doojable

Ok I confess - I knew what I was getting into - I expected a healthy discussion. I had seen some posts of this nature but they were too old (said that already) Don't hate me for wanting to weigh in. ;) ;) I am not clear how anyone can think that PFAL is a substitute for the Word. I used to get really into word studies - and I finally had to put them down - for years. I had gotten too deep into study and had forgotten how to deal with people. So Mike those who agree with him, here's my once and for all..... stop putting all your energy into the intermediate step. It was a class, not the Word of God Himself. You would really be surprised how many Christains do just fine and even better than we do knowing much less. Maybe even because they know less. All that book knowledge just became another means of hurting people in the end. You can't help people by just reading how to study something. You have to be able to feel, empathize, sympathize - that is something God can teach you. I'm sure you know this - and you didn't need a class to teach it to you.

I am very sorry to hear that, Excathedra. I wasn't my experience. I am no fan of TWI. I just can't throw it all out since it didn't totally wreck my like. Slipping off topic - I never had to deal with the sexual abuse - I had a friend that did - but I had no idea that it was rampant. I had more problems in that category after leaving - with ex-way-clergy. THEN I understood why John S had to write a paper about adultery (seemed like it didn't really need saying - but I didn't know that anyone was condoning it) In the 10 years I was "in" overall things weren't that bad for me. Now that I read posts by others I know more than I can bear about all the abuses that went on in God's name. - sort of like a grand crusade.

I too learned that the Bible could be understood. That I didn't have to just "take someone's word for it." I also met a LOT of great people that also loved God and wanted to serve Him - at least that is what they said. I got started on a road that has caused me to continue to seek truth, accuracy. In spite of all that I am learning to forgive and to accept.

Since leaving TWI many years ago I have learned many things. The main thing being that many people know what we thought we had exclusive rights to. I am glad that when I speak to Christians they realize that I have a pretty good working knowledge of the Word. I can credit the class for helping me see that the Bible can be treated as an accurate book and not just a bunch of fairy tales. (Hey Craig - I used the words "bible" and "fairy" in the same sentence and I'm still here! oh sorry i'm back now.) The Roman Catholic Church kept the Bible in latin because they felt that the common man couldn't handle it. Suppose they too were trying to protect their congregation from intolerable error? No matter how many reasons you concoct it was wrong. Controlling information is still control. When you are trying to empower people with the truth you give them enough information to help them learn how to see the truth.

Well, that was a can of worms..... I have read many a book with citations. I don't run to every source and read it nor do I find it distracting. What they tend to do is show that work was done and respect was paid. I wasn't around 35 years ago. I never had the benefit of hearing all these speakers although I heard aobut the "good old days." I WAS around 27 years ago so you would think that some of that habit of bringing in speakers like BG Leonard would have still persisted. No such luck. Look, it was always supposed to be about God and His Word - not the man with the research. It never bugged me tht the books on Orientalisms didn't have VP's name on them. Didn't make me want to run out and join his church. I was glad that I was in a ministry where what was (or seemed ) to be important was that we all learn to think for ourselves. And THAT is why the citings should have been made...... Making books by other writers availabe in a bookstore (which they weren't by the time I got into TWI - at least not at meetings) is not giving credit - it is making money. Someone is intent on giving a very wde berth to VPW. He was a minister - but they make mistakes and can even screw up big time. That was a mistake that at least has the appearance of dishonesty. And it seems to me that we are to avoid such appearances if possible. Oh and TWI didn not come out with the companion Bible - that would be Zondervan. You can get that bible even today at any Christian bookstore - I know because I bought one for my husband. Wordwolf - I saw threads like this but they seemed to be too old for me to add my two cents worth and I wanted to have a say.

AMF: A dios M other F **ker

Ok. I saw this topic in another thread - but it was off subject. It had to do with mastering the PFAL materials and the question about whether nor not VPW claimed it was his own material. On the subject of mastering the various and sundry PFAL books - why? Isn't the Bible big enough for you? Do you need to add even more to master? On the question on whether or not VPW claimed it as his own - yeah yeah yeah - he said that God gave it to him - snow on gaspumps - yadda yadda yadda - but it was HIS name on the covers of those books. He never footnoted or referenced. And it wasn't as if it we couldn't figure it out. I was introduced to Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and it was almost exactly the PFAL class. So he did get something right - fear destroyed him and his ministry. Fear is the only reason I can come up with for him not being honest . Gee, what would have happened if people actually read someone else's work instead of his? - no royalties! There was no proper documentation. When I wrote my thesis paper for the corps I had to have it ALL - footnotes, bibliography, references. Because that is honest. So the argument that he read all this material from others but God helped him rifle through it and get it straight - while it might be true - still compels him as the author to reference these other mens' works. I found this same bad habit years later in a clergy jerk that took all the teachings he ever heard and presented them as his own research.

AH HA! What number does one press want to tell them "AMF?" oooooohhhhh! I know - 8! the number for new beginnings! Heh heh heh heh

Just call them the Vice Squad heh heh heh!

OK I found a NEW Penguin batting game! This one has a gruesome side to it - You should like it sudo! - the penguin's head pops off and flies over a mine field - if it hits a mine the head flies even farther. FUN!! I sent this to moony because I couldn't find this thread - then I found it - ENJOY! http://www.yonkis.com/mediaflash/yeti_gorez.swf

OK. "It is ruomored" that Loy has become a personal trainor. EWWWWWW the worst of both worlds - LCM in tights ..AND having an excuse to get his hands on women. YUK YUK YUK

Ok now i'm going to really go out on a limb and repeat my favorite pet peeve that started back right before TWI was on the was down. i think this kind of thinking still prevails - but i'm not sure. I was talking to a branch coordinator's wife. She had been 6th corps, wife of a limb coordinator, and had lived at International a loooooong time. She was referring to another person and called them a rank unbeliever. I had had it. How did she know that this wasn't a carnal Christian? O one who wasn't fully instructed? I asked her if she had had any revelationt that this person wasn't born again - any visions of a black heart? - No? well them she couldn't be sure and should refer to them as a person. No boxes, no labels. I began to hate the jingoistic attitude that prevailed in TWI. We all started to think of ourselves as the only Christians on earth. WE were the Body of Christ! OMG how many important members of the true body of Christ had we dismissed as useless? - THAT is just how sick the Body was. It occured to me once I became a parent that when my kids fight I don't really care who's right or wrong - I HATE the fighting!!!! It breaks my heart! If one kid treats another badly it really doesn't matter if she is in the right or not - she's wrong for her wrong action. God must surely feel the same way. If we being evil can hate injustice - God must LOATHE it. I don't tell people anything about myself other thatn I am a Christian if they ask about my "religion" Why does "brand name " matter? I recall a class on Biblical research in which one of the teacher pointed out that Bullinger had a following that loved research and their downfall was their legalism and their mistreatment of people. - sound familiar?

I was long gone by the time M& A had begun. UGH! How ANYONE bought that line of cr*p was and is beyond me. In that case the non-thinkers who ratted out their brothers were the problem - and they fall into the collective"we" because they weren't LCM or BOT. The Body was very ill.

You know, I have looked back many times and realized that we all became part of the problem. VP, Craig, various and sundry sleezy Limb coordinators, - they all got their power from our unwillingness to really think about what they were doing and saying. it was always too easy to dismiss their words as "the words of the man of God" This is not to say that they were innocent. Just like we reverenced them for having a greater knowledge - they were responsible for how they used that knowledge. I have been involved in many things since TWI - two splinter groups and some churches. Strangely enough - the leaders of the splinter groups ended up being guilty of the same things VP and LCM were guilty of - Infedelity, sexual misconduct, financial hanky panky, manipulation of the word for their own gain. There is a report that says that when a Baptist convention goes to a hotel that the porn purchased over cabel goes through the roof. - maybe its the incognito thing. I think its a lack of accountability. Both VP and LCM along with many others made sure that they were innoculated against being accountable by making it very very scary for anyone who called them on the carpet. Now to me THAT is also death in part or in whole. It is death of the soul and it is much graver than the death of the body. OOPPS - I thonk I just got off topic - my bad...

When I originally heard the quote it went " Sickness is death in whole or in part." Not much different - and it doesn't really seem that counterintuitive... but I believe that it was one of the many quotes that begat a like of its own (in whole or in part) and was used to manipulate people.

I as in Houston in 80-82 (my interim and LOA year) with the 10th corps. Mark and Holly Lewis and the Cagels were there. I heard that Jerry passed away quite a few years ago. I have been in Fort Worth since "83. Have two girls and a husband (not in that order tho) I was one of the small feisty Italians form New York that cmae to texas to stay. When i was in Texas my first year I was asked." so, are you a Yankee or a d*mn YANKEE?" I wasn't sure of the difference so I asked and was informed "a yankee comes down and visits, a D*mn Yankee STAYS!" LOL!!! Glad to be here - Ex 10 I have some friends in the Woodlands.

Alright Tom - we have probably seen each other within the last 10 years or so - maybe even more recent. Did you ever hang out at the Wire's house? - HMMMMMM -

Two things - there are two Clem Robins in Cincinnati - one has middle initial "J" and the other "I" does anyone out there know which one was in the corps? - Also can I assume that Clem is no longer with TWI? Thanks all!

Tonto and Tom Strange - I've been in Fort Worth since "83 - I think - I got here right after graduation and I liked it. All those years New York City taught me that while I love snow I really would rather visit snow[/color] instead of live with it.

Sorry those of you who responded - I lost track of this thread. I am actually glad that I found you guys - all in all we were all a great group - fun for the most part anyway. oakspear - which college were you in in NYC when you took the class? We just might know each other - that was a tight group in that there town. (OOps texan slipping in!) Just to be clear - I remained a believer but not one with TWI. It all got too "line in the sand " for me way too quickly over very petty stuff. It seemed to me that we were using the very same Word that God had given to bring us together as a tool for division. That was just a bunch of bull. I have always kinda marched to my own drummer (he's there in my head right now..Heh heh heh) I don't consider this time wasted - I just hope that I can figure out how to get in touch with more folks - after all that's why i'm here.:)

hey does anyone out there know the whereabouts of Clem Robbins. I know he ended up in Idaho for a while but he was from Mass. - Just wanting to say hi to him

Hey Ex10 I think I know you - and I am in texas as well in Fort worth to be exact. We were in our first twig in 10th corps together and we actually ran together for a while.. One morning as we were walking in you looked at me and said,"Goll-ee you're short...!" Let me know if I have the right person -

Ok but is there a way for me to find out who I am talking to - just in case I know some of you - which I am certain I do.

Ok so what I want to know is HOW some of you know who each other are. This site seems firm on anonymity - but....... that don't seem to always be the case. I don't mind people knowing who I am - but it seems to me that there must be a reason for the secrecy - I seemed to have read somewhere in the archives about lawsuits because of posting on the site - perhaps that's a thing of the past.... I'm looking not only for people to talk to but also to find some of those past acquaintances - I've checked profiles and those are usually blank. ARGGGGGHHHHHH!

Too Gray - Thanks for the welcome ( and I had one other welcome - but I forgot the call name - sorry) A "dooj" Well - when my first little girl was born we called her a "pookie doodle" As things go. after a while all sorts of things had the term doodle attached to them. e had a friend tht got really intp Paulie Shore and his was of speaking (ie Grindage, Grundage, etc) we tried to get our then 2 year old to say "doodle-age" and it came out "dooj" - There you go - nothing mysterious. Hope I didn't just mess up a thread. On that subject though..... Lead was not the worst time in my life - that would have been in the same house as my step monster. I do seem to remember - vaguely - that when one of the corps died on Lead that it became her fault. She obviously wasn't in fellowship. Years in retrospect I realize that we all gave the devil way to much credit for screwing with us and not enough credit to God for caring for us. Of course then there was always ourselves to blame.....Romans 8 be damned (pun intended) But I have found that all in all my life has not been horribly torn apart. I knew the job was dangerous when I took it concerning the way corps and many other things. Yes there were a lot of those with power that abused that power - but as I move through the wolrd I see that it isn't just a way thing - its a people thing. people are absolutely horrible to each other on occasion. OK there's my two cents - I see both sides of the thread here and both are right. youcan't excuse people for acting badly. we used to tell our kids - some people don't know how to be careful for you or themselves so you just have to be extra careful. (Jesus said it a bit better with the whole wise as serpents and harless as doves thing)