doojable

Isn't this all too real today" Thousands of years ago God gives Abraham a promise of children. But his wife gets anxious and he gives in and gets a substutute. Enter Hagar and her son Esau. God then keeps His promisd HIS way and Sarah has a child - Isaac. Exit Hagar and Esau. Bitterness. Resentment. Fighting, fighting and more fighting. The wars still continue today. Hagar and Esau were totally screwed by Abraham. God took care of them. Imagine what would have been a major change in history if Hagar and Esau could somehow have forgiven Abe and Sarah and found true joy and thankfulness in God's provision. ( Now I know they didn't deserve to be cast out. God didnt' tell Abe to cast them out - Sarah did out of jealousy.) I bet both sides don't even realize that this is a centuries-old family dispute. One side hates and the other responds with hate. Both sides feel totally justified in their actions. Both sides have valid points. Now it's gotten to the point that there is financial profit in continuing this family feud. ( War really is a great money maker even if it destroys lives.) Sometimes I have to face myself and ask myself "What is the Payoff for holding on to the past?" Sometimes I have to anwer,"nothing." other times the answer is that the resentment feels so familiar that I am more at home with it than I imagine I would be with the alternative. Then I realize the rediculousness of this and I ask God for help. I get out of His way and go through the difficult process of forgiveness. Its tough and it never seems fair. It goes against all sense of justice. But it is the only thing that works. Just speaking for myself here.....

So here's a DD war story. It was my last year in res.(11th corps) at Emporia. I believe it was the last block ( iguess that's what they used to call them.) I had FINALLY gotten into DD. I was ready to prove myself. I was asked to make a card ( I think it was for lcm's birthday - but I don't remember) I chose to use colored pencils and draw a lighthouse scene with a bunch of men braving the rocks and waves - m*rk L*w^s had done a teaching about the song "let the lower lights keep burning and had taught that the lowerlights were those who went and fought for the lost - held up smaller lights so that the ships didn't crash on the rocks when they came to shore.) I did this all from imagination and inspiration. For some reason I thought this was appropriate. I must say that it came out amazing - J Lynn said that is was suitable for framing. A few months later I was specificcaly asked to do another card for lcm.. This time no such inspiration was allowed. I was told it had to include the building where teachings happened ( Uncle Harry????) I found a pic to use and colored. Mind you I had only one night to do this. I had to stay up until it was time to go on bless patrol (wasn't excused!) then I wasn't given permission to stay and sleep during classes like oh so many of my corps mates had been for much less. All this and - they didn't use the card anyway!!! Some bull about it being spiritually dark. ( It was a night scene because that was the only good pic we had and there was a guy walking whose face was only about the size of a pea. I blurred it because I wanted the emphasis on the building and the lights (must have been a thank you card for some class.) Since the face was blurred I was told it seemed Dark.(????!!!!!WTF???!!!!) Hey that was not a very good looking building - and I gave them what they asked for. What replaced it - some heart thing - trite and nothing special as I remember it. - But that my have been sour grapes. So I got no sleep and I wasn't told about the change - I found out when the card was presented. I really felt the love that day. That's when i realized that I was just another pair of hands to them - just like it would have been in the "real world." Anyway that was years and years ago - Next.......

Too Gray - Thanks for the cudos. I keep on thinking that these waves come then recede then come back. Mybe that's why Romans 8 had to be written - so that God could tell us to get off our own cases and let Him do the judging. I have learned that when you judge another you do judge youself - because at the very least you set up a standard that you must now uphold. For some people those standards are so high that even they themselves cannot cut the mustard. (Sounds like some Pharisees we know - huh?) I had a friend that kept on changing the prople he ran with because he had done just that - set up standards for "friends" then when the fell short of the mark he reproved them - then when they returned the favor, he had to leave them for other friends. ( It was wrong as long as YOU did it but if HE did it he was OK because he had some justification.) Needless to say, I became one of his castoffs. There is a paragraph in the book that I started this with that says something to this effect - has to do with legalism and how it keeps one far from grace. Quite frankly, if it takes swallowing my pride to live in grace - I'll do it. Doesn't the Word say something abvout how easy it is to love the loveable (but anyone can do that) the real trick is loving the unloveable (now THAT:S hard!!!) Put simply - the most unloveable people in my book are those that I need to forgive - because they hurt ME! And sometimes I can say: "I have seen the enemy and he is us." (Or She is me.) Anyway - just some thoughts.

You ALL are so wonderful! I was thinking about one of those stages that TGN spoke of. I have found that many times the first thing I have to do is forgive myself - not that I'm necessarily WRONG but because looking back in hindsight I see the million and one things I could have done to avoid being abused - in any fashion. I guess I'm thinking about that guy that cornered me and how I reacted. Looking back, even tho I wasn't compromised I hated that I wasn't louder, or told someone sooner. When I found out that he was boinking others i had to forgive myself for not blowing the whistle and not giving him the opportunity to do that again. I hadn't done anything wrong. But I wanted to do more. I had to stop that cycle of reliving the moment and rethinking every frikkin' thing. In a way I have to "forgive in waves." First I had to forgive myself, then I had to forgive others- It all comes slowly. Perhaps this slow process helps us to better appreciate the forgiveness we receive from the Father. helps us to better realoze just what it was that Jesus Christ did for us - and Lord knows that wasn't a slow and easy process for him. Anyway, thank all of you for being so honest and open and kind to each other.

What about the LUPINS????? Who was that guy that gave all the poor lupins (down here in Texas them thare are Bluebonnets pardnah!)

SO.... will the entry statue be a...Timmy Dove? (wasn't it a statue if Timothy at HQ?) Oh well there goes my cleverness I'll be in charge of refreshments..

Rascal - the funny thing is that she never did leave him. He says that he changed - but I still wonder....Others' says that he's healed - he never asked me or my hubby (who he REALLY slammed) for forgiveness - just a halfhearted, "If i've ever done anything to hurt you or your family I'm sorry..." :unsure: WTF??? I finally decided that I didn't have to forget to forgive. Now I haven't called him and told him this - and I won't. He even tried to look me up at work years later - I gave him a real cold shoulder. (And Ex I believe you know this person.) I don't want to open up that subject again - just that it took me along time to "let him off the hook" by doing the right thing - AGAIN!!! I figure - he's got his reward (aand some STD's to show for it.)

WW - My husband informs me that there was also the "Ministry of People Who Put Things On Top of Other Things"

Wordie - I remembered that ministry and was going to post it - but I forgot. If only I could have gotten into one of THOSE ministries - would have been more fun! There was another tho - I can't quite remember it - had to do with silly skits or interuptions - I've seen it recently - but I have half-heimers on occasion

Many have asked me to post the explanation of my handle - doojable. It all started as the word, "dooj." A "dooj" Well - when my first little girl was born we called her a "pookie doodle" As things go. After a while all sorts of things had the term doodle attached to them. We had a friend that got really into Paulie Shore and his was of speaking (ie Grindage, Grundage, etc) we tried to get our then 2 year old to say "doodle-age" and it came out "dooj" - After that everything became "dooj - _____" So instead of being "do-able" it was "doojable." Now my avatar...I am a Drawing teacher and artist. The avatar is one of my paintings entitled, "One Afternoon in February." It is one of my favorites because of the colors and that "don't frack with me" look on the model. (Anyone watch Battlestar Gallactica?) I'll use other avatars but that just seemed like the right one at the time. Oh and Dove there's always DoojDove

I would like to add something here. I keep thinking about the phrase, "Misery loves company." I think that saying could be extended to guilt, shame, avarice and any other evil. I truly believe that this predatorial behavior was systematically spread because it is very hard to call someone on the carpet if you are guilty of the same thing. Somewhere along the line someone was the first to witness vpw in his depravity. Doesn't it make sense that rather than try to convince that person that it was "just a one time thing." It was much easier to start some lie and get them involved in the same sin? Basically, I see how predators could have been raised up. Ordain them, give them houses, get them in paid positions where their liveliehoods and that of their families were dependant on their staying in the "good ole boys" club - and you have quite a system of sick and depraved error. Like the sewer lines that run under our streets.... that is how I describe all the wrongs I have read here. And jon - I hvae said more than once that twi didn't affect me the same as many of those who have posted here. That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, or that it isn't happening still. I knew a woman whose ordained husband was cheating on her. She nearly suffered a nervous breakdown because of the doubt that man instilled on her. And while he wasn't taking care of business at home he was wrecking believer's lives throughout the city- I became one of those casualities because I could have called him on the carpet - so he silenced me by declaring me as having left God and His word when in truth I had only left this man's group that he called a ministry. He even ORDAINED a woman that he had had an affair with because she demanded it in order to keep her silence! Now this woman goes around and announces that she is a WOG when all she is is a w#ore that turned the right trick at the right time. People look at Auschwitz and reminisce over the wrongs done. They look at Pearl Harbor. Isn't it necessary to look at the past in order to keep from repeating the same mistakes in the future? ( I know there is a more eloquent quote - but I paraphased it anyway.)

Speaking pesonally, I find that when I am strugggling with forgiveness is when I make myself a victim. I concentrate on what someone did to ME. What someone said to ME. How they ignored ME. I am like a dog licking its wounds in the middle of a great highway - because fo everyone else life goes on and they have their own hurts they are dealing with. Once I let go of that and stop looking at how I was wronged I am able to look around and see that others have it much worst than I. I lost a mom young - but I wasn't an orphan. I wasn't raised in a wartorn country and my children weren't barracaded in their school by terrorists. This doesn't mean that I forget my life but I insist on making it better for others like my kids. Doesn't the Bible say something about God giving us beauty for ashes? We have got to be willing to trade in the ashes.

Seems to me that the only reasonable response to knowing God is to help people. Mother Theresa was addressing a group regarding abortion. When asked what to do with all the unwanted babies (because the foster care system was already overcrowded and it seemed unfair to raise these kids w/o love.) she responded, "Give them to me." She believed that if she were presented with this problem that God would help her solve it. Now I know that this was one man's response in REJECTING religion - but it seems like the perfect response for embracing God - without religion. I haven't had the easiest life, but i always forget my problems when I am helping another more in need than I. The greater the resentment or sadness I feel the more needy the person. And the feeling of relif lasts much longer than anything from a bottle or a pharmacy could - because in doing so I believe that God allows healing for the soul. So follow through on your threats - but maybe hold off on rejecting God - You just might find He meets you where you think you're least likely to find him. Just my two cents...

I loved the way they would invent "ministries" Such as the "Ministry of Silliness," Oh and there was the global hide and seek - took them YEARS to find each other.

No. he doesn't hang out here Jumpinjive. Be gald. I'm afraid that he would get right in the fray with Mike, Allan, jkboeme, and their various caounterparts - and it wouldn't necessarily be pretty. He's a lawyer and he doesn't have a whole lot of patience for some of the stuff that goes on here.

Oh yes! He was never Corps. We left together during our first year of marriage - all "thanks" to lcm's letter. I never signed up to follow a man - I could have done that with what I left behind. I instead chose to follow God and have not looked back since. Hubby had major problems with twi's teaching on forgiveness and put it in a thesis way before anyone else was figuring out it was bunk. (At least on public record.) He's doing well now and taking one day at a time.

Let's all sing: "Every s perm is sacred.. Every s perm is good..." I still love that scene - the woman is literally dropping babies!

George et al, I am a latecomer to this topic, but if i'm correct my hubby is a lot like you. He has a healthy dose of skepticism. (he's actually a bit of a curmudgeon - but I dont' know if you are as well ) For years both during and after twi he has pondered why he should believe. his "faith" comes and goes - simply because - I usually can't give him many answers and I stopped trying because it would just anger him. he ahs stated that he's jealous of my my "faith" and wishes he could feel the same way. I think he just finally came to the conclusion that there must be a God. Now he's working on how to go from there. I really can't speak for him - but I know that once he got to a conclusion that he was satisfied with he started to really change for the better.

(Scottish brougue) "that rabbit has a mean streak a mile wide!"

Sirguessalot - I too had to work long and hard to forgive: My mother died when I was eight. My father was distant. My step-mother was abusive and hated us - or at least that's what we thought. We later found out that her father died while in prison for killing her mother. She inherited the same predisposition for craziness and passed it on to my half brother. She died wanting to ask for forgiveness (years later when I was in my 30's) but was told not to bother. You know, now that I have worked through it I feel a bit sorry for her - she wanted to repent and seek forgiveness - but she probably felt denied. She died a very painful death from colon cancer. I still hate what she did to my brothers and I. I still can't quite call her son with my father my brother - I have to add the "half." But I have forgiven her - it seems only right. I also had to work to forgive my Dad. He watched as a lot of this went on. he alway just wanted "peace." He took way too long to leave her because he wouldn't leave her unless he could get the RC church to deem his marriage "null." It just took him too long to stand up for us. But today we talk and he is forgiven - and yes he asked - although I have to be honest and say that I had forgiven him before he asked. As I understand things right now: (and this can change as I learn more.) The person wronged is suppose to confront the perpetrator ( no one else) for his offense. (Others are brought in after the perp doesn't repent.) Upon hearing the offense (or sometime later) the wrong-doer is supposed to repent and ask for forgiveness. That's at least one scenario. That's also a "best-case" scenario and doesn't address "on point" the offenses that many have posted on this site. To those who read this topic and get angry thinking that I am somehow not sensitive to your situation, I apologize and ask forgiveness. I have meant you no harm. I certainly hope that when we meet in chat or other forums that we can meet as friends (as much as possible considering we really don't get to meet.) dooj

Ok, I'm done starting "heavy" topics for a while. I don't think I'm very good at it. Soooooo.... What's you favorite Monty Python skit? I have two: Dead Parrot and The Cheese shop.

I might have too much cynic in me...but I just can't shake the feeling that this is a letter that all "believers" were asked to write to those that "have left the fold." I can just hear it now, "There are some out there who have left that are feeling sorry and alone. The devil is having his say with them because they left the family of God. Write to them and let them know how welcomed they are. Blah blah blah...yadda yadda yadda." It's a way to get more ABS money in the coffers. Nevertheless, this letter does have heart. All the others are exactly right. B yourself. Be kind and gentle and let your lfe be a glowing example that there is life after TWI.

laleo, I have no intiention of limiting this discussion in any way. it just became clear to me that the quote I started with was not as complete as i would have liked it to be -nor can it be because I don't want to write the whole book down. As a matter of fact I have competely agreed with most of the comments made on this thread. I especially have enjoyed your posts. I realize that since so many people are so tired of the subject that there are a lot of opinions out there that aren't being heard. I think I just wanted to weigh in and spell out again that I don't believe that the scriptures tell us we have to embrace our abusers. I got the feeling that perhaps the parts of the book I quoted left that point vague. As Mark pointed out, there are a lot of people out there that might read this thread that have been through h&!! with TWI. I in no way want to add to their hurt or pain. I guess that in trying to make myself clear I muddied things up a little. - Hope I just cleared it all up. this discussion hasn't had any name-calling or badgering - so i'm enjoying the discussion.

Let me be clear here, lest you think that the starting quote is a cursory glance over the subject at hand. I posted a couple of paragraphs from one chapter in this book. I did my best to pick the words that best described what I believed was the central thougth of the matter. Although the book is called What's So Amazing About Grace? , It actually focuses quite a bit on forgiveness as well. There are many many examples of real-life situations as well. In my opinion it is a book worth the read. The author handles forgiveness and grace as if they are mirrors of each other ( at least in my opinion.) There are plenty of scripture references and explanations. Forgiveness and punishment - well I can see how these two can be separate. In fact I think that knowing that someone will recieve their ultimate judgement and punishment - if you will - from God, makes it that much easier to forgive. I don't have to be the one who does the punishing. I get to "hurl away" that act and the feelings that keep me wanting to do so. We are instructed to pray for our enemies. We are instructed to not answer evil with evil. We are instructed not to rejoice in iniquity. IMHO i believe that God has given us many different instructions to lead us to the conclusion of forgiveness.

Is that "My Older Sister" by Carly Simon?