doojable

Oh I don't expect him to change... That's between him and God. There are always folks that get hurt in this kind of debate. I guess I'm getting a sense of something I just can't quite find the right words to describe. I'll try: The women who were raped were victims of rape. The women who were willing participants were also victims of a different kind. Even women who were recruiters to find yet more women, were victims.... I know this isn't the popular opinion, but to be so obsessed with power that you'll do ANYTHING to attain it... Evil? Perhaps. But at one time these women started out with stars in their eyes and the hopes of finding a closer walk with God. They got led astray as well. It may not be the popular thing to do, but I feel compassion for them as well. Poop flows downhill and everyone in the path gets covered in it.

WTH - there are two distinct groups of women we are discussing here. Some (NOT ALL) of the women were willing participants in vp's sexual misconduct. That is not being discussed here. Was it wrong? Yes. Could vp still have turned them away? (Assuming that he had been a different type man.) Yes. Did he turn them down? No. Why did they do what they did? Who knows. We can speculate but the fact will still remain that every time he and one of these women were in a room together there were two people there who both had the ability to say,"No." He didn't. He was the MOG. He was the elder. He was also the one teaching that it was okay. So who were they to argue? I do hold him to a higher standard, because it was his teaching. If one of them had walked right up to him naked and said, "Take me! Take me right here and now!" he should walked away. Hey! We were talking about vows... what about his vow of marriage to Mrs. W.? That was his vow. BUT- as to the women who were drugged, and raped: they are absolutely NOT women that you can say 'were asking for it.' Or are you going to suggest that a rape victim has sinned?

We were supposed to "Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and greed need." Vp said something to the effect of us being all just twig leaders... no matter at what level we served it was just a twig leader with more responsibility. Now I need that barf emoticon....

LCM started this kick sometime while I was in residence (and vp was still alive.) He said that anytime you said you would do something it was a 'vow.' He especially hated it when a couple announced their engagement and then broke it off. "When thou vowest a vow..." So, if you said you'd stop at the store on your way home, you broke a vow because you didn't keep your word. "Say what you mean and mean what you say..." Sooo... when you said you were going in residence - that was to be taken as a vow. No of raising your right hand was necessary. It was manipulation. It most likely was used to guilt many into doing something they didn't want to do.

"Looking for trouble.." Hmmmm. This statement betrays your sentiments. A woman with boundary issues would have wanted (very naively) to go back simply because he said, "I could have screwed you, but I didn't." She would have wanted to prove to herself that he was still a good man; that he was still the MOG that she believed him to be. She could have rationalized to herself that he "showed restraint." Perhaps she originally wanted to confront him and then somehow convinced herself that he wouldn't do it again. Suppose she just lost her nerve about confronting him. Edited because I started to write this post in the sense of "what if I had been Marsha..."

I'm attacking your statements. I don't know you well enough to attack you personally. The point remains that vp rape victims. He encouraged others. Just because there (may have been )many women that wanted to have sex with him doesn't mean he had a good excuse to drop his pants. It certainly doesn't excuse him at all from drugging and raping any woman at any time. NOW- if he had to drug ANY WOMAN - that would indicate that she wasn't a willing participant, wouldn't it? You're still making concessions for vp. Why can't you just come out and say that he was wrong?

Excesses? Umm there's an interesting euphemism... You like to cite Solomon a lot. I'm not sure, but I don't believe that Solomon had a Biblical directive to have only one wife. (1 Tim 3:2,12 and Titus 1:6) were in the KJV when VP was commiting these acts. IIRC,Solomon took wives because he was making deals with pagan countries. The point that was lost on you was that no matter how Marsha acted, had vp been a man of integrity, had he lived up to the standard that he claimed to uphold, then even if Marsha herself had put the drugs in her drink, she should have been escorted politely home. So now you argue that 'she went back." Well if he had been a man of integrity, the door to the motorcoach would not have been opened to her. I'm not saying that Marsha wanted or asked for what happened to her. I don't believe she did. Now, let's get to another point. I have a feeling that some women (NOT those saying they were raped) did feel empowered by the attention of the alleged MOG. I'd wager money that some of these women even believed they were in love with him and he with them. That doesn't change the impropriety of vp's behaviour. He was nearly 35 years older than most of them. These were "his keeds." Some women are taught at an early age to use sex as a weapon and bargaining tool. How does that exonerate vp from what he must have known was wrong?

But Now I See< Please - how much tequilla in the "Tequilla Lime Chicken" and what is the :"Lemon Vinagrette" in the "Parmesan Chicken" The recipes look really good!

Thank you Ala - you may not like this next one as much - it's edgy DC Talk - "Jesus Freak"

I think that ANY abortion that is forced or coerced is wrong. Regardless of the issue, coercion is wrong - is it not? coerce (From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary) co·erce Pronunciation: \kō-ˈərs\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): co·erced; co·erc·ing Etymology: Middle English cohercen, from Anglo-French *cohercer Latin coercēre, from co- + arcēre to shut up, enclose — more at ark Date: 15th century 1 : to restrain or dominate by force <religion in the past has tried to coerce the irreligious — W. R. Inge> 2 : to compel to an act or choice <was coerced into agreeing 3 : to achieve by force or threat <coerce compliance> synonyms see force — co·erc·ible \-ˈər-sə-bəl\ adjective

And women who are afraid of "Godly consequences" don't... Besides, some of these women weren't even in the corps yet. They were apprentice corps. When I went in rez I don't remember the apprentice year as being part of the commitment. I heard LCM change that during my first year in. He said that too many were signing up and then not following through. On another note...suppose some of these women were "exhorted" to have an abortion under the auspices of their commitment while it was because the daddy didn't want an illegitimate child running around. I know I can't verify - but it is food for thought.

Lifted - I'm not sure I understand? Let me put this in my words and you tell me if I get your point. I see abortion as the ending of a life. We actually had this discussion in the summer in another forum. So, as long as I am consistent and I don't just save my indignation for TWI and VP then my strike zone is consistent, I meet your "sticking point." Right?

I haven't been here in a while. Here's a song my kids like."Bubbly" - Colbie Caillat

Jonny - NO. That poem was recited on "All Aboard" The album where VP did that poem along with others to a musical background. IF the proper credits are on that album - then that may be the reason why some know the name of the author. I never owned the album - so I don't know. I bet White Dove has the answer... maybe you do.. I'm not saying the author wasn't given credit. I'm speculating why there seems to be confusion on the matter.

How wonderful that you understand her.

Go to your Cd's. Pick one out where someone has done a cover song. Right there you'll see who the writer is. It's called honesty. Yes, it can be argued that it is motivated by money through royalties, but it is also giving credit to the talent behind the song.

Nero - welcome back to the the world of free speech... It can get rough because we all get to say what we like, (even if no one else likes it.) Be creative and let the fur fly - in the shape of a cross OR a Buddha.

You might be walking by the five senses... If you smell fruit before you buy it, instead of trying to get revelation about what to buy. If you see a parking spot right in front of the grocery store and decide to take it. If you hear someone cough and decide that you might want to use that hand sanitizer in your purse instead of just "believing" you won't get sick. If you taste thinned out coffee in an old styrofoam cup and spit it out. (Add seeing the old lipstick stains that didn't come off with the first ten washings.) If being in a cult just feels wrong.

DUH! The complaint is NOT what didn't ever even have to be the original teaching. "The original teaching" was common sense (or common knowlege if you want to use johniam's phrase.) The complaint is in the manipultation by guilt. You tell a Christian they're not walking spiritually... a cultie taught to "not ask how high" when a MOG makes a "suggestion that is tantamount to an order"... Recipe for manipulation.

The practice was started right after POP. I bet you can find people who said they were supposed to avoid a certain leader because he was seed.

It was JD Sumner: And this was recorded towards the end of his life, so you can just imagine how it sounded when he was younger. VP would have heard this.

John - yes that is how it was taught. The teaching morphed and became a bludgeon used to control people. I remember people trying it with me. By that time though, I had one foot out the door, so I didn't care what they thought. Basically, if you decided to do anything, (even if you had prayed about it and were sure that you were doing what God wanted,) and some leader wanted you to do something else, you were "going by your five senses." The phrase was used to manipulate people by guilt.

heheheheheh...

There was an old Gospel singer... from the Cathedrals... I forget his name... but he did that poem. When I heard it I KNEW where vp got the idea.

My oldest invented a "Doggy Doorbell" It rang when the dog stepped near the door to let us know she wanted to go out. It was pressure sensitive. It stopped her from scratching the door. Tell him to find a problem around the house and try to think of a way to fix it. Perhaps something having to do with the birds... I always hated the mess under and around the bird cage myself.