doojable

We're praying for him David.

That's what I was initially referring to... That was the training in being a doulos dontcha know... You had to keep a careful watch on him and if his finger tapped his plate... or his coffee cup... you had better know if one tap meant "more" or "take this away."Did he have his own food taster as well?

OK rhino I'll concede that it wasn't all paramilitary - then again it got worst when the whole mal-pac thing started. It wasn't so much the military elements as it was this underlying mentality that we had to be ready for anything. I don't know how to put it into words really... just a constant sense of urgency. Now I look back and realize I wasn't ready at all - not even close. Then I thought it was all life and death.

Yes..... but.... We were told we were in a spiritual battle and we needed to be toughened up to face the enemy. From what I hear we weren't even well prepared for anything close to a battle at all. No real Biblical training either. We were supposed to be leaders of God's people. All the runs, aerobic points, classes, LEAD, work, etc., etc., etc.... were supposed to be preparing us for service. Looking back it wasn't really a college. We took one class at a time and had no real homework. There were no real tests to speak of - no real academics. Then there was the constant introductions of military elements: gun training, lock box, following orders, etc. I hear boot camp is much worst. I wouldn't know. On the other hand - boot camp only lasts 6 weeks. We got this a year at a time for two years. The good moments came from the individuals we met and the friendships we made. Unfortunately we were taught that we had no friends when it came to the Word and eventually many of us even distrusted the few friends we did have.

Gotta be a good steward....PUKE! SPIT!

The bottom line is that DEATH IS AN ENEMY. This teaching about a "peaceful death" is offensive to me in so many ways I don't know where to begin... WHO determines what a "peaceful death" is? Some MOG in an office that has been served hand and foot and claims to be standing for God while he destroys lives? Just how peaceful can his own life be? Elitism in death...pffffffffft! Then of course - there's Jesus Christ - I guess he wasn't standing for God because he got beaten and tortured beyond recognition. All but a few of the apostles died horrible deaths. As I recall, Jesus said that many of his disciples would face pain because of their stand. Then there are the men and women who fight for their country and see things while they are alive that no one should ever see in their lifetime, let alone how some of these men and women die. You may not agree with a particular war but you still have to admire any person who will put their lives on the line for their fellow men. Children in cancer wards die. Teens die in car wrecks. What about those various shootings at churches and schools? Who wants to be the MOG that stands up and talks about how ungodly their lives were? Veins popping and venom spewing. This is rejoicing in fabricated iniquity just to puff up an ego and promote an ungodly doctrine. IMO this is far worst than the "God needs a rose petal in heaven" teaching. People die. It wasn't bad enough that TWI taught it's followers to judge how everyone lives, they also feel the need to judge how they die. Then they do a nice teaching on "The Hope"... Ala - I am sorry for not only your loss and your sister's loss as well.

Beat me now... I had the job of engraving those darned things at Korps week and ROA. I even got to make the nametags that needed "Rev." added to the name. :ph34r: We did pray for each person as we made them...

Congratulations Ex70's

I just thought that this warranted repeating.

You insist on cherry picking the facts...

Those are TOES you mook! (said with a grin )

I found my quote from the book Here I was wrong about the ditches from that quote in the film (on page 177,) but there is another reference not used in the film: The quote from the book is there along with other points. It's a bit more gruesome than I want to post. BTW - If you've ever been to a bonfire, you know how hot a big pile of wood can get. Oh - one more thing WTH: There's more at the link to refute the claims of that film. I suggest reading it thoroughly.

Okay - I'm not sure if I read that page correctly, so I'm looking for a better look at the quote. I may have misread how the ditches were used - but I have no context to judge - so I'm still researching. I did find this quote: The Final Solution Like I said, there were a lot of ways used to kill the prisoners. And this still begs the question as to WHY it is acceptable to anyone that all these people were rounded up like cattle, imprisoned, and killed. Treblinka Apparently the diesel fumes were popular: Diesel fumes are...umm... GAS. It doesn't have to be cyanide gas.

Here is a list of current Date Rape Drugs On the site the effect of the drugs are listed. I suspect the "enhanced sexual desire" is not on the part of the woman because she's been given something to knock her out.

WTH - when they take a look at the book - there is a line that is ignored....and ithe word "ditch" is there. I don't know how to get a still of it and I have to watch it again to get the precise wording. I'll get it later.

That was nice! I kinda know how he does it....it doesn't make it any less amazing. :B)

Larry, In my post I explained my anger and I apologized for the only part where I felt I crossed the line. The rest of that post was directed to johniam. Oldies only apologized 'for the blanket statement "any guy who disputes this is either lying or gay"' and then went on to post the rest of his argument in other posts. Your disappointment is not my problem. I'm not really looking for your approval. Some think I didn't need to apologize at all. I did what I believed was the right thing to do. You can call it rationalization - but that doesn't make it so. I'll put that post here so that others can judge for themselves. Given the age of most of the 'young women' that vp took advantage of, I thought first and foremost of an older teen/young woman - 17-21. I was thinking of a High School and early college. I should have specified that in my post. I wasn't accusing Oldies of being a pedophile, but as the mother of two girls, one of them a teen, I naturally had a knee-jerk reaction. Oldies, I apologize. I should have been more specific and clear headed in my wording. I was and still am deeply offended by this post. That is no excuse for how I worded my own post to you. johniam, You said this: There is quite a difference between a mature adult female and a young woman. My teen is a young lady (she is a lady and not just a female or woman.) I already explained my thinking at the time of the post. I never mean to imply "young girls." Now just what are you implying here? I apologized. Can you? I did post right after this. I offer no apologies for that next post. I said clearly that I was deeply offended by Oldies's post and I too continued making my point.

"Took the coward's way out"? This is simply not the way I see things at all. You fought to find out why that inner voice was screaming at the top of it's lungs. You went against "company policy" at TWI to find out wtf was going on. You tried to hold a marriage together and in the midst of it all, while you were struggling to keep all your balls in the air, someone threw a hand grenade at you. It's not cowardly to be smart.

Actually, in a court of law he is NOT considered innocent at all. He's was simply not charged. "Innocent" does not equal "Not Guilty. If he had been charged he would have most likely been found guilty, but if the jury was all tripping on LSD perhaps at most they would have found him NOT guilty. Juries don't really declare innocence. "

MOIST - therefore there is MORE water in the leg of lamb than there would be in a ematiated body. DUH! A DITCH! NOT under pylons in on flat land so that wind could blow the heat out. Smell could carry on any slight breeze. I'm not qualified to discuss the Zylon. I'm honest enough to not try.

I was thinking along these lines today.... C.S. Lewis wrote, The Problem of Pain... I haven't read it yet, but the title causes me to think a lot about that phrase, "just get over it." I've been told that artists shouldn't try to discuss and describe pain. But here I am...doing just that. I'm a rebel at heart. ;) Pain. We all have experienced pain of some sort in our lives - physical pain, emotional pain - it all hurts. You cut your finger and it bleeds. You react with some expletive, stick the finger in your mouth, taste a drop of blood, and wait for the pain to end. If that cut is deep enough you get a band-aide. If it's deeper still, you get stitches. Way too deep and you may lose the finger altogether. It all hurts. Different people tolerate pain more or less than others, but we all feel it. The same is true of emotional pain. The first time a friend didn't invite you to a party, or when you got dumped by a boyfriend or girlfiend in middle school, or the loss of a dear friend or friends or a soulmate or a parent, or a deep betrayal by someone you loved and trusted. It all hurts. It ALL hurts... We would never dream of telling a 1 year old to "just get over it" (Come on! That doesn't hurt! What's wrong with you?) when he cries after falling while trying to learn to walk. I dare say we all would be appalled to hear an adult even try that. Instead we pick the tike up, comfort and sooth him, and send him on his way to try again - and fall again. In this case, the pain helps the learning process. (Geez! I better learn to walk 'cuz I don't want to do THAT again!) Now, if you take that toddler and start carrying him so that he never falls again, if you try to keep all hurt from happening - you'll do more harm than good. Likewise if you find a way to constantly remind him of that pain so that the pain becomes more important than his natural development (walking) then you also are harming that child. Yet we try to take a person in pain and tell them to "just get over it" already... I see pain like a tunnel that must be entered, traversed and exited out the other side. It's dark, cold, lonely. If I don't enter the tunnel - I'm stuck crawling in immaturity. If I get stuck in that tunnel - I remain dark, cold and lonely. I've got to go through it to get out. It's a tricky thing to "help" someone with their pain. There's no way to determine how long that tunnel is and you really can't make the journey for another person. Likewise, you can't push a person through that tunnel of pain. You can encourage , empathize, comfort them even - but you can't make the journey for them and you can't give them an express ticket out. The trick is to not make it too easy for them to begin to LIKE that tunnel and start to set up a home there. I have some painful things in my past that I have shared with a select few people. Other things I haven't shared with anyone - ever. Every now and then, something comes along and reminds me of that pain. I may take a moment to shed a tear or a day to cry and mourn - but then I get up and keep moving forward. Some things come up more often. In the end, I still need to keep moving through that tunnel. Lastly, pain is personal. What hurts me deeply may just be a "owwie" to you. We all tolerate emotional pain just as differently as we tolerate physical pain. We all have different thresholds. I have to make sure that I'm not trying to rush the process because that person's tunnel is just too dark and scary for me. And... I also check myself to make sure that I am actually helping a person move through that tunnel and not making it easier for them to furnish the place. I don't like the idea that all my efforts to comfort are in fact hurting someone. So, sometimes I don't say, "There there, come cry on my shoulder." Sometimes I put on my clown suit and stand a little further down the tunnel and shout, "Hey! Look what I can do! Come and get me!" Hopefully that person will chase me and get away from that old smelly moldy couch and get a little further closer to the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm sure I botch it up as often as I help. Hopefully, in the end, I help someone get through it and not yell at them to "just get over it."

Nicole, I am sorry to say that I did not know your father or mother. I do see their stellar qualities in the way you just presented yourself here on this thread. You have wisdom because you have already begun to put your past in perspective. As to sharing your past with people you don't know - I'm sure your wisdom will tell you what is right for you at that time and with that particular person. I used to say nothing at all. Now I tell people who ask that I was involved in a cult. I laugh and move on. Your situation is much different. It's a credit to your parents that you can look back on those years and have fond memories. Thank you for being so open and honest.

Thanks Rocky! I'm thankful every day for these two. In a way, they complete me. It's great to get to see them blossoming right before my eyes. Children help put life in perspective. So many things that seem so important pale in comparison, yet so many other things gain significance because I want them to be more have more, do more than I ever accomplished.

Okay - I get to brag... I got a text today from The Original Dooj (henceforth known as TOD) "I got first place for my Imagination Celebration design!" Several texts later ...(Wow!, Cool!, When do I get to see it?, etc. etc....) I got a call from her on her lunch break. She apparently didn't win for the district but took first place for her school. This is a big deal for her. Usually the winning designs get posted on buses around town. I'm not sure if this is the case this year. There is a special presentation on Nov 6. I'll get photos and post when I can. As for her sister.... Heeeee I got a letter in the mail telling me that she has achieved academic excellence and has been accepted for an entry in a national "Who's Who of Middle School Students." I'm so excited for them! To say I'm proud would be an understatement.

Not all blame. Although you have also said, In the above statement you imply (IMHO) that vp already knew his weakness here. I'm suggesting that rather than seek to control himself he sought to explore his lusts. He looked for an end run around God's Word. So here we have a man in his sixties. He goes to Haight-Ashbury and tries to find some Christians into orgies (I'm really over-simplifying here - so someone please correct me if I'm way off base.) It's that time in the late '70's when there was a "sexual revolution." The atmosphere is ripe for an older "Father in the Word" figure to be able to convince young people already prone to bucking the system, that they could have sex with anyone as long as they could handle it and were spiritual enough. He taught that one part of the body was the same as any other part of the body. Adults do know this. Young adults are more prone to bend rules. That's why vp was so happy to have found this group. I'm not suggesting that these young women are not to be held accountable for their actions. I'm certain that they have had to face more than their share of guilt, shame, self-doubt, and condemnation in their lives. Hopefully they have been able to seek forgiveness and peace. Okay. Let's try the reverse then. Jesus: Victor - did you have have sex with women who weren't your wife? vp - Yes. Jesus - Did you know that adultery is wrong. vp - Yes. Jesus - Did you teach them it was alright to do this? vp - Yes. But I also knew that all women belong to the King. Jesus - I'm the King. I paid for those dear ones with my blood. They never belonged to you. vp - hunh! I never really thought of it that way... Jesus - Did you also drug young women and rape them while they were unconscious from those drugs? vp- Yes. Jesus - But you knew this wasn't what is written. You taught a lie and you acted on a lie. You knew this was wrong and you acted as a spokesman to teach something other than the truth. Why did you do this? vp - They made it easy for me. They wanted to bless me. I told them what would bless me. Jesus -Those women you raped....they weren't blessed. *rolls eyes* but as long as you were blessed that must make it all okay.... ****************************************************************** Vp knew much more and acted with stealth and intent. In fact let's quote what they used to teach in twi - "the more you know, the more you are responsible for." I think the Bible says something to the effect that to him who much is given, much will be required.