doojable

From one Bronx-ite to another Happy Birthday!

This quote comes to mind although I don't remember who is credited with saying it (according to my sources lots of people have been - so let's not get another thread started) "The only thing necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing." SOOOO no matter how good certain members of the BOT seemed, no matter who your favorite leader was, IF he or she saw the evil coming and did nothing they contributed to it.

Sending this to the top for the few who still don't know....

OH - but he was obeying the directive of the Men of Gawd! Obedience was just believing that the MOG was right and acting accordingly. I'm pretty sure that when the driver started driving that the wind wasn't an issue - It surprised HIM!!!! So why is this so difficult????

I think you want quotes and facts - but the truth is that there was so much implied that you won't get what you're asking for. Think about the pressures put on all those involved - go back and READ! Here

I was there to witness so many of these scenarios that it isn't funny. So were many others. How do you know otherwise?

And one more thing... There would be some that would blame twi no matter what - This is a recurring theme with you for dismissing a lot of wrong on their part. This statement can not be used because there are too many factors, too broad a set of possible circumstances. Because: IF twi had decided to used cars - some different scenarios could occur: 1. Twi drove corps to and from LEAD BUT in unsafe vehicles, or with unreasonable time frames requiring unsafe driving practices. 2. TWI used quality cars and gave drivers ample time to get there but didn't check driving records. 3.TWI used quality cars, quality drivers, and gave ample time and money to get to LEAD and back safely. Now, in the last two scenarios, because at least some care was taken and shown for the LEAD students, I would doubt highly that we would find ourselves arguing on this topic. Then again, if this kind of care was shown it would be a reflection of care for the individual in other areas of the ministry - then we might not even have a forum at all. BTW -the time allowed to get to a location? - DOUBLE the normal driving time. That means that TWI recognized that the Corps would be on the roads much longer than it would take to just drive. How's that for increased odds of danger...????

First - go back and re-read that thread. The driver was surprised by the wind. He did try to control the truck. Second, Now you want to talk about "tempting God???""!!!!! Oh but putting up to sixty (!) young folks on the highway at intervals wasn't tempting God? You know - I was dropped off with a partner in a bridge - not a smart idea! You're just not right - you're just not right at all.

WordWolf - All I remeber was that the Library at Emporia was the first Carnegie Library west of the Mississippi. There was not much time to use the library - well except that a few found a pretty good use for the tower......

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! NO! NO! The Corps was "SUPPOSED" to be about training leaders and workers to go forth and lead God's people! End of story! We were there to get training. We were there to learn to lead God's people. Exploits and feats!!!??? Where was that written? None of my literature said that? Nobody told me that I'd have to leap tall buildings in a single bound.... BTW - where were those exploits and feats from LEADERSHIP when we did get hurt? Did vpw rush to anyone's side and pray for them? Did anyone get raised from the dead? NO! They got shown the door and told to not let it hit them on the a$$. Is this how Jesus handled the woman caught in adultery? - I use that example because the shame she felt was at least as deep as those who "failed" to believe. What about how he handled Peter? Petey failed numerous times by vpw's standards - but strangley enough Jesus didn't send him packing. Exploits and feats...????? NO! NO! Dangit! NO!

Posting is a challenge for me now - I'm on a friend's computer until Sunday. If someone wants to post I'll take up the slack when I get back to my home computer. Promise - just pass the baton and I'll pick it up. Maybe I shouldn't have answered...sorry!

Actually, I just recently read the thread in question now. As I recall, the writer didn't blame TWI or the driver - he said that the driver did the best he could. OTOH - HE did blame twi for how they handled the injured, how they humiliated them by dismissing them and making them feel like they were somehow not worthy of the WC. OM - I understand placing the blame on the true perpetrators of the crime - the rapists, the muggers, the devil, etc. BUT - TWI DOES HAVE A BURDEN OF RESPONSIBILITY. In a court of law the jury would be asked to consider "what a reasonable man would do," among other standards. In the instance of hitching, a reasonable NUMBER OF "REASONABLE" MEN should have looked for a different solution with lesser odds of harm. You are fond of quoting the number of accidents associated with driving. Multiply that number by - ohhhh let's be conservative and say double - for hitching. Why? Well, because not only are there still people riding in cars, they are standing on roads and highways, getting into cars with strangers, traveling while tired and cold at all hours of the morning with no more than $10.00 in their pockets, (which, BTW, had to be returned upon returning to campus,) and sometimes sleeping on the side of the road from sheer exhaustion. So these folks were still subjected to the "dangers" of driving, but with ADDED DANGERS!!!!! ADDED UNFAVORABLE ODDS! How was/is this acceptable? Vpw was always touting that the WC was God's elite. He called us "his kids" - yeah right. You are simply not thinking here....maybe you are protecting an ideal and having to ignore the facts in order to do so.

Maybe its just the strange stuff growing NEXT to the tomatoes that is the real problem!

Harumpfffff! Dang those folks! So who went into all their Bibles and tore out the verses where the disciples as Jesus who sinned - the man born blind or his parents???? I do not recall any place in the Bible that blames a person's sickness for their sin. Honestly, how many devil spirits must have been around to help this line of bull go through the filters. Thank God for justice!

I think some folks log in anonymously, then only log in if they want to post....

OM, Again, once the first or maybe second incident of harm happened - SOMEONE in authority should have seen the potential for harm and seen that sending out sometimes hundreds of Corps at a time to hitch was a bad idea! It's not like it was a sometimes thing - it was a policy. I think that as such, to admit that it was dangerous would have to admit some form of responsibility - and that wasn't about to happen.

Oh but some of us did! And even if we didn't - that doesn't mean that GOD was onboard with the program. And - sorry but you're evading the main point here. Believing has nothing to do with this BECAUSE we WERE tempting God. Remember how God tells YOU not someone else...well, no matter what, even if God came to us and audibly told us not to hitch - we would have had to go. That still small voice didn't have a chance over lcm's big mouth.

OMG!!!! Devil to Jesus - "Go ahead and Jump - the angels will catch you!" Jesus to Devil - "UHHHH no! You don't temp the Lord." vpw and lcm to corps - "Go ahead and hitch - God will protect you." Corps to vpw and lcm - "Duhhhhh OK! We'll just believe!" So are you saying that Jesus' believing was off because he didn't believe that God would protect him? AND... if he had jumped and gotten hurt, maimed, killed - all his fault for listening to Satan. - For not recognizing Satan for what he really was. Hmmmmm - be careful how you answer this one.... Sooooo - maybe the Corps just didn't recognize Satan! Aha!

OM, I wonder...did you ever visit one of the Corps locations? Ever audit a class? Ever visit a person you were sponsoring? I know that as a sponsor you were sent mail every month - or at least nearly every month. What you don't seem to realize is that a person writing while in residence would NEVER have sent you anything less than a "I'm so blessed to be here...It's hard, but worth it.....Today we....God bless you!" letter. But - there were some real times of deep depression. I remember my first year in residence - I spent most of the time condemning myself because I couldn't keep up with the running program. Eventually, I got shin splints - but I had to keep running - had to get all of those aerobic points. I went to "Third-Aid" they just told me to keep running through the pain - that God would heal me.(LOTS and LOTS of condemnation for not being healed - where was my believing??) AND you couldn't get a waver from running without a written note from third aid. Finally, at the block change, a man familiar with sports injuries was put in third aid. I had gotten to the point that I couldn't walk down the stairs without my knees buckling - had to go down backwards. The room we had all our classes in was UPSTAIRS and I had to be there twice a day - this in addition to going up and down stairs to do my "job" - I think I was still in alterations in the basement of Kipp Hall - more stirs to go down - sigh. I almost had no hope when I went to Third aid - again. But this time, finally, the man, said, "Hey wait a minute - let me check. You have sciatica that came as a result of the shin splints. You are forbidden to run for at least 8 weeks!" Eight weeks later I was able to run and I more than made up for those points I didn't get earlier. Why was this seemingly simple solution so hard to attain? Because of that dang "Just believe" doctrine. Unfortunately, that man has passed away - so I cannot contact him and thank him - though I did at the time. The point of this story? Only that you, YOU- really don't have any idea of what you are talking about when it comes to describing the Corps training UNLESS you went and saw it for yourself. Even then, its unlikely that you would have come away with any sense of the guilt many of us carried for not measuring up. I RAN IN PAIN! Now I know better. Now that my own child is on track and cross-country, if she's injured we tell ask her all sorts of questions and take her to a doctor if there's an injury. Sending money to the Corps program doesn't qualify you to know what it was like to be there. My only comfort is that I never became one of those "snooty-look-down my nose-type of corps." I met too many fine people who never went Corps for me to feel like I was more than they. Oh and read through your posts - you're beginning to contradict yourself. That's the problem with defending an indefensible position......

My two cents here - if you will.... Some leaders were good men and women that were good to many - then succumbed (Nice word!) to the evil all around them. Still others were the opposite - men and women that were just abso-freakin-lutley mean at the beginning- then they got smart and realized they weren't doing what God wanted. (it happens!) THEN - there were the arses who were arses to begin with and then got possesed with the spirit of "Horse's-arse" Those were the generals! I'll venture a bet that some of the same people that hurt some of you are repenting and regretful of their actions. (I said. "SOME" not "ALL") Please give me time to duck before you throw the eggs....

WordWolf: I'm not running a program NOW because no one's beating down my door to sign up for one. Maybe if I snowed a bunch of youngsters and convinced them I and I alone had a UNIQUE and SPECIAL knowledge, then I'd get demand. We all know it worked GREAT for vpw.... WordWolf - I"LL sign up Ummmm - I don't have to hitch to get there, do I? Tongue firmly planted in cheek......

:(

I'm saying that this cheesecake WILL MAKE SURE you speak in tongues!!!! Seriously, I have made cheesecake my specialty - so, I'll make a "menu" and all of you can choose - if you want.

OM - I hear you - to a point. Please, please remember...TOTW was 10th Corps with me. Our first year in rez was the first LEAD program. It was not required for all the in-rez beings yet. Only the 8th Corps went and a few "select" 10th got to go. Now if THAT isn't a set up, what is? By the time we came back from our interim year we WANTED to go LEAD! We WANTED to do whatever it took to make us grow. I also seem to remember how vpw and lcm used to rant and tell us that we should never, NEVER expect "our people" to do anything that we would not do or had never done. Let me tell you, lcm may have hitched a few times, but he never accompanied the corps and hitched alongside us just to see "the spiritual temperature" out there. I'm not sure vpw EVER hitched prior to or after he was king - errr - president of twi. Remember, the saying, "revelation may change when circumstances change."???? I'd say that people dying and getting raped during hitching was a major change in circumstance. I repeat - the watchmen were asleep. For THAT they are wrong. Regarding the argument that if they drove (see conjecture below*), we would be blaming twi for someone falling asleep at the wheel. Well that may or may not be true - It doesn't change the truth of the argument at hand. Please keep your red herring in your pocket. *Depends - knowing twi they would have put an unreasonable timeframe on arrival that would have set up some unsafe conditions - but that's all conjecture. IF they had the wherewithal to use cars and safe drivers - perhaps they also would have taken some safety precautions - we'll never know. My point is that IF they were a different kind of ministry we might not all be here today, we just might be still singing from the blue song book........

Is it Dr Frankenstein or Young Frankenstein ?????