doojable

Has it occured to anyone here that forgiving someone is a sort of "dying to self?" I mean, Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive a person (presumably for the same offense - but I could be wrong here.) Jesus answers "seventy times seven." WOW? Think about it: John calls Peter "Pebbles" and Peter gets hurt. He tells John and John asks for forgiveness. "Sure." "Fine, Thanks." They both go on their merry way. Same thing happens the next day. This time Pete is taken aback and reminds John. John says, "Oh yea - I forgot. Forgive me?" And so on and so on - 489 TIMES!!!!! Well by the end of this if I were Pete I'd be questoning ole Johhny boy's sincerity and whether or not he is really repentant. In fact, I'd be wondering to myself if after every time John asks for forgiveness and Pete-y boy says, "Well, OK." if John doesn't go away snickering to himself "S U C K E R!!!" I see here the recipe for dying to self. To forget about youself, your ego, your feelings and seek the higher plane that God calls us to. O also see in the "Condemn not lest.." scriptures a warning from God. I have found that when I am at my most judgemental (and I do get that way) people all around me start to hold me to my own standards. Now I'm not talking about any stiuation in general. I'm not demanding that anyone forgive anyone. I'm not laying out some "threat" that something bad will happen if you don't forgive. I'm just laying things out in the way I have dealt with forgiveness in my life. I've had a lot to work through - and NOT with TWI. I've got a scar on my upper thigh that is 18" long that I got when I was 12 because my stepmother was afraid that I didn't like her and my Dad didn't want to "rock the boat." That's just the beginning. I'm not getting into my whole story. But I have found that forgiveness really is very freeing. It really doesn't release the offender - it releases YOU the forgiver. The offender still has to either deal with guilt, or hardness of heart and that has it's own special reward - and it ain't pretty folks - I've seen it in others and it sux.

Thanks Ex10 Matt 5:43 But I say unto you, Love yur enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. The cite in Luke 6:30-38 is similiar but I will not quote it all ( this one endes with the encouragement to be merciful even as our Father is merciful)- I will however quote the last few verses: Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Now this last verse was always used when twi wanted us to give more denaro $$$$$. I see from the context that it refers to mercy, and forgiveness. If you measure out with a thimble it shall come back pressed down shaken together and running over with a thimble. if you use a bucket ot a backhoe - well that's the measure that will be overflowing. I usually ask myself what's my unit of measure for forgiveness...

Let’s see: ( me in bold, scripture in italics.) Matt 6:12,14,15 And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive our debtors (I learned it as - “those who trespass against us.”) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Any mention of asking for forgiveness? No? Hmmmm… Lets try another. Matt 9:2,3,5 And behold they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise and walk? I still don’t see that man asking for forgiveness. Now finally, in Luke 17 we see the big IF: Luke 17:1-5 Context: the verse before Jesus tells his disciples, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke17:1-5 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, through they come! It were better that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee , rebuke him; and if he repent; forgive him. And if he transpass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Now here we find asking for forgiveness. Notice the consequences for those through which offenses come – (lcm anyone?) I also see that in this case the offended party needed to rebuke him (them.) Then IF he repented and asked for forgiveness - then you MUST forgive. (BTW Did anyone here rebuke lcm? I hope so, if you had the opportunity.) All this does not mean that you cannot forgive without being asked. Are you “obligated to forgive?” I don’t think so. But I am hard pressed to say that forgiveness cannot come without repentance. There’s more - I’m sure – on both sides. I also seem to remember a passage I can’t find right now that says something to the effect that it’s easy to love the loveable, it’s loving the unlovable that is hard and is to be our trademark. (Mark can you help me out here?) So, if you want to forgive – go ahead. If not, don’t. But I will repeat that if you are one of those who has chosen to “let it go” you have already “forgiven.”

Lindy - you said that you "let it go" - according to the "ancient semantics' you have forgiven him. You may not like that conclusion - but there it is - obvious. Should have been the end of the discussion - unless you don't like the word "forgiven" in which case - stick with "I let it go." Same outcome. You don't have the authority to pardon him. That is God's and God's alone and I agree with Mark here - he's got PLENTY coming to him by God's holy hand. In the meantime, don't you think he's living in he- ll? He's fallen from his platform. He's no doubt having to live with one or more STD"s. He's lost most of what he considered gain. Without God and without hope in this world - a true dog who has returned to his vomit. And I wonder - what if (BIG f*&^-ing IF) lcm or any of these guys were to publicly announce their repentance - how many here would receive that with mistrust and disbelief. Yes that's what he gets for living the life he's lived - but still - I think the goalposts would be moved for him and others like him. I still think that some people (not necessarily you) are more comfortable with their anger than with what is asked of them by God. Think about it.

Mike, sometimes you have trouble understanding what we mean and we keep on repeating ourselves. isn't even at all possible that you are mistaken on your conclusions of what dr meant.

Those people who beat Jesus and spat in his face hurt HIM!!! (Good point Jonny) There are many here who were not personally hurt by lcm - but are in the discussion fo forgiving him. WHY? In Modern legal terms you it would be said that "you have no standing" or as others have put it, "you don't have a dog in this fight." Be angry, be upset, be disgusted - be totally appalled and sick to your stomach that these your brothers and sisters were hurt be lcm (as am I) - but you have nothing to forgive him for - THEY DO - if they want to. And the point still stands that God issued forgiveness before we ever asked for it as did Jesus on the cross.

"Pennies From Heaven"?

Mike, what you said about the Adversary copying Adam is wrong. Satan (not the adversry as per the advanced class) did not copy sonship with Cain. God Made (formed) man. breathed life into him, gave him a spirit which was holy. Satan did no such thing in Cain. It was in the advanced class syllabus that Cain was the first one born of the serpent. At least to my recollection.

Right. Tag - you're it!

Rascal - is it possible that you are looking at this too closely? I mean it could be that God wants us to forgive. There is the possibility that a person would repent and even ask for forgiveness and then is still not forgiven. Forgive as we have been forgiven. Rom 10:9,10 says nothing about repentance yet at that moment forgiveness is granted. Jesus died on the cross before any of us repented. So if a person wrongs you - go to that person and that person alone and tell him or her so. If they repent, forgive them and don't keep up the grudge. Now if you can't get to that person, now what? Suppose that person dies? Suppose that person has repented but for some reason can't tell you. What if that person never repents? What? Carry a grudge? Stay angry until that anger turns to hatred? If you forgive that person, that doesn't mean that you have to call them on the phone and tell them they are off the hook. It means that you and God have this agreement that you aren't going to let the offnese get in the way of your fellowship with Him. Jesus asked the Father to "Forgive them for they know not what they do." Now with the exception of the robber/ malefactor ( forgot which) hanging next to him, who in the crowd repented and asked Jesus for forgiveness as they cheered his death? It may not seem fair, it may not seem just - but that is how we show mercy and grace to others. That is how we mimic our Lord. That is how we become a Godly people. IMHO

Ok guys don't make fun of me......I'm still getting the gist of this. I mean - who else plays this game????

OMG - I'm in agreement too! WOW! Is this a new trinity???? LOL I figured out a long long time ago that God would rather have us TRY to worship properly than not at all. AND he certainly doesn't want us using His word - that which he gave us and SHOULD be uniting us - to brow beat and intimidate others. SO on the question of the trinity - I say prayers to both, pray to both (albeit more to the Father than the SON) sometimes I even get on my knees to pray.

AAAnnnd.. this WAS in writing.

Praise God! So glad He's still around taking care of people like Aunt Imogene. Cheers!

Mike, I'm sure you are thoroughly convinced that you have proved your point - but if that were the case you would not be getting the flack that you are getting. The way you write, Dr is greater than Jesus Christ himself. I say that because yu are willing to take as revelation many, many, many, many,* more words of his in writing alone ( not to mention some of his spoken words) than were ever recorded by the Saviour himself. I read most of the posts you referred to. The were not set up logically in the way I am asking you to do. I do remember that you said that the only way to get this logic is to act anyway and get back into the class. I'm not sure about anyone else - but I for one do not have very many books left - and I'm not about to buy any more. You know, when I said that this "believing thing was getting too complicated" - well it wasn't because I no longer remembered all those elements. Things became complicated in the way it was presented - like a big ball of rubberbands that was growing intead of getting smaller. You know in the class when Dr conveys why we should study the Word - he doesn't say because it says its God's word. He SHOWS its perfection. He points out how reliable the Word is. And strangely enough even with this Bible that you call incomplete and "not God's word" Dr managed to get people born again and speaking in tongues. He spent years studying that Bible - not his own work. So why don't you start there. Show the perfection of something you are promoting. These little snippets of lines with one or two words highlighted just isn't how you're going to convince anyone here. If these words are truly of God - they should line up with the rest of the Word of God. I don't mean to totally derail you. But there is a saying that you have to meet people where they are at.

BTW from what I see of that list above - there is no reason why all those can't be put into play at the same time - well ok, the unbeliever doesn't get in fellowship and doesn't give God the glory. BUT.... Everyone believes something all the time. What we believe shapes who we are. The reason ( I believe) we for breaking things down was 1.to point out how we believe so that we could transfer that to the Word (much like the way speaking was broken down in sesson 12 - you don't sit down and go through all the "steps" of speaking, fo you?) 2. to keep people from being frustrated in trying to believe for what wasn't possible - I now feel that God only instructs us to believe the Word. The phrase"believe for" is never used in the Bible (to my knowledge) so that was a wrong doctrine from the beginning. IMHO So we Believe God and take Him at his Word. We worship Him and praise Him - we get the benefits of being in a big family with a lot of spritual help.

The more complicated this all gets the more scared-er I get! ( I know the right phrase - thought we needed some humor here.) Mike this just seems wrong. to complicated something that is so simple is just not right. I'm changing the topic - or at least postponing it because there is a big impasse here. When I learnedlogic I was taught the classic way to put for a point was a syllogism. basically: If ( fact) and ( fact) therefore(conclusion) I believe that this is what Tom S is asking for. You keep wanting to start with a premise that only you see as fact. Can we all back up and get to proving that premise? This is how the class was laid out. When Dr taught 4 crucified he started with the known and made a conclusion - by laying it out. I don't really know if you have done that yet. Those 22 points aren't it because they still call for a willing supension of disbelief. That is the hurdle you really have. If you can't start with something known and then build to a conclusion we can't follow you where you want us to go. Forget about a cart pulling a horse - you now have a cart trying to DRAG a horse that is dug in and backing up. This is why you encounter the fight - IMHO so can we start again? No games, just conversation. The games come across as manipulative tricks and they get tiresome and annoying. I for one don't like being toyed with - had enough of that to last a lifetime.

Well if we could chase down Jonny Lingo we could get him to tell another of his hilarious stories. Then we could all sit around and drink margaritas, or vodka tonics, or whatever. I'm not much of a beer gal. I only like wine with food - hey I could got back in the kitchen and kick out all the help and turn this cafe into an italian restaurant - lasagna anyone?

I just got done with my last high pressure weekend for a while. Sorry for the wait.

TOTW - this one's for you: "I got a jack - but I'm not gonna help you" Now back to reality. Don't become too comfy here we probably hae to stir something up on the 10th corps thread. maybe we need a nasty or juicy rumor. I know - what we need are margaritas! or maybe apple flavored martinis.

"I want you to meet my leetle freend......"

Mike. I am just do not agree with you. Beliiving anything takes place in the heart. (Believe in your HEART that God raised him(JC) from the dead) Yes it can become spiritual but it does not have to begin with steps. Else Jesus Christ himself would have laid out these steps to the twelve. God would have laid them out to Abraham. Heck, perhaps there would have been a book of Abraham laying it all out to all generations for all time. One of the myths of twi was that all the world was wrong and the only right way to do things or understand things was the Way's way.(pun intended) Just when you thought you understood something - well you were wrong because it wasn't the latest understanding. The class tried to break down the mechanics of believing so that it could be understood. It was never supposed to be a recipe and a rote thing to do. You believe things all the time - you don't go through all these steps - as does the rest of the world. I gotta' go I'll be back next week.

Ok so I only know of one"Allens" those being the Howard Allens. Who are we talking about -or at least where can I find out.

I still think that this is all a misnomer. "law of believing" is an attempt to put into steps something that is a heart thing. Some "left-brainer" tried to do a "right-brain" thing. wrong tool for the job. More about this after the weekend.

Well you might want to count me as a kind of step child since I started with all of you 10th. I hear there is at least one more - ILoveBagpipes can we recruit?