with me." ...wierwille promoted paranoia of the devil to get people to cling to his teachings - as a parent would use the fictitious boogie man to frighten little children into good behavior. ..and that erroneous concept of wrong-seed is so absolutely-biblically-bogus anyway I don't think it deserves any more attention here - other than to say wrong-seed is the ultimate boogie man.

The older I get the more frequently I return to this topic. In my 40s and 50s I had no problem controlling my weight through a variety of means: Atkins diet, sheer-willpower-starving-myself-down-to-a-certain-weight, aerobics and free weights…but now in late 60s it’s tough to try and lose weight - I don’t have the drive to do all that…another “mystery” for me is how metabolism changes with age - and there’s probably other factors that affect it too.

Yeah I think the food pyramid is suspect…and we eat a lot of processed food and fast food…I am trying to do better on portion control…and eating healthy takes a lot more planning.

And don’t forget chicken gizzards on pizza

One of the most challenging times in residence was doing the research paper - part of my fear was knowing I was a very poor typist; so I started practicing believing images of victory

Great posts Annio! It seems to me you have a healthy, kind and mature approach in all of this…I just wanted to share a few thoughts you brought to mind… …we humans are very complicated but imperfect social creatures…Back in the early 80s a very thoughtful TWI-clergy guy ran a Christian counseling seminar for all the Twig leaders in our area – in the seminar he referred to some of the works of Jay Adams. After that I really got into Adams’ stuff for a while – though since I left TWI and expanded my horizons in theology, counseling, philosophy and psychology I don’t always agree with some of Adams’ viewpoints – but I do think he nailed it on two things: 1. sin is always the problem and 2.interpersonal problems are usually never one-sided...the other person may have thrown the first stone - but I was quick to toss it right back at them! Because we are very complicated but imperfect social creatures sometimes it doesn’t take a whole lot for interpersonal difficulties to fester and interfere with our ability to bond with another – sometimes it just starts over some personal slight…after 45 years of marriage I can confidently say it’s a fight to the death on who’s fault it was - no, just kidding …most of the time it’s a lot of work to just sort out and admit who opened the can of worms and what particular worm has some dirt on another worm… Reconciliation is a big deal – not just with God, but also with people reconciling with people - Matthew 5: 23 & 24 even puts it ahead of worship! The kindness in your posts is the polar opposite of the hard-heartedness I remember in TWI…There was a tendency to write-off people over so many things – “he’s tripped out of the ministry” “she’s possessed” “he’s wrong-seed” "that whole group is off The Word" ...and sometimes certain leadership could be so vindictive toward someone who challenged them or criticized them - it would make you wonder if they were even Christian… …guess I’ve become a real softie in some ways…I like to believe there’s always hope – that a person can change…I think reconciliation is the final step in the forgiveness process – it repairs the bond… …I even give wierwille the benefit of a doubt. I know I am very critical of the things he’s done – and it’s important to bring such abusive, toxic and hypocritical pseudo-Christianity to light in order to warn others (per clear directives like in Matthew 7: 15-29 and II Peter 2 ) …in saying I give him the benefit of a doubt – I mean I don’t get into trying to figure out his motivation or intentions. For all I know wierwille truly believed he served God and God’s people. That doesn’t make everything okay – it makes him delusional. Since he’s passed away there’s no hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with him and his victims in this life…but who knows how God will resolve all the world’s messes in the next life…guess that’s still hope.

another consideration is what observing human nature has taught us: fear of being found out may have been the only reason a “minister” / predator kept his “inner-monster” on a leash.

that is so true...just one aspect of the L.E.A.D. program is a prime example of TWI's preference for "spending" people rather than its own money...in the Family Corps at Rome City, Indiana campus - we had to hitchhike to and from Tinnie, New Mexico. That's about a 1,400 mile trip – one way; and we had to hitch there in under 3 days or else the L.E.A.D. Staff would make you turn around and hitch back to Rome City – then you'd have to try again at another session some time later...folks can read on Grease Spot about some of the horror stories of rape, assault and other horrible experiences of way corps hitchhiking to or from L.E.A.D. ...would it have broke the bank if TWI had provided a shuttle bus and drivers (it's only about a 21 hour drive – one way) to take participants to and from Tinnie. It would have been a lot more efficient and safe! God – just that one aspect of L.E.A.D. has got to be one of the most cheap-a$$ and reckless low points of TWI's management style! I don't know what the L.E.A.D. program was supposed to accomplish - but it does make me wonder about what kind of organization would put the lives and well-being of its most devoted followers at great risk! how about a new way corps promo video - actually a re-make of an old classic - "They Were Expendable"

yeah I think you're right

Thanks for posting that – so fascinating... Dr Sam V as the tour guide of the narcissist's mind touched on so many interesting points: Narcissism is a post-traumatic condition...a victim – usually of the parents (I read some of the comments below the YouTube – this one really stuck out: “Moral of the story- if you cannot give a child unconditional love and acceptance, please don’t have one. That’s how narcissists are born and they torture everyone for the sins of their parents.”). Other points by Dr V: to the narcissist we are commodities ...the false-self that the narcissist creates within serves as protection from pain. And whoever edited out the translators behind him spent a lot of time making a smooth flowing lecture – kudos to them!