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Mstar - I didn't really feel a call to my profession back then as I was fresh out of college and really wanted to get Corps training so that I could use my talent to serve God. I didn't spend all this time completely away from art. In the meantime I have taught myself calligraphy, illumination, and I've worked as a picture framer for 22 years. Seems God has managed to keep my talents alive and honed. When I finally returned to my true talent, it was almost like I had never been away. The TWI was a big PIA (pain in the A$$) but I am choosing to believer that God saw my heart and was patient with me. My biggest frustration with not getting to be in DD was that I saw all this great stuff coming from talented people and I wanted to participate. BTW in my last year in residence we were supposed to frame some pics for the cafeteria (forgot the cutesy way name they gave it) I had been TRAINED in this. But P@t L*nn took over and made a mess of it - then acted like she had done some great thing. Oh well that's another story.... Mstar - got any pics of your stained glass? I love the stuff. I have some old stained glass panels from an old house - a "Mission era" house I just love colored glass!

Ex - my depression isn't because of you. i just wish that some of those artists out there would tell of their experiences. I was just in DD for one semester - I guess they didn't think I was "spiritual enough" I remeber crying and praying that I would get it together enough to really be able to serve Him with my talent. It took nearly 22 years for me to ralize that God gave it to me and that no one else could take it away. Anyway, someday I'll post my story of how God gave me back this wonderful passion I have for the visual arts. Socks I paint in oils - I am actually awful in watercolor. I would love to see both your work and your son's work. it just seems to me that since we were asked to give up so much for TWI that the best and greatest way to show our freedom is to reclaim those God-given talents and gifts. Wow washington! I was at Emporia when she was studying the color keys. i never got a copy of that. I remember the beautiful paintings that were done to show those keys. I also remember Craigo being so adamant that the colors were picked out for each artist - he didn't realize that that wasn't really a big deal - someone used to painting could make the colors they wanted no matter what - they might have to get used to a different pallette but it wasn't the heavy control that he would've liked.

Ok now this is getting depressing - are there NO artists out there? Did you give up what once was your passion and never return? You don't have to post a piece of art. Tell us about you life since. Did you have any great, fun times while woriking with fellow artists? let us hear form you - I can't believe that I am the only one.

Ya' know guys, nothing screws things up as quickly as a bad analogy. When Jesus spoke of fruit he was referring to a person and what came of his life. I'm not sure you can make that analogy work when you change the context and make a class the tree and the people its fruit. The class was a class. To the extent that the Word was taught and received, there was fruit. You can't blame God, or the Word for people's bad actions. Yes plagiarism is stealing, but that is separate from the Word that was in the class. There is one line in the class the I have found to be almost prophetic - "the deacons don't deak and the elders don't eld" I'm not trying to be light-hearted but if there were truly pastors and they were doing what they were suppposed to do the people would have been guarded. If people were hurt they are not the rotten fruit. The PAIN they went through was the rotten fruit of the people that inflicted that pain. I find it amazing that all these years have gone and so much pain has been felt but sometimes we jump for the jugular way too quickly. I can only be reminded of this image I have of everyone trying to to look out for themselves and in the process they step on someone else's toes. Hey Merry Christmas you guys! Have a gerat holiday with your families and spend some time counting all the blessings you have. if you've been hurt or injured, thank God that you got out and that you can keep on healing. We should be praying for each other and not attacking each other. Otherwise we get too close to the old days of M& A .... Anyways - just kiss and make up - ok?

This is true. If you want to have some real insight into and organization tht calls itself an Christian MINISTRY - then take a good hard look at how they treat widows and children, and the poor. TWI was touting that bad things happen to people because they didn't believe enough. Then then let these poor individuals lie on the ground while "believers" walked right by and even gave them a few jabs. (This is a figure for those of you who are very literal thinkers ;) ) When my children misbehave I don't weed them out - I teach them and comfort them if that is what is needed. Yes I correct them - but not with a baseball bat.

My daughter rides a Boogie board when she can - but sadly that is neither. It is the edge of a pool. Isn't it funny how people see different things in one work of art? I guess that is why art is important - because it speaks differently to all of us. OK now someone else needs to post some work - I have lots of work to post but this topic isn't about me - its about those of you out there who have something to say in a picture - any great photographers out there?

OK -so SOMEONE out there must have gone back to painting, sculpting, anything having to do with the arts. Lets hear from you!

I'll try and post mylatest painting to get us started. This is of my youngest - painted it last week. Hope you like it.

I have finally gotten the chance to return to my art. I am very thankful that I have found that I still love to do what I started out to do before TWI. How about you? Were you an artist? Are you an artist? Perhaps you have a link to show your work. In any case - lets meet and talk.

Bramble, You wrote: "Back in the early eighties I remember an interim corps girl(11th corps I think) tell me there was a passage in the gospels where Jesus came to a town and the women ministered to him sexually" It seems to me that when LCM did athletes of the Spirit that he spoke about Jesus allowing women to touch him. (Annointing heim with oil, kssing his feet, using their hair to wipe his feet, etc.) He insinuated that they might have been attracted to him physically - but I think that the way LCM taught allowed a lot of people to fill in the blanks. I was in the 11th corps and I didn't hear that teaching other than the way I just gave it to you. Oddly enough, during the Corinthians Corps night teachings either Dr or W*lter C&mmings taught explicitly that it was WRONG for a man to touch a woman other than his wife in a sexual manner. Now, I wonder how people got around that......?"

Om, Had Dr quoted his sources it wouldn't have changed my believing or commitment at the time one iota. On the other hand, there are others out there that it would have made a difference to. The big question is not whether or not it would have affected me or the next guy. The question(s) are: Wasn't quoting sources the RIGHT thing to do? -especially given that TWI touted itself as a Biblical RESEARCH and teaching ministry? For VPW's sake - wouldn't honesty have made his life just that much simpler? For the ministy's sake - weren't we always told to avoid even the appearance of evil? I often wonder what dilemmas his children (Don and Wanda) faced as they had to tell their dad that he was doing things wrong - or did they even try? I was taught about the multitude of counselors -Did VPW adhere to this Godly advice? So when Don Weirwille was going through school and becoming more and more engulfed in academia it surely hit him that things were awry. Wanda actually helped with the editing - I can't imagine that she didn't know about citing sources. IF (and I know it is just speculation) even one person went to VPW and told him that he had to cite his sources he couldn't claim ignorance. IF he told them not to do it no matter what, then things were really rotten in Denmark (or St Mary's) early on. That would indicate what I could only describe as a systematizing of error. There is at least one other scenario here and that is that perhaps no one dared to tell VPW about citing sources. They just kept it hidden and went with the flow. Maybe out of fear or laziness. Fear of VPW, fear of having to pay royalties, laziness because that would be a LOT of work. I realize that there is a LOT of conjecture here. Probably more questions than answers. I am not saying that just because I said it that it is true. But if any of it is true it would be a major indicator as to why things went wrong in TWI. It would expose the foundation of sand. It might indicate that TWI was not built on the Word of God as was always touted, but rather on a lie that could EASILY have been amended by simply citing sources. Oh what a tangled web we weave.......

Well said Iriseyes. I am not of a mind to limit God to one little man in Ohio. Like I say often: I feel like all of us will be surprised in some manner when we see Jesus face to face. No matter what we think - God thinks bigger and better. All we can do is try to make our next decision the best we can according to what we know and understand.

Om, I understand what you're saying - but then my question is : Why didn't he add THAT very selfsame statement to a forward in subsequent editions of the Orange Book - or any of the collaterals for that matter? I never owned "The Way Living in Love" why would I have had to buy that book in order to get that info. One line in an obscure book that was maybe purchased AFTER one had already taken the class. Also, I never saw those books at limb meetings or at any of the PFAL open houses. Those books were, to the best of my knowledge only sold at HQ. Still has a sense of manipulation to me. I'm not sure that as a starving art student I would have passed up the opportunity to buy books one at a time as I could afford them rather than have to sell a camera so that I could get the $$ for PFAL.

You know--- Mike's contention that since God gave the rev to VPW exempts the good "Dr" from the responsibility to cite his source - since the info was God's to give - got me thinking.... Any places where in the Bible where God told someone to bend the rules - or out and out break them? What about taking credit for something that he or she did not do? I can't think of any... I can only think of Abraham's "white lie" concerning Sarah being his sister. God got kinda' ticked about that - it almost cost Sarai a whole lot as well. Abe tried to take a shortcut and tell a partial truth and God put a stop to it. Then of course there's Jesus Christ himself - if anyone could have skipped the responsibilty of citing his sources it would be him - right? Nope! he cited Isaiah, among others and he FREQUENTLY said "it is Written" Not "I just got an Idea" I know that this horse is quite dead, but I still maintain that even if we want to concede that God led VPW to the info that eventually became PFAL, he did not endorse plagiarism. Besides, the leading to the info - THAT could have been the heavy-revvy. (Giving benefit of the doubt here. To all those poised to start typing, hold that thought! ;) )Dr still had the responsibility to cite "It has been written - by others..." Now could good have been done with stolen goods - perhaps. But wasn't it Dr himself that told us to always tell the truth - "tell the truth and you can forget - lie and you always have to remember it." it seems that therein lies the beginning of the reason for manipulation. I know, I know i'm just restating the obvious - AGAIN. so fire me! :)

Or that there are really 4 c's in a measure instead of 2 - oh wait 2 of them are c sharps - they are of a different kind Just having some fun here - I know just enough music to be dangerous carry on with the seriousness....:)

Irisheyes, The first point I brought up many, many pages ago was the plagerism. That started a barrage of comments that caused this topic to become the monster that it is. Now the main discussion (and a recurring one I surmise) is whether or not the PFAL class is God-breathed. Most say NOT - but there is at least one hold out (mike) I think he has a few friends on this matter but I'm not sure since sarcasm doesn't always read as such. The crux of the matter is that this is a recurring theme here at GS and when I started this topic i wasn't aware of the can of worms I was opening. It is the embodiment of Pandora's box.

Irisheyes: We already dealt with that subject. I am tabling that one in my arguments so that another point can be argued. But you're right, VPW did let on that he came up with this all on his own. Somewhere around page 4 or so the concept of plagerism was dropped, just for simplicity's sake.

I'm not sure where Sharon is... Anyone know? if you "see" her tell her to get the game moving again - please!!!!

Allan, What I tried to say a few posts ago was that I believe that even if VPW had not compiled all the writings of Bullinger, Leonard, et al, that GOD would have led you and I to these. He handled the birth of Jesus - I think He could have handled this -if it were what He truly wanted. No confrontation here(or earlier) - I didn't mean for it to come off as such. My Yankee sarcasm gets me in trouble sometimes - but it also serves me well.....

Suppose I were to say that God told me to tell you that PFAL was not God-breathed...... Ahhhhhh - now there's dueling revelation. (anyone have that little ditty from "deliverance" handy? LOL) My point is and remains that God has to prove the work not the man writing or reading it.

Mike, I must agree that "Filerbustering" just isn't the case here. In order to answer a long piece another long piece must be written. I'm sorry but you can't have it both ways.. You can't on the one hand demand context and then complain when you are quoted and debunked. Even if you feel that the debunking is unwarranted, it's the game. If anyone of us don't want to play we take our ball and go home (ie stop posting.) It may be tiresome, true - but just don't answer those arguments that you deem unimportant. Free will still exists.

Allan, The WHOLE quote was: What have you learned from PFAL that you could not learn from the Word itself? (The answer "how to work the word just isn't good enough - because that information was available long before the class.)" The class teaches how to work the Word - not how to live life. Otherwise, there are literally HUNDREDS of books out there that tell us more than the Word. ( Please so not interpret this as my thinking the Word of God has no value. Just trying to flesh out poor logic.) There are English majors out there that spend years of their lives piecing together the works of William Faulkner. Their theses (plural of thesis - I think) show how his books work together and carry themes and characters from one book to the next. Just because they help a reader enjoy Faulkner no one would dare to say that they have just ADDED to the works of Faulkner. Bullinger wrote "How to Enjoy the Bible", about 100 years prior to PFAL. Then there was the afformentioned BG Leonard class. Not saying that PFAL didn't have anything to offer - just that it wasn't new and it wasn't scripture.

Mike, Here is the most cogent point I can think of. You really have failed to prove that PFAL is God-breathed. You have a better argument in saying that God led VPW to the various elements of PFAL. If PFAL is to be treated as scripture there must be proof. It is not enough to simply quote the class and the words of VPW, or the collaterals. That is like defining a word by using thesame word in the definition. (Just because I tell you that I am holy doen't make me holy - neither does me telling you that God told me to tell you that I am holy.) So here is a question: What have you learned from PFAL that you could not learn from the Word itself? (The answer "how to work the word just isn't good enough - because that information was available long before the class.) Doctrine? Reproof? Correction? Instruction in righteousness? Praise? I see no new doctrine for the generation. No new light. At most there might be a repetition of old light that is new to the generation. (This is a real stretch for me - I did my research paper on apostles and I am NOT submitting that PFAL was new light of any kind - Just playing devil's advocate...) But this does not consitute a working of the class where I find the first use of a word and follow it through. Please be specific. Keep in mind that I am well aware that the writings of Paul were not necessarily treated as scripture when they were written. God through Paul helped believers meander their way through an age where grace would abound. (Not so sure is always abounds on this thread though ;) I think that C.S. Lewis would approach the subject in this manner: If working the Word includes comparing scripture with scripture how can you go about doing so with PFAL and the collaterals? Now God gives lots of revelation to lots of people so even if we will take the "Evil Kneival-sized" leap of faith that God gave VPW revelation regarding PFAL, that doesn't make it scripture. ( BTW I do not subscribe to this belief.) Nor does it require that I work it as if it were scripture. If that is so then I also had better get busy checking the words, teachings and writings of every Christian thinker and teacher. Eventually the job would be so colossal that no Christian would ever get down to the business of loving God and serving His people. We are to fear God and keep His commandments - I just dont' believe that God wants us caught up in the web of chasing down just what those commandments are. AND... the ad hominum attack is the absolute weakest attack from a logical point of view. It gets results but that doesn't mean anything - ultimately. It justs stalls the issues at hand. (this is no matter who does the attacking)

That's it - Your turn Sharon.

"They know not if its dark outside or light..."