doojable

This should sound familiar:

What a legacy from a so-called Christian minister. VP started this. He taught it to Loy. So those of you that sit at your computers and smugly shrug and say, "Huh... I had a good time and learned some mightee fine Baaah-bull," should consider that the seedy underbelly of that teaching involved the carnage of souls, the dismantlement of marriages and the strip mining of families. ...and to the "victoid" went the spoils.

Oh good gawd! Now all I can think about is how "retro" the offshoots are. You know - like the resurgence of hula hoops, go-go boots, troll dolls, pet rocks. It's almost as if I can hear JAL saying, "Hurree, hurree, hurree... Step right up and be the first on your block to get a green card. And if you're one of the first, I'll throw in one of these other fine gifts."

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...st&p=394821

Thank you Krys. Take your time. I want to repeat something that I hinted at on another thread. Women were not the only ones victimized by der victoid and his teachings regarding "servicing the man of gawd." Men were victims as well. Just how would a man handle knowing that his wife had that "special calling?" How would he feel knowing that his new "spiritual assignment" had become "cuckold." And what about the children? They had absolutely no power in this mess. All they could do was ride the see-saw. I have a knot in the pit of my stomach. What sick SOB's.

No. It would still be a discussion board. Debate would still be allowed - with the the exception of when a victim is relating her (or his) story. I added "his" because the husbands of these women (like P All3n and others) are/were victims as well. I think the consensus is that anyone can discuss all they want - but not on those threads.

From Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards:

Lucy - Really? This would be funny if it weren't so sad.

LVP - consider that you come across as being rather prickly in the first post where you started asking questions. It may not have been your intent- but to my "ear" it sounded like you were railing against anyone that didn't do as you did. There is a lot of self-righteous pride in the "sound" of your post. I'm hoping that you're just writing off the top of your head and not implying that you were stronger or better or holier than those that did something different. TWI was a different beast to different people. Add to that the fact that those who tried to expose any secret were summarily dismissed and defamed. Can you find a way to back off on the righteous indignation and ask some simpler questions without the editorial? It would go a long way towards you getting some answers instead of griping and sniping.

Oh there was some pretty good pot... I guess he was over the rainbow, wasn't he... but he made some mighty fine Skittles... ;) Who said I was trying to be profound? Did you use your best Munchkin voice when you sang that song? The ruby slippers? Trash 'em. The glitter gets in the carpet anyway. Glenda? Pop her bubble. And get her surgery to fix her voice so she doesn't sound all "watery." It's just a movie... <_< The point was that if you think about it, we really didn't follow der victoid - we followed our friends - because well, they were our friends. We didn't start out *following* him - we were delivered at his feet and thought that's where we should stay.

Everybody sing! The Scarecrow, the TinMan and the Cowardly Lion had no interest in traveling anywhere until they met Dorothy and befriended her. They decided to follow her to see the Wizard because they believed she had a worthy cause - to get home without being harmed by the Wicked Witch of the West. They didn't give a rip about the Wizard. They wanted to help their friend and hoped there would be something for them at the end of the road as well. They took up her cause. So they all travel on to see the Wizard and get an assignment - go Kill that Witch. (Ummm... he was the Wizard- why didn't he do that himself? but I digress) Now, they've taken up the Wizard's cause- in order to help Dorothy with her cause - getting home. Once they were done with their assignment they nearly were dismissed - until that smart little canine had the audacity to expose the man behind the curtain. But it was all a dream... I was thinking today that although we *say* we followed the Cornfield Wiz, we really didn't. We followed our friends, loved ones and those we trusted. We took up their cause and mixed it with our own (to be loved, holy, "right" - put your cause in here.) What we found, complete with that damned skinny tie and slick hair, was der Victoid. We were delivered at his feet by the Wonder Class (thanks Waysider ;)) We had our assignments. Endless assignments. We had our Wicked Adversary (and anyone that opposed the Wizard was a flying monkey.) And it was all a nightmare...

Interesting that you should say all this. When I teach how to access R-mode (the right brain or alpha mode) I frequently tell my students not to speak while they draw. Language is a function of the left brain and for most folks the left brain is so dominant that it will supply symbols instead of letting the right brain look for the "real" image. Once a person practices this kind of shift it becomes easier to make this shift even while speaking - hence "brainstorming" can be possible. I've had the experience of drawing in front of the class in a particular way (blind contour drawing - in which I never take my eyes off the object I'm drawing - never look at the drawing until it is finished.) I'll try to speak and tell the class what I'm doing and invariably my voice trails off and I cannot finish until the drawing is done. It's a shift that is very apparent when you see it or feel it. It's not that you can't hear language - just that it feels like you'd have to swim through mud to go *all the way over there* to get the 'language decoder' and then *all the way over there* to pick up words just so you can answer the question. I usually tell folks that when I'm drawing or painting not to expect an answer or a conversation. In life I'm not nearly as good with verbal skills. I tend to see things in images and try to speak too quickly to get those images into words - so I get tangled up with language. I'll post a really good description of the shift from L-mode to R-mode soon. I think most folks have experienced it but just don't know what or why it happens. At some point it becomes possible to shift quickly from L to R-mode and back without going through an exercise. Now you have both halves of the brain working to solve a problem. Now you have "creative problem solving skills." They need to be sharpened and used. The left brain still needs logic and data and will almost "feed" the right brain this data while the right brain processes as many possible solutions as possible. At least, this is how I've experienced how the process works in drawing and other areas of life. Once again - I hope this makes some sense. .

WD said: I said: Then WD said: You got a little mixed up there. Lost your place in your thought processes, didn't you? It seems you can't even get YOU to agree with YOU. I think that's what happens when you keep running in the same rut over and over without ever considering any other POV or any other solution.

WD - you really can't defend against this logic. And regarding O.J. Simpson - you have a real problem. He was found guilty in at least one court. Are you implying that having the best defense money can buy proves innocence? I'd also like to see how you answer Abi's question. Would you push the issue with Nicole Brown Simpson's family? What about Ron Goldman's family? You may know some that have been falsely accused and have been punished - but that is not enough to justify your actions on this board.

No problem. :)

I understand what JSN is saying and what you're saying as well Excie. You're saying that the very beginnings of the cult were evil and will always the same. I posted the quote : "Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it." --- George Santana That's a valid point and reason to post. So is the need to heal, vent, talk. JSN is saying that if there is a concern about those involved in TWI now that there may need to be some tweaking to address the cult as it is now. Perhaps there are two prongs to the same mission?

This is not the scene I intended to show, but it was entitled "Brainstorming, Active Listening, Facillitation" which are all components in creative problem solving and I would assume are necessary in developing in critical thinking skills. Here is the scene I noted in my earlier post: Actually, I highly recommend watching (owning!) the movie. It's full of this kind of thinking. One thing I noted - problems were identified and openly discussed. If a problem is hidden there is no hope of solution. I'm sure there's more... but I'll wait for someone smarter than I am to comment first.

Thank you, WhiteDove for helping us review history so that we will not repeat it and keep our kids safe from cult-like thinking. Now - leave the victims alone when they tell their story.

Interesting set of questions: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/faqprotect.html 1. Who is the leader? What are his/her background and qualifications? VPW was at the time. Now we know his qualifications and background were phoney. 2. Are there exclusive claims made to wisdom, knowledge, love, and truth? Yes 3. Is total submission and obedience required? Yes 4. Does he/she have a criminal record, a legacy of allegations against him/her or a history of misconduct? Yep 5. Does the leader demonstrate psychological problems and awareness of their existence? Yep- but it was hidden in a lock-box. 6. Are questions and doubts permitted within the organization? Nope. 7. Is the organization open or closed? Are there secrets? Is there real financial accountability? If a group says that you can look at its accounting records, does it actually provide access? Secrets? Ssssshhhh ... don't want the ministry to be blamed. 8. What structural checks and balances exist within the organization to prevent abuse of power? Is there an independent "ethics" committee to challenge and change policies of the group? Checks and balances? The only check they cared about was the 15% and the balance of the bank account. After Steven Hassan, Combatting Cult Mind Control

"Those who ignore history are destined to repeat it." --- George Santana

Interesting point T-Bone. I used to coach a team with a group called Odyssey of the Mind and then with Destination Imagination. Both programs are designed to teach kids how to work as a team to learn creative problem solving skills. We were very fond of the scene in Apollo 13 where a group of scientists have to come up with a solution for a serious problem that the astronauts could implement out in space. The best part was when a box of "stuff" was dumped on the table and they were told, "This is what they have to work with." (Paraphrased - I'll try to get the specific scene since it's really cool.) Anyway, what I saw at first was that I had this team of really smart, really talented kids with a lot of skills - but they didn't know how to apply their knowledge in areas other than where they learned it. So when a musical solution was needed (like design a bunch of instruments and play a tune) it took a while for fall back on their more basic knowledge of beat, rhythm, timing, etc. Instead they complained that they needed a guitar. Once they saw that they had to MAKE it work - they were unleashed and amazing things happened. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I've found that learning to draw helps to stimulate creative problem solving skills. Here's a link: Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain There is something that artists do but don't even realize they are doing it until someone points it out to them. They use a wide variety of skills to solve a problem - but the problem is visual. It's comparable to having a variety of alternate routes to get from Point A to Point B.

The reason I posted the information on color theory and the color wheel is that this is the crux of Seurat's work. WB, I like that painting and a few of his others. He has some paintings I do not like. But this is what makes it fun to explore...

JSN - by the time I stumbled upon GSC I had been out at least 14 years. I had already read The Cult that Snapped by Karl Kahler. Actually, because of some of my experiences in TWI, I wasn't all that shocked when I read that book. It just made some things make more sense. So anyway, I was thinking about TWI and I wondered if they could possibly still be around because of some of the weird sh(t I heard back in the late 90's. (Women required to be thin, have their nails manicured weekly, showing bank statements and time logs...) Granted now I know it wasn't the same everywhere, but I just couldn't imagine anyone new looking for God and entering a home fellowhship (is that what they called it?) and saying, "OMFG! I'm home! This is what I've been searching for all my life!" Again... anyway...When I stumbled upon GSC I took the time to read the front page of the site and some of the articles. I didn't read the forums for a day or so and then it took me about another three days to sign up. Granted, I wasn't a newbie leaving the grips of the evil cult. I just wonder if most folks don't start at the front page and read the articles and listen to the podcasts before they enter the Forums.

Another logical glitch. You're taking a statement of opinion and then trying to say it's a statement of guilt, then you're working on that statement of guilt being wrong and treating real life like it's on long legal battle. (That I believe is a strawman argument - somebody correct me if I"m wrong.) Let's take Tricky vic out of the example. Let's say I'm talkng to A (fictional person) and I say, "B is a real scumbag. He tried to kiss me when my boyfriend wasn't looking. I turned my face and just walked out. I'll never be in the same room with him again." Now - that's my first hand "testimony" if you will. There is no physical evidence, because I didn't say that I slapped his face or tried to knee him in the.... If you go and ask B about the incident, there's no guarantee that he will be honest. In my statement, B is a real scumbag..." I stated my opinion of B based on my experience with him. He wasn't accused of a crime. What kind of proof would you want? A is free to accept what I say or not - but to say that I'd have to get a court finding to state my opinion is absolutely not right - I can't even see how it would work in the real world.

Here's some interesting information I just learned. I've been working with color theory for most of my life - but I never knew about the history of the color wheel