T-Bone

This has the makings of a movie – Grapes of Wrath 2: Lie Harder. (alright so I plagiarized from the Die Hard film series... ... guess I should try harder )…in case you slept through some of your high school classes The Grapes of Wrath is a John Steinbeck novel published in 1939. The story is set during the Great Depression and focuses on the Joads a poor family of tenant farmers driven from their Oklahoma home by drought, economic hardship, agriculture industry changes and bank foreclosures. Due to their nearly hopeless situation and being trapped in the Dust Bowl, the Joads set out for California along with thousands of other “Okies” seeking jobs, land, dignity and a future. In Grapes of Wrath 2: Lie Harder the story is set some 18 or 28 years or days and times and hours later and focuses on wierwille a pathological liar and a poor excuse for a pastor who had resigned (or was fired) from the Van Wert Church and driven from a clear conscience by an exceeding abundantly above normal desire for fame, fortune, power and pleasure set out to build his own cult - which wound up being in his own backyard - the family farm (how convenient) along with thousands of followers including one Okie who for a short time took over this Mickey Mouse operation. In the film adaptation, there are no credits at the end of the movie because wierwille always takes all the credit...the moral of the story? wierwille came into his own by what other people own. Plagiarism is the key to success...If at first you don't succeed, lie, lie, and lie again.

I’ll be too… the misinformation seems reminiscent of a cult-like mindset - which tends to ignore science, facts and reality- throws caution to the wind , scoffs at practical countermeasures and no concern for the safety and well-being of others… oh no I’m having a LEAD flashback…wierwille is giving us the big send off and reminds us to believe God big and everything will be okay…”now get out there and hitch! You’re my kids …so make me proud!”

Good post, Chockfull !!!! And you got me to reevaluate wierwille’s doctrine from another angle. wierwille’s self-promotion was camouflaged by the persona that he was a simple clergyman frustrated with the lack of answers and power in his life until supposedly God spoke to him. In the authorized book on TWI, titled “The Way Living in Love” wierwille stated “I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on. And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others. Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me.” I believe anyone who is NOT enamored with this myth of wierwille should be able to see through his smoke and mirrors. Comparing wierwille’s body of work with that of E.W. Bullinger, it becomes clear that wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist. It is intriguing to note wierwille attempted to preemptively avoid the issue of pirating intellectual property by occasionally saying something along the lines that much of what he taught was nothing new, he simply pieced together what he learned from others and with God’s guidance made it accurate in the process. So, I decided to suspend my criticism of wierwille’s flagrant plagiarism and examine his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. If indeed he had God’s help then we should not find any errors or logical fallacies – in either the exact copying of another person’s material or in wierwille's supposedly “correcting" , “revising” …or in any way modifying another person’s material. In other words, the finished product of wierwille’s doctrine (which also goes by the pet name “The Word” – an affectionate term used by big wierwille-fans ) should be error-free and faultless in every way. I did not have to go very far in this reexamination – here are two examples straight out of PFAL: 1. Example of wierwille copying another person’s error: The four crucified with Jesus. This is a distinct error first propounded by E.W. Bullinger. To keep it brief – I will not go into great detail over this bizarre teaching which has already been laboriously dissected on Grease Spot in numerous threads by many folks. Suffice it to say here that given what we know of how the Gospels were written – not only from independent research but even from passages within each of the four Gospels – we find that the Gospels were produced by assembling information collected from many sources. For example, note the word “compile” in Luke 1 ESV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1&version=ESV “1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught.” I think the erroneous four crucified doctrine that wierwille copied from Bullinger was one of wierwille’s favorite ploys to distinguish himself from other Bible teachers. It plays on a false-fear that you’ve been missing a lot of info – almost as if to say “all those other Bible teachers missed there were actually four crucified with Jesus. What else have they missed? Stick with me and you’ll find out lots of other things that even many Bible scholars have missed.” Besides the fact that the Gospel writers compiled information from many sources the reality that there are four DIFFERENT narratives of the life of Jesus Christ represents four DIFFERENT accounts of events and experiences – each Gospel presenting the details through a sequence of the author’s own choosing. The sequence is always linear – in a straightforward manner – even if there’s an extremely long protracted timeline such as John 1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=ESV starting off with “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” wierwille’s argument for there being four crucified with Jesus depends on him using the dubious “scripture build-up” method – piecemealing passages from across the four Gospels as well as mangling and obfuscating definitions of the Greek words for “thief” and “malefactor” to try and suggest there were more than two crucified with Jesus. wierwille’s teaching on this in the PFAL class reminds me of the film “Pulp Fiction” - a 1994 American crime film written and directed by Quentin Tarantino – the film’s narrative is told out of chronological order and follows three main interrelated stories that each have a different protagonist. In the case of Bullinger’s / wierwille’s teaching of the four crucified with Jesus – their misconstrued narrative is told in an awkward chopped-up chronological order as if by someone who suffered a severe trauma to the head and now has lapses in memory - -zeroing in on the different Greek words used in each Gospel when referring to the others crucified with Jesus…Bullinger and wierwille also assume that the Gospel writers were not mentally advanced enough to understand the concept of four, since there is no mention of four criminals at the crucifixion scene in any Gospel.,,even though the disciples seemed perfectly capable of other mathematical challenges - like enumerating the number of days/nights Jesus would be in the grave - three ... or to mention their own number - twelve disciples. With all this finagling of who said what when about who, it seems to me wierwille was really playing an intellectual shell game involving sleight-of-thought, in which various words and ideas are moved about with the skillful adeptness of a double-talking used car salesman, to the amazement of PFAL students. Do you know what this means? wierwille’s big act of being so concerned for the accuracy and integrity of “The Word” is just that – an act! It’s a sham ! How does butchering the Gospels in a piecemeal fashion to concoct an alternate version of the crucifixion scene reflect precisely and honestly what really happened? wierwille attempted to show us what other Bible scholars had apparently missed. His spiel was a mixture of sense and nonsense that appeared to be earnest and meaningful and at times was a rapid patter of deliberately evasive ambiguous language and elaborate and passionate but confusing explanations. What wierwille missed was the importance of the central figure at the crucifixion – the Lord Jesus Christ !!!! …I think wierwille was just making a mountain out of a molehill and being ignorant of how people relate an incident. Four different people could have witnessed a hit-and-run incident and give four different descriptions of the vehicle that hit the victim. One person says it was a white SUV. Another says they thought it was a white Ford Bronco, a third witness says the SUV looked gray. And the fourth witness replays the dash camera in her car and it shows a 1998 light gray Dodge Durango SUV – which eye-witnesses could have mistaken for white since the incident happened at dusk and colors often appear different in low light…To one Gospel writer, the two men crucified with Jesus were described as thieves. To another writer, they’re malefactors – or evildoers. Even wierwille admitted in PFAL that each author of any book in the Bible used their own vocabulary and style when writing by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Also, many Bible scholars have pointed out that each Gospel has a distinct viewpoint and a particular purpose to portray certain unique aspects of Jesus Christ – and as such logic would dictate that the proper literary flow is to simply read each Gospel all the way through as a whole piece, to understand the author’s original intent. There are many more inaccuracies and logical fallacies concerning lots of other Bible stuff in PFAL - so you might want to check out: Raf’s thread Actual Errors in PFAL and Mark Clarke’s thread More blatant PFAL errors = = = = = 2. Example of wierwille screwing up another person’s correct interpretation: Another thing that wierwille “borrowed” from Bullinger but then he mangled in PFAL is from II Peter 1: 20, 21 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=II+Peter+1&version=KJV 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. In Bullinger’s book “How to Enjoy the Bible” Bullinger says in regard to “of any private interpretation”, is that the little word “of” is genitive of origin – and is simply saying Scripture wasn’t CONCEIVED by anyone’s imagination or personal interpretation. Bullinger goes on from there to cover some basic hermeneutics – which is the study of the methodological principles of interpretation of the Bible. I believe Bullinger got that part right. In PFAL however, wierwille muddied up II Peter 1:20 and said The Bible should not be privately interpretated – in other words, it’s a no-no to have or offer a personal interpretation or opinion……there is to be no “I think it means this”. wierwille goes on to say that if no private interpretation is allowed than the Bible must interpret itself. Just pause for a moment and think about what an affront that is to logic, linguistics, historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and philosophers – not to mention Bible scholars, translators and textual researchers. We’re talking about a compilation of 66 different books written by 40 different authors over the course of an approximately 1500-year period, using basically 3 different languages, spanning a variety of cultural, political, and geographical settings. Needless to say wierwille's idea that the Bible interprets itself is silly...absurd...laughable...and I can't believe I actually bought into it at one point in my life. In my defense I will say I was young and naïve. critical thinking schmitical thinking. In PFAL, wierwille does briefly get into some of the keys to the proper interpretation of the Bible mentioned by Bullinger (and which you’ll also find in many affordable paperbacks written by competent and better qualified authors – besides the more technical books of many systematic theologies written by real scholars)... But here's something puzzling - in PFAL wierwille tries to make the case that you can’t go wrong using these “simple” keys to see how the Bible interprets itself – but truth be told, observing wierwille in live teachings or even speaking extemporaneously he often failed to adhere to the very interpretive keys that he promoted in PFAL. He’d ignore the context of a passage, fumble with the definition of a Greek word, proof-text, twist things up in logical fallacies – and don't forget his go-to tactic for pulling answers out of thin air to justify his absurd interpretation of a verse “Father showed me this.” It's like an actor going off-script. If there was truth in scamming (well, that's gotta be a contradiction of terms ) I could picture wierwille saying "I'm not a real doctor but I play one on TV - if you happen to be watching a video of the PFAL class." So reevaluating his body of work from the premise of his one particular claim - that God spoke to him and would help him piece together what he had “learned” from others and with God’s guidance make it all accurate in the process. Assuming that God Almighty is an infinite, perfect, omniscient, truthful, and rational being who is absolutely capable of clearly communicating any type of information to other rational beings - and given that wierwille's body of work contains numerous inaccuracies, contradictions, and logical fallacies - leads me to conclude wierwille made a false claim. God did NOT guide wierwille to produce a perfect body of work. Wierwille must have lied and/or had been operating under a serious delusion. * * * * * To understand wierwille’s origin story is to peer through the smoke and mirrors of wierwille-mythology and comprehend the fascinating backstory – a complicated narrative unfolding on Grease Spot that still continues to reveal stuff about the narcissistic megalomanic, unabashed plagiarist and self-deluded cult-leader. If all this is news to you, then you might want to check out: WordWolf’s thread The Way Living in Wonderland and Skyrider's thread The Wierwille Legacy: Who will write the book? * * * * * PS: Hey, you folks still involved with The Way International – you’ve got some reading AND thinking to do! Besides reading the threads that I gave the links to – you should check out the book “Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International” https://www.amazon.com/Undertow-Escape-Fundamentalism-Control-International-ebook/dp/B06ZY8HVKS on Grease Spot the author goes by the name Penworks. She also started a thread about her book - click here > https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24360-undertow-escaping-from-the-fundamentalism-and-cult-control-of-the-way-international/ She worked in the research department of TWI. There’s some very revealing stuff in there about the shady inner workings of The Way International and how wierwille who was supposedly so concerned about “the integrity and accuracy of The Word” had no qualms about pressuring the research department to mistranslate a Greek word so it would substantiate what he thought a passage should say. and what about his dictum “ private interpretation of the Bible is not allowed “? I guess it’s okay for wierwille to do that. And while you're thinking about ordering Penworks’ book you could always do some light reading of another thread started by Penworks - Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24319-evidence-letters-vpw-wrote-to-the-way-corps/ besides the comments of other Grease Spotters you can also visit an independent website that has a lot of TWI info including way corps household newsletters - click here > https://sites.google.com/site/corpsnewsletters/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home - be forewarned these letters are not for the faint of heart – if you’re a big fan of wierwille you’ll probably be shocked at how narcissistic, manipulative, vengeful, and berating personality wierwille was – evidenced by his own words to the way corps, his most devoted followers. I encourage you to read…and think…fully engage your cognitive skills. Live a little dangerously - try ignoring what leadership tells you to think about Grease Spot. Think for yourself…If the observations, arguments and experiences expressed on Grease Spot seem ridiculous and unbelievable to you, then blow us off and return to your “idyllic” life in TWI. But if there’s anything that resonates with you – then take your time to mull things over… ...Back in 1986, once we realized there was something really wrong with The Way International (even though we couldn’t actually nail it down yet) my wife and I took several months of prayer, deep reflection, crucial Bible studies, reviewing of Way-doctrines and lots of intense conversations over our individual experiences, doubts, questions, concerns and feelings before we mutually decided to leave TWI…there was no Internet back then. We had to fend for ourselves...we had to start thinking like adults - which is a really odd thing to say - but because we were so indoctrinated - thinking like an adult was trained out of us...being fully indoctrinated forces you to have a childlike dependency on leadership. In other words, your intellect, emotions, aspirations, hopes and dreams are on a short leash - you lack independence or autonomy due to being strongly controlled by another. You owe it to yourself and your loved ones to take a long and honest look at wierwille’s real origin story and then decide if that should remain as part of your own story. ...Take your time and be smart and careful if you do decide to leave...your safety and security ...and freedom is our utmost concern for you ! Your allegiance should be to God and Jesus Christ and that you serve them with a clear conscience. You do not owe The Way International anything...for as much as they have exploited you, I think they owe you a lot ! that's all for now, folks - - peace to all !

Great posts, WordWolf !!!!!! I will have to save those with all the other posts of yours that have all the salient points of one issue in one place. How convenient! Thanks a bunch!

Great posts, Rocky !!!!!! no new revelations here with what’s already been discussed on Grease Spot - but I like how you put it so succinctly in your posts - it all fits The Way International to a “T” ! I got a kick out of even mentioning “a little thing” like the wasting of your time part. That even affects “low level” cult-followers - maybe they’ve never been WOW, gone in the corps or any other programs - but they regularly go to fellowships, way-functions, take the classes - blah blah blah…not to mention all the money they regularly give to TWI in abundant sharing - money is another form of time - it takes time for folks to EARN that money by doing LEGITIMATE work! We’re all familiar with that old saying “time is money” or you can flip it around - money is time.

Good post, Waysider !!!! that’s some good info for everyone to know

Yes Twinky ! An excellent point of showing the enormous latitude TWI-folks may find in TWI-doctrines / TWI-mindset / TWI-pat phrases and the potential for causing great damage. To elaborate on my post that you referenced: I, T-Bone have said the following in an earlier post : "I understand your perspective on TWI’s narcissistic cult-leaders. My points were to show that the cult of TWI has more than one dysfunctionality trait – and that other maladjusted characteristics can be found in other TWI-doctrines. Just going on TWI’s version of gender bias (unscrupulous, horny AND narcissistic men having an unfair advantage over women) can be found in PFAL – wierwille slipping in a justification for David’s adultery by saying technically all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king. And further on into settings like wierwille’s Christian Family and Sex class or routinely showing a porn video to in-residence way corps all the while soft-pedaling his licentious attitude by saying things like “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me” and “anything done in the love of God is okay”. These were all ways for wierwille to lay the groundwork to have (besides other malicious purposes) an advantage over women." People need to bear in mind the multi-purpose use of TWI’s version of gender bias - one motive is so that unscrupulous, horny AND narcissistic male TWI-leaders can have an unfair advantage over women. Take for example, the two seemingly Biblically based but actually insidious and mind-numbing pat phrases that I mentioned in the above quote - they are exact quotes from wierwille – I’ve observed him saying both of them in the context of supposedly teaching what the Bible says about sexual matters in the Christian Family and Sex class and with him showing a porn video to in-residence way corps as a way to supposedly prepare us to handle anything when believers come to us for counseling: Example of how an unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leader might use either of the two stupefying phrases: A woman goes to a TWI-leader for counseling because her husband is not that affectionate anymore and she even admits she has grown cold and doesn’t think she could respond emotionally or physically to her husband anymore. [ I will cut to the chase instead of pointing out why this counseling setup is wrong to begin with] …Now if this happens to be one of those unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders that I mentioned earlier – then he just might start leading the conversation down a seductive path – saying stuff like “Maybe at some point we need to get your husband in on this conversation. But right now, I am puzzled why your husband is that way. You know, at Branch and Area meetings I’ve seen how standoffish you both appear to be around each other. You are always so sweet and attractive – if you were my wife I’d be hugging and kissing you like crazy to make sure every guy knows you’re mine.” He laughs a little as if it was an innocent and amusing comment. She blushes and giggles slightly – but he could tell by her body language she is very uptight. “Fortunately” his wife is out of town visiting her parents. He offers her a little wine to make her feel more relaxed. After a couple of hours and a few glasses of wine the conversation has softened her up and crossed many boundaries. She admits she has always found the TWI-leader attractive – even sexy (oops did she really just say that out loud? Maybe it’s the wine talking)… and she hemmed and hawed when she was trying to tell him she was even kind of envious when she watched how he was always sweet and affectionate to all the women at any ministry function. As if feigning a moment of inspiration – he twitches his head slightly, says “well then…” stands up, walks over to her – reaches down and clasps both her hands to pull her up to stand in front of him – face to face. He then hugs her and gives her a soft lingering peck on the cheek. Her face is flushed – her breath catches. “You mean like - that?” he says…She stammers out words that come quickly – as when a lot of people do when they’re nervous – caught off guard and don’t know what to say or do…she admits out loud she’s very uptight…she doesn’t know how to react to that…but he’s as cool as a cucumber – so she stares intently into his eyes…for some reason she recalls the scene from The Jungle Book with Kaa the snake singing the “Trust in me” song…sure…this is okay…he’s being a big brother to me…but then he leans in and gives her a long passionate kiss on the lips…Mayday Mayday !! she’s wondering if she can handle this…relax…don’t freak out…don’t show the man of God you’re a baby…she’s wondering if this situation is wrong…she’s confused…reminds herself this is an ordained clergyman…[Now TWI-fans here comes the windup pitch]: Then the unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leader says: “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me” [or he could say] “Anything done in the love of God is okay”. Slick soap opera camera editing shows pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of an AT-A-Glance Weekly/Monthly Planner flying by ( the planner appointment book with the reminder to order your next year's planner at the end of August, it's product number 76-950-05 in The Way Bookstore online catalog - call now operators are standing by ) - and now it's a full blown affair – several months down the road, she announces to the unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leader that she is pregnant. His demeanor becomes stone cold. He tries not to flinch or sound nervous or afraid as he says “I think it’s best you get an abortion. Doctor taught us there’s nothing wrong with that. And you need to think about how any knowledge of this getting out would hurt the immature believers who are not spiritually strong enough in The Word - uhm...they wouldn't understand. But the love of God thinketh no evil - right? You and I are spiritually mature – we can handle stuff like this. Remember doing anything in the love of God is okay.” Let’s take a break from that steamy romance novel to consider another aspect – as Bolshevik mentioned earlier “The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?” In a harmful and controlling cult there is sort of a trickledown effect with insidious ideologies – where ideas and behavior gradually, by remote or indirect influences - flow from the upper unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leadership down to the lower ranks. Realistically, not everyone is receptive to such unprincipled thoughts and behavior – but those who are – or may already have similar predilections and just need some “mentoring” tend to be very ambitious – to rise in the ranks and have access to the perks – the desirable “extras” that come with a position or status. It’s a red letter day when you get to the point in your “walk with God” that you can easily use the same pat phrases “ambi-flextrously” (that’s a new word I just invented and refers to unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders saying the same thing to get them in or out of trouble. For example, part of his seductive rap is “anything done in the love of God is okay” and that gets him laid…She gets pregnant – he recommends she get an abortion and to alleviate any qualms she might have about getting an abortion he says “anything done in the love of God is okay”). Two sides of the same wooden nickel. These aspiring unscrupulous and horny dudes usually learn by seeing examples. The “best” teachers are those that practice what they preach – even in a narcissistic and multi-dysfunctional harmful and controlling cult like TWI. The more involved I got in TWI and moved up in status – going in the way corps - the privier I became to see exactly how the unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders modeled living “The Word”. It was all hypocrisy on the order of Matthew 23 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23&version=NIV . To understand how TWI-followers get to the point of being unaware of wierwille’s licentious nature is to understand how a sexual predator can be hidden in plain sight. It is by masking his true nature in the guise of a man of God, a teacher of the Bible. ... I bet if you showed a video of some of those times to anyone - ANYONE - who was not so indoctrinated with wierwille's twisted ideology - after they recovered from that shocking presentation (which could take a while) they might say something like "so who is this joker and what qualifies him to teach the Bible and act so authoritatively ? So even though I've witnessed him doing and saying some inappropriate stuff innumerable times - it never registered in my head that wierwille was a sexual predator - even the night he showed us the porn video and then worked on guilting us into feeling bad if we were not mature enough to handle it. They say love is blind. I had such an enormous respect and admiration for wierwille - probably bordering on idolatry - that I paid no attention to any of his shortcomings nor ever realized anything about him was amiss. Such is the blinding condition of a cultic-mindset. And it wasn't just wierwille...there were other unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders - like LCM. I remember one corps night Craig was on a rant about something - - maybe it was about not having regrets in your walk with God...he talked about living your life without fear of failure...if you love God everything is going to be okay...trust in God's providence...he won't let you totally screw up your life or anyone else's ( wow ! how's that for a humdinger of a lie!?!? have no fear our beloved cult-leader says we don't have to feel responsible for our negligence or acts of abuse to others) ...anyway... he starts talking about abortion...and I guess it was to alleviate the guilt and shame of any women who have already had an abortion - or maybe it was also a type of preemptive manipulation to some woman in particular who was being pressured to have an abortion - Craig says something like "what's in the past is past. It's not like you killed the next Apostle Paul." ... ... ... ... ...Grease Spotters, I don't care if you're pro-life or pro-choice - that was just an awfully cold, callous, flippant, and demeaning thing for Craig to say. As God, Jesus Christ and my wife are witness I can speak with a clear conscience – I have never sought after, indulged in nor found appealing the hidden licentious lifestyle of these unscrupulous, horny and narcissistic male TWI-leaders. and I’m not the holier-than-thou type and I wasn’t the only honest and decent way corps person. There were hundreds if not thousands of good folks like me who truly loved God, served fellow believers the best we could and probably made life in a harmful and controlling cult somewhat tolerable. When I was in TWI for 12 years, I was never aware of that stuff. And it’s sobering to think about how treacherous a cult can be when you consider all the other people in positions of power and authority of the group besides the cult-leader who know what goes on and yet are complicit. And I should say something about ignorant facilitators like me – unaware of all the deceit, abuses of power, and illicit behavior. I was such a naively enthusiastic flunky who constantly talked about how great it was "to serve God and His ministry" – which now I’ve come to realize - that was just the Kool-Aid talking. * * * * * * * * * * Hey Grease Spotters and moderators – sorry for all the tangents and off-topic stuff…feel free to report any of my posts – and moderators feel free to delete any of them. I don’t know if it’s a certain topic…the time of day…or that I’ve finished binge-watching Friends – but somedays it’s like a bulging can of worms in my head – that I know is a sure sign of botulism, but I open it anyway…I post about it…feels ugly and awkward to write about …I know reading this stuff is kinda like watching someone puke…anyway …I feel better now…Thanks for putting up with me.

Yeah – that is sad but true. I understand your perspective on TWI’s narcissistic cult-leaders. My points were to show that the cult of TWI has more than one dysfunctionality trait – and that other maladjusted characteristics can be found in other TWI-doctrines. Just going on TWI’s version of gender bias (unscrupulous, horny AND narcissistic men having an unfair advantage over women) can be found in PFAL – wierwille slipping in a justification for David’s adultery by saying technically all the women of the kingdom belonged to the king. And further on into settings like wierwille’s Christian Family and Sex class or routinely showing a porn video to in-residence way corps all the while soft-pedaling his licentious attitude by saying things like “I’ve so renewed my mind that stuff like this doesn’t bother me” and “anything done in the love of God is okay”. These were all ways for wierwille to lay the groundwork to have (besides other malicious purposes) an advantage over women.

No conflation intended – and there was no attempt to conflate – matter of fact, to the contrary, concerning where gender bias was applicable, I distinctly separated TWI’s abortion doctrine from the rest of TWI’s subculture: Gender bias in TWI’s abortion doctrine really exerts a similar influential force like the anti-abortion groups to nix a woman’s freedom to choose. It's all about men having some control over women...only in the case of TWI-culture – the unscrupulous and horny TWI-leader who got the woman pregnant might pressure the woman any way he can to get an abortion and coverup the scandal – thus undermining her reproductive freedom of choice. What if she wants to have the baby? What if she thinks abortion is wrong? That doesn’t matter to the unscrupulous and horny TWI-leader. What he’s worried about is what if his wife or congregation find out about it. Bolshevik & Twinky, I agree with you both – my posts were a bit off topic – sorry about that.

That’s some good points Twinky and Bolshevik! Your posts got me looking into all the reasons: here's one article: “3.5% of Abortions Are for the “Hard Cases” Calculations based on statistics provided by medical journals and government surveys in the United States show that abortions for the “hard cases” are much rarer than most people believe. A survey of more than 2.4 million aborting women performed by the states of Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota and Utah during the years 1996 to 2020 gives us an accurate estimate of the number of “hard case” abortions, since these are the numbers that abortion clinics must report in official documents to these states: 1.14% are done to save the life or physical health of the mother. 1.28% to preserve the mental health of the mother. 0.39% in cases of rape or incest. 0.69% for fetal birth defects, or eugenics. 3.50% for all the hard cases combined. 96.50% of all abortions are therefore performed for social or economic reasons. Even the Guttmacher Institute puts the number of abortions done for the hard cases under 7% after doing several surveys of women obtaining abortions (the Guttmacher Institute was the research arm of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the largest chain of abortion clinics in the United States. It is considered the most reliable provider of accurate statistics on abortion). Statistics from Other Nations The reasons for abortions all over the world are largely the same. In 1998, the Guttmacher Institute published the results of studies showing that lifestyle reasons also predominate among aborting women in other nations. Its summary of surveys performed in 26 countries outside the United States showed the primary reasons for aborting given by the 62,658 women interviewed.3 Since rape and incest are included under “other reasons,” a maximum of 5.8% of all abortions performed in other countries are done for the hard cases, and a minimum of 94.2% are performed to preserve the mother’s lifestyle or to please those close to her. The Guttmacher Institute duplicated their survey twenty years later in different nations and arrived at identical results. Its 2017 study of 39,622 women obtaining abortions in twelve nations also revealed that only 5.8% of all abortions are done for the “hard cases.” The Takeaway Even people who wish to argue that the hard cases justify abortion must admit that these hard cases occur only a tiny minority of the time, and that the vast majority are performed for social and economic reasons.” From: https://www.hli.org/resources/why-women-abort/ = = = = = = = A much earlier research project had similar findings – four near the top of the list gave various social reasons - and at the top of the list at 40% was for financial reasons: “Common Abortion Reasons Research collected from 2008 through 2010 asked women about the reasons for getting an abortion. Some listed multiple reasons for their decision. The reasons, and the percentage of women who gave each one, are: Not financially prepared: 40% Bad timing, not ready, or unplanned: 36% Partner-related reasons (including the relationship is bad or new, she doesn't want to be a single mother, her partner is not supportive, does not want the baby, is abusive, or is the wrong guy): 31% Need to focus on her other children: 29% Interferes with educational or vocational plans: 20% Not emotionally or mentally prepared: 19% Health-related reasons (includes concern for her own health, the health of the fetus, use of prescription or non-prescription drugs, alcohol, or tobacco): 12% Want a better life for a baby than she could provide: 12% Not independent or mature enough for a baby: 7% Influences from family or friends: 5% Doesn't want a baby or to place the baby for adoption: 4% This survey used open-ended questions rather than having women select from a checklist of researcher-generated reasons. Previous surveys that had a set of answers got many responses for these reasons: Having a baby would dramatically change my life I have completed my childbearing Don’t want people to know I had sex or got pregnant It's also interesting to point out that most women cite two to four reasons for abortion, not just one. In general, younger women often cite that they are unprepared for the transition to motherhood, and older women consistently indicate that they are already responsible for children and/or are past the childbearing stage in their lives.” From: https://www.verywellhealth.com/reasons-for-abortion-906589 = = = = = = = = = Bolshevik: “In this thread we are talking about people whose minds and hearts are under the influence of a cult, women included. The actions of the leaders were spread into the behavior of the sheep, right?” Yes – BUT – I tend to think the abortion doctrine that TWI promoted and perhaps even in some anti-abortion groups there is a gender bias to it; Gender bias is a preference or prejudice toward one gender over the other - bias can be conscious or unconscious, subtle, or obvious. I believe in the context of TWI and in some anti-abortion groups the gender bias favors the men. Men assume authority over a woman’s reproductive freedom – it’s a method of control - in TWI a leader might tell the woman to get an abortion to cover the affair. Laws that make access to abortion difficult will usually have a negative impact financially and socially – according to the research I’ve seen. If it was the other way around – men getting pregnant instead of women – I bet men would have the reproductive freedom to make a choice – and I bet it would probably be for similar reasons i.e., financial, social, a threat to health. Most things are structured to give the male the advantage. It’s a man’s world. From an article “What Exactly Does 'It's A Man's World' Mean?” …Despite the fact that just more than 20 years ago, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) mandated diversity in its clinical trials, these pronounced gender and racial gaps persists. "Medical research that is either sex- or gender-neutral or skewed to male physiology," wrote the researchers of a study of disparities in medicine, "puts women at risk for missed opportunities for prevention, incorrect diagnoses, misinformed treatments, sickness and even death." It gets better. Until the passage of the Affordable Care Act, which eliminated overtly discriminatory gender pricing, women paid financially for not having male bodies. Prior to the act, 38% of women seeking individual insurance coverage were rejected, charged a higher premium on the basis of their gender (this was legal in 42 states), or had to purchase coverage that excluded the "pre-existing condition" of having been pregnant. Pregnancy is construed, as Travis put it, "as a disability, rather than, say, an additional ability," a matter of subjectivity in the end. In effect, having a female body was a limiting and expensive preexisting condition. (Women who'd survived domestic violence and sought prior medical attention were also uninsurable. The violence, unlike other crimes, was considered a "preexisting condition.") The way that insurance companies successfully commoditized this male-centeredness takes place every day. Women pay more for a non-standard, female "shrink it and pink it" marketing, not because the products and services are different, but because gender pricing is cheap, legal and highly profitable. In France, women have had enough and after widespread protests, France's finance ministry is investigating "the invisible woman tax" levied on thousands of products and services. Which gets us to law. Jurisprudence is still frequently based on "reasonable man" standards that assume male bodies and experiences. A man is far more likely to be threatened by another man who is not an intimate partner and is of roughly equal size and strength. Women, however, are most likely to be assaulted and killed by an intimate partner, most frequently a man, on average larger. In addition, our largely "sticks and stones" approach to crime is highly gendered in ways that hurt men and women. It is one that prioritizes visible, physical violence (masculinized) over invisible, psychological and emotional harm (feminized). Ideas about "imminent harm," and self-defense continue to ignore these critical differences. As a result, harms to women are minimized and women's survival strategies are criminalized and excessively punished. The average prison sentence for men who kill spouses is two to six years. Women? 15 years. Tens of thousands of women are in jail or dead because of these standards. From: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/what-exactly-does-its-a-mans-world-mean_b_7454660

Ok - something like Gremlins 2: The New Batch but it’s Suckers for Cults 2: The New Batch…so much for the prevailing word

After giving your post some more thought – I wanted to elaborate further on a few details regarding Texas’ new abortion law. The following was on the news about it: “Texas Governor Greg Abbott defended his state's strict new abortion law, saying that it doesn't force victims of rape and incest to carry their pregnancy to term because it "provides at least 6 weeks for a person to be able to get an abortion." At the signing for a GOP-supported voting bill on Tuesday, a reporter asked Abbott why he would "force" a rape or incest victim to carry a pregnancy stemming from sexual assault to term. The new abortion law, which went into effect last week, outlaws abortion when a fetal heartbeat is detected — as early as 6 weeks into pregnancy and well before many women even know they are pregnant. The governor responded that the bill "doesn't require that at all because, obviously, it provides at least 6 weeks for a person to be able to get an abortion." He also emphasized that "rape is a crime and Texas will work tirelessly that we eliminate all rapists from the streets of Texas by aggressively going out and arresting them and prosecuting them and getting them off the streets." The Texas Department of Public Safety reported that in 2019, there were more than 14,650 cases of rape reported in the state, making up nearly a quarter of all reported violent crimes. That same year, fewer than 3,900 people were arrested for rape and other sex offenses, according to the department. The bill also allows civilians to sue anyone who helps someone get or performs an abortion for up to $10,000. New York Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez told CNN's Anderson Cooper on Tuesday that Abbott's comments ignore the basic biology behind how and when people become pregnant. "I'm sorry that we have to break down biology 101 on national television, but in case no one has informed him before in his life, 6 weeks pregnant means 2 weeks late for your period," she said. "And 2 weeks late for your period for any person with a menstrual cycle, can happen if you're stressed, if your diet changes, or for really no reason at all. So you don't have 6 weeks." In regards to Abbott's comments about seeking to "eliminate all rapists," Ocasio-Cortez said that most rape victims are assaulted by people who they know. When it happens, it can take victims a long time to come forward, and when they do, not everyone wants to "retraumatize themselves by going to court." From: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-abortion-law-governor-abbott-rape-victims-six-weeks/ In a previous post I described the victim as “a woman who was raped by an uncle” for the very reason NY Rep Ocasio-Cortez mentioned - most rape victims are assaulted by people who they know. I liked Twinky’s idea – that the law “imposed and enforced on the father of the child an equal responsibility for caring for the child and supporting it, especially financially - for all of its life - as most parents do, for their kids of any age. “ There are some similarities to Old Testament passages that address rape and various contingencies – one website I found - here – at Got Questions org https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-rape.html does a good job of covering the basics - and we have to keep in mind that was a different time, culture and social mores. = = = = = = = = = Another disheartening bit of news I came across was about law enforcement’s neglect in processing rape kits – this negligence is a nationwide problem: “In the most detailed nationwide inventory of untested rape kits ever, USA TODAY and journalists from more than 75 Gannett newspapers and TEGNA TV stations have found at least 70,000 neglected kits in an open-records campaign covering 1,000-plus police agencies – and counting. Despite its scope, the agency-by-agency count covers a fraction of the nation's 18,000 police departments, suggesting the number of untested rape kits reaches into the hundreds of thousands. The kits contain forensic evidence collected from survivors in a painstaking and invasive process that can last four to six hours. Testing can yield DNA evidence that helps identify suspects, bolster prosecutions and in some cases exonerate the wrongly accused. The records reveal widespread inconsistency in how police handle rape evidence from agency to agency, and even officer to officer. Some departments test every rape kit. Others send as few as two in 10 to crime labs. Decades of promises from politicians, and more than $1 billion in federal funding, has failed to fix the problems. The roughly $1,000 cost to analyze each kit is among the hindrances for police. Records obtained from police agencies in all 50 states show: • While attention has been focused on large metro police agencies, tens of thousands of untested sexual assault kits are accumulating almost without notice at rural and smaller city departments. Hundreds of rape kits remain untested in places like Muncie, Ind., Visalia, Calif., St. Cloud, Minn., and Green Bay, Wis. • In most states and at most law enforcement agencies, there are no written guidelines for processing sex-crime evidence. Decisions often are left to the discretion of investigating officers, leading to inconsistencies.” From: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/07/16/untested-rape-kits-evidence-across-usa/29902199/ = = = = = = = If I may be so bold as to offer some modifications to the new Texas abortion law – maybe criminal investigation, justice and financial responsibility might be better served: 1. Nix the vigilante civilians being allowed to sue anyone who helps someone get or performs an abortion for up to $10,000. Instead award $10,000 – to be split up however they see fit - to everyone – including the victim - having information that leads to the identification and capture of the rapist. If it’s her uncle and he hasn’t left town yet - then the niece gets the entire $10K. As further recompense, the IRS and any current or future employers will be notified of the rapist’s financial responsibility to support their child for the rest of the child’s life through the process of garnishing wages and assets. 2. matter of fact nix the whole new law - just go back to the way things were...it seems to me what drives draconian measures like Texas' new abortion law is a fear that Roe v. Wade will be overturned. 3. Require that all rapists wear a name tag with their qualification. This would really help the police in Texas find all those rapists that are roaming the streets. For example: Hi my name is Joe Schmoe and I’m a rapist - Or to minimize the shame – like if you only raped your niece once Hi my name is Joe Schmoe and I’ve only raped somebody once - These nametags can be tailored to your church needs: Hi I’m Reverend Joe Schmoe limb coordinator for the great state of [fill in the blank] and I’m a sexual predator - well, a bit boastful if you ask me throwing around titles and status but if you want to justify the crime it can read Hi I’m Reverend Joe Schmoe limb coordinator for the great state of [fill in the blank] and I’m a sexual predator but I tell all my victims they should consider it abundant sharing 4. I’m a big fan of Lisbeth Salander the main character in The Girl with the Dragon Tatoo series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Tattoo_Stories_(film_series) - so I thought as another punishment for the serial rapist – in lieu of not always having to wear the nasty nametag – should have a tattoo on their forehead I’m a serial rapist so you know what’s on my mind - maybe that should be tattooed on both cheeks as well - this way for their mug shots you've got it on both the front and profile picture...gives new meaning to "turn the other cheek" and something being said twice means it's established - but wait a minute he's got it on his forehead too - aha - he must be a Trinitarian - these three statements agree as one.

I understand your point – and I imagine there would have to be a lot of contingencies to work out – yeah like that’s gonna happen overnight - the way lawmakers turn anything into a political issue instead of addressing the actual problem. Like if the father was a serial rapist – if he gets caught and is incarcerated for a long time, how is he going to financially support his children (and I certainly don’t think he should be caring for any of them) – so then would his children qualify for financial assistance from the state as well as becoming wards of the state/court if the mothers can’t or won’t handle it? Or instead of incarcerating a serial rapist – should the state castrate him and then assist him in finding a good-paying job so he can support his children? Oops I also digressed…No such options/contingencies were considered within TWI. Everything they did ignored financial and any parental/guardianship responsibilities – but I think probably the biggest snafu they wanted to avoid was the impact to their “customer base” if it became public knowledge that their beloved president and founder or any of his “sons” (ideologically speaking) were sexual predators.

Holy crap !!!! Wouldn’t you know it. I jumped outta the frying pan and into the fire!

I’m in agreement with all of that. Well said, OldSkool! I hope I’m not breaking the rules by crossing the threshold into politics – but I just wanted to add there is an absurdity afoot. There’s a new Texas law allowing people to carry handguns in public without a permit – so now there’s no required firearm training for safety, basic shooting skills or firearm retention. 2nd amendment folks know their rights! And besides that - just to shoot ourselves in the other foot - we’ve got folks who are anti-vaxxers and refuse to wear facemasks because they know their rights too!...but wait there’s more…And on top of that Texas has another new law – the new extreme abortion ban – which actually tasks private citizens with enforcing it by an incentive of being awarded $10,000 - the right-to-life folks are probably happy about that. I don’t understand the logic if you look at the big picture. There’s an inconsistency in the application of the unalienable rights “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. A woman who was raped by an uncle or her health is critically threatened by the pregnancy - must have that baby – nixing the mother’s right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness. And what if this pregnant woman gets covid from an anti-vaxxer anti-masker neighbor? Or what if she goes shopping at Babies R Us at the mall and gets caught in the crossfire of a couple of gun toting hotheads? So it seems to me there's a big concern for a life that’s in the womb – but not that much of a concern for preserving a life once it’s out of the womb. A woman who was raped by an uncle or her health is critically threatened by the pregnancy has no right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness – but a gun toting anti-vaxxer anti-masker does? I don’t have an answer. I just wonder if we all can figure out the balance – of drawing the line - where exercising my rights will not infringe on the rights of others. and just for the record I have a concealed handgun license, I'm fully vaccinated and wear a mask, use hand-sanitizer and practice social distancing. And I'm in favor of a woman's right to choose.

Hi Atus - - uhm... I mean Hi Ham !!!! It's good to see you posting again - - sounds like you're doing okay - well, I am too.

Okay fine…well then, I just might listen to a few old Sunday Night Teaching Tapes I’ve got stored in a Rubbermaid storage tub in the attic…what’s that you say? The extreme temperatures of an attic are murder on cassette tapes? …Yes, I know. (gleefully snickers)…Smithers, fetch me attic storage tub number 25 with the hazardous waste material sticker on it. Chop chop!

Maybe we forget our real world manners . I usually avoid politics and religion - and nowadays even among some people I’ve known for a long time. I don’t know - I think a memorial should not be a time to “speak ill of the dead”. I wouldn’t do that at a real funeral. Let’s make another time and place for debate.

Welcome to Grease Spot, Mike R !!!! I was a WOW in D.C. 75/76

My “origin story” is similar to Waysider’s – and I should add that meeting an extremely shy and cute blonde named Lisa coincided with me being in a search-mode for something metaphysical that I could sink my teeth into. Denise – my friend Steve’s girlfriend - introduced me to Lisa. I think Lisa was the first one to be in TWI within our circle of friends…She was shy and easy-going – we began dating – and in conversations Lisa never badgered me about my beliefs being weird or wrong …she seemed interested anytime I talked about my search - - and best of all – she never sounded like a sales brochure for TWI. What was there not to like about this girl? Lisa’s tranquil demeanor seemed guileless and with me being in a transcendental search-mode, I had no reservations about checking out the fellowship she went to. It was out on Long Island and the Twig coordinator was Sammy Pr**n – he was a carpet layer by trade (I remember the cool looking patchwork carpet on the floor of his living room, made from the carpet scraps of many installs) - - and also a talented musician. He blew my mind one night when he played / sang a Blind Faith tune “Can’t Find My Way Home” – but he adapted the lyrics to a Christian theme of coming to God – can’t remember it exactly but it started out with something like this ( and Sammy, if you’re reading this please excuse my bad memory and butchering your adaptation): Come boldly to His throne And leave your pride alone Don’t be afraid to change You are the reason He’s been Waiting all these years Your heart holds the key That’s about all I can vaguely remember. That fellowship was the perfect introduction for me – I signed up for the PFAL class pretty soon after going to that Twig for a short while…That was a great time of easing into a new frame of mind – life was simple…fun…inspirational back then…but you know how that goes – it’s extremely difficult for TWI to leave well enough alone …so I got more involved – went WOW and later went in the Family corps – and the rest, as they say is misery.

thanks all, for reminding me of what a memorial is about. It's a time to set aside our differences and instead talk about how we're all connected in some way. Over the years I’ve been to many funerals of parents and loved ones related to my friends and co-workers – many times I didn’t know the deceased personally. Afterwards I would try to think of something comforting and strengthening to say to my friend – and usually it was stuff about the loved one’s intangible legacy reflected in my friend’s life. Of the memories I have of John Lynn – several really stand out…I vaguely recall a story of John Lynn taking the PFAL class at home by himself – I think the PFAL class was mailed to his home? – not sure on that. Anyway – as the story goes, he started off listening to the last session first (the session wierwille leads the class into speaking in tongues). That always stuck with me because it shows he was the type of person who was adventurous and would go all in – even if it was something new and different. I think fundamentally, that is part of what makes someone a good leader – someone who can inspire …influence…guide others through their own lifestyle. Like Paw said “he led the charge against the way. Opened the eyes of many”. Maybe some of John Lynn’s legacy is reflected in what Grease Spot means to me. For me it continues to be an adventurous journey and as far as checking out new and different perspectives – I’m all in. Another thing that makes a good leader is being genuine. I think his enthusiasm was genuine and I loved his down-to-earth sense of humor – there was no pretension about being a perfect believer – his personal stories were relatable to many experiences I’ve had. He was passionate about what he preached – and I know I’ve commented about him being a good salesman – but even though I was never interested in some of what he said after leaving TWI – I’d give him a five-star rating for also being an honest salesman, who believed in “the product” – used it himself and thought it would help others. Way back in 83 / 84 he and his wife were going around doing Way Corps promos. After being at one of those promos and hearing John’s laid back and humorous sales pitch, I was pretty much sold on going into the corps. His wife Pat came to our home one day while I was at work. My wife was usually so uptight and nervous around any TWI-leadership – but Tonto told me she wasn’t around Pat. After seeing that Pat was easygoing and friendly – just like John , Tonto was pretty much sold on going into the corps too. It’s kind of jarring to me anytime I hear of someone I knew in TWI passing away. Especially if I didn’t see things eye to eye with them. Maybe it’s incongruous with being a human being. That's why I said at first a memorial is a time to set aside our differences and instead talk about how we're connected as human beings in some cosmic synchronicity sort of way. There’s more to life than just arguing over Bible stuff. I get into doctrine and practice debates and forget that it’s human beings on the receiving end of my words – or that I’m receiving transmissions from other fellow human beings in cyberspace. Life is about human beings – each of us on a self-determined journey. ( Note to self: Inform SETI I will be taking a sabbatical to search for life among human beings...my way of honoring John Lynn's sense of humor ) I pray for God to supply comfort and strength to his family, friends, and fans. (after posting this I thought of his sister Judy several times. Her and her husband Ken we’re in Family 12 when we were in our 2nd year as Family 11; I remember Judy as having a quick wit and electrifying personality just like her brother)

Rocky thanks for that You Tube ! My wife recently read her book and shared a lot of scary stuff about her experience...Tonto and I will make some time to catch that interview - and I'd better get my a$$ in gear and catch up on my reading list so I can read her book too.

my sentiments exactly Rocky I wish for comfort and strength to his family, friends and fans sincerely, T-Bone

I love the Shining reference! Funny!!! (instead of saying Redrum try saying Drambuie backwards ) I don’t recall that though - we were Family Corps 11… however my wife Tonto was assigned to grounds for her last corps assignment work block; among other tasks they also mowed; I asked her about the maze of hedges and she said there wasn’t a maze but down by “the nuns’ wading pool” ( that’s what they called it) the pool was surrounded by tall shrubs.

Yeah me too