doojable

I need to make one more point. This man was NEVER morally upright. He was only "morally upright" in your eyes because the sheep's clothing had not yet slipped to reveal the slime inside. He was hiding behind his reputation. He was hoping that your radar was down. His moral depravity showed it's face when he asked you for the permission to make your daughter "his lady." At *best* that can mean that he wanted to court her. At worst - well - you get the picture, and it ain't pretty. No matter what, the guy believed he was asking for something that was completely inappropriate. He was hiding behind his status just like VP hid, just like lcm hid, just like so many others hid. I'm not saying this to only you, Rascal. I'm saying this because it's so easy to not see the crap that can get dumped at our doorstep.

Uhhhhh..... Mr. Kettle, Mr. Kettle? Mr. Pot is calling you with a message.....something about ... obfuscation..

"I'm trav'ling at the speed of light I wanna' make a supersonic man outta you!"

"I'm burning through the sky (yea) 200 degrees, that's why they call me Mr. Farenheit"

I know that this forum is "About the Way" and GSC is about "The other side of the story...", but in this matter I'm gonna say - don't stop at VP. I don't see the "even more so." I don't see a real difference between a minister using the scriptures to manipulate a person and an instructor using his respected status to manipulate. In both cases a person's sense of security and self worth are being manipulated. A minister with scriptures - any minister - would be reprehensible. A teacher, instructor, military leader, politician, boss, man, woman, butcher, baker, candlestick maker are all wrong, all in the same boat of farging sick bastages.

Ohhhh! Americas/Neck /Stop/Mad/Doll "America's Next Top Model"

"We Won't Get Fooled Again" (no no!) by The Who

Terence Trent d'Arby - "If You Let Me Stay"

I'm right there with ya! My two gals did a short duet piano arrangement for a recital. And Chas - I stand corrected once again... maybe I'll just let the musicians talk about music...LOL!

Krys is absolutely correct... Listen to these selected cuts and I believe you'll hear the piece you're looking to name: Handel's Water Music At the top of the page is a "Listen" button. It will allow you to listen to snippets without having to buy. By the way, it's delightful! I need to own this! It's selection #17 -Suite in D Major: Alla Hornpipe

Well I showed my ignorance... sorry about that. It's sounds so familiar to me that I can't believe that I don't know this one.

This may be it: Okay - sorry Steve!.It sounded like a different arrangement of it, but with more strings...I've heard it before... dang I hate when this happens.

From the little I could hear, it sounded like "Cannon in D" by Pachelbel I'll try to find more to let you hear it.

...Not to mention that they didn't even give themselves a name... they took the title and reputation that they had gained in the first cult... So they say that they left Egypt, but in reality they really just brought Egypt along for the ride.

I'm not willing to join an offshoot to do the research. ;) I sincerely hope that any leader of any organization takes their responsibility seriously and makes doggone (sorry T-Bone ) sure that there is a GOOD way to insure that predatory behavior will be dealt with soundly and immediately.

"Angel of the Morning"?? by Maureen McGovern

Rascal - I'm going to assume that you're willing to make a distinction between the leaders and the followers (UGH! I don't like that term - but it seems to apply) of these offshoots. I agree wholeheartedly that these offshoots were started too quickly. They sought to strike while the iron was hot to get the most of the "Great Escape from TWI." Paul took 14 years to change his habits, his patterns, to learn and grow. He didn't go from being a member of the Sanhedrin (I think he was a member - someone correct me if I'm wrong) to being the Apostle Paul overnight. Anyway, back to the topic at hand...

Okay, the word is out ROCKY CAN DANCE!

Rascal, You know, I can see how that applied in TWI. However, for the most part, the folks in these offshoots have already walked from one organization. The hold of "God won't spit in your direction" doesn't really apply - or shouldn't apply IMHO. I'm not judging - or at least trying not to judge. BUT when I left TWI and then got involved in a small and insignificant offshoot, walking away from them was a lot easier. For one, I already had experiential knowledge that I wasn't going to start drooling in a rubber room somewhere and horns weren't going to sprout. No one was going to die because I left a man-made organization in my quest for spiritual knowledge. I do understand boundaries being broken down and erased. But not everyone in TWI or in the offshoots had those issues. It seems to me that the strong can be examples for those who don't see their way clear. Isn't that why the friends of an abused woman circle the wagons around her? She kicks and screams, gets angry and even accuses the people wanting to protect her of hurting her. If they are smart they don't listen - they just do what they know is right. They are strong for her because she doesn't have the resources to be strong for herself. The problem is that for some strange reason when the subject of God enters the picture everyone wants to take a hands-off approach. "It's their walk," and all that sort of BS. Life has continuity. Life is fluid. The lessons we learn in one area we are to take to the other areas of our lives. I've seen it in what I teach. I've seen it in teaching kids in general. It's a big mistake IMHO to draw walls around the lessons we learn. (This is my "God room" with it's lessons, this is my "Family room" with it's lessons.... etc.)

There is always one recourse - WALK! You have to be willing to walk away from the table, the deal, the organization.

I don't know if this applies or not...so it may in fact be, But I think it will apply at some level - so here goes... Yesterday I got a call from my tearful older daughter. She wanted "to talk to her Mommy," as she put it. All I could get out of her was something about her boyfriend and this other girl (I'll call her "G") who had recently ended a relationship with an abusive young man. I won't go into details - there was some of the usual drama that is typical for High School - but one line stood out - "G" was angry because my daughter stood up for herself and reported "G's" boyfriend for making a verbal threat. (He said he would hurt her and kill her boyfriend.) This guy went on to "pants" "G's" sister in the locker room. For that second act in combination with the first act, he got sent to another school. So, "G" blamed my daughter for breaking them up. She said that she was half of the reason that her boyfriend got in trouble. I STOPPED THE CONVERSATION RIGHT THERE. I explained the following: "G's" boyfriend made the bad decisions. It is never wrong to defend yourself. It is wrong to allow an abuser to keep on abusing. We then went on to discuss victim mentality and how the abused often blame anyone that try to help them. We talked about how secrecy and cover-ups allow this to continue. We talked about the manipulation and control that abusers are skilled at using to spin their web. Gladly, my daughter already knew this - but girls around her were trying to make her feel bad for speaking up for herself. All I needed to do was put the whole thing in perspective for her. I'd say that one of the first things to do when getting involved with any organization is to not only see if "they have made any processes for handling grievances or issues with leaders," but also to see if these processes are all talk. Ask enough questions to see if the process is real or just on paper.

ob-fus-cate 1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy. 2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information. 3. to darken.

Ahhhh - but he did that before he himself became a Christian. He didn't continue to murder after he converted. Paul didn't add "young sex" to the sin of murder. Paul didn't run from that sin - he openly admitted it and repented of it. I don't recall any scripture ever saying that Paul had gotten to the place where "he could spiritually handle" murder. Nor, do I recall any place that he then added the sin of adultery. OR- are you stating that there really are degrees of sin? (Well Paul murdered... but VP only committed adultery - in the name of God.) Maybe you should google a definition of "obfuscate..." I bet your picture is right next to the word.

"American Idol"? (Though I only can put it together with the "America" and "Doll")

Thunder seems to have cleared.... Sunny skies ahead. :)