doojable

I have no personal axe to grind with anyone. I just don't see things in the same light you do, uptown1. My gut feeling is that any analogy of a group restoration is not relevant in this discussion because if you use Israel as an example, you are not really comparing apples with apples. I don't believe that God looks at groups as a whole - rather that He looks at the individuals in the groups and directs their paths. If the group as a whole listens - voila!! you have a group being restored. I'm going to watch and listen for a while and see where this thread goes....

Maybe they don't get along with each other.....

More dancing? :dance:

Are you equating Israel with CES? if you are, then what about the rest of the Body of Christ? I just don't see things from your perspective.

Ahem - If I'm not mistaken - God restores people not organizations. Individuals, souls, persons with beating, searching hearts.

I have had parents come up to me and tell me that I saved their kids lives. So many kids don't have the confidence they need to achieve academically. Sometimes they don't think they are good at anything. Then they discover this talent, this passion, and they just open up in other areas. Never underestimate the effect of what a giving a child a skill can do for his or her outlook on life. Its quite something to have a kid be praised by his or her peers for a skill that they really recognize. After that, if the right person comes along and shows this child how to parlay this skill into a career .....well, you get the picture.

Belle - it's just you - what are you adding to your coffee?

Is that why you're dancing, Sprawled?

CW - This is very pie in the sky - but mentoring parents would be something I could see working. Of course - many of these parents become parents while they are still children themselves. I see way, way too many pregnant girls in my daughter's high school - and we don't live in a bad part of town. Kids really do need as many positive influences in their lives as possible. Teachers, coaches, band leaders. Annnnndddddd...since I mentioned band leaders....studies have shown that the arts help children successfully express themselves through non-violent means. Not to mention that if a kid is at a lesson, he's not just hanging around on a street corner. The girl who stays afterschool to go to choir or get involved in the school musical has an identity that isn't gang related. These kids now become artists, musicians, dancers, actors - but not a Crip, Yo Dog, Blood or whatever other identity is unsavory in your town. As budgets get cut and more and more emphasis gets put on academics - the benefits of the arts are getting grossly overlooked. I'm not saying that sports arent' important , and I don't want to take funding away from the core curriculum. (curriculae?) Ok, so in a nutshell - mentor the parents, keep teens from becoming parents, keep the arts in the schools and even have some volunteer positions for artists to interact with students - this last one I have done and I have seen some amazing results.

OK - One more time - this time with feeling... Who here really gives a tiny little rat's chafed behind about the CES "God machine?" Isn't this really about the people it devoured. Music; amazing, healing, foot-stomping music, would not have saved that machine - It only would have lured more folks in to feed the beast. If you start with garbage, and add sugar and vanilla,bake it in a flaky crust, and serve it a la mode with the finest ice cream in the world -IT'S STILL GARBAGE! Playing music and raising your hands in worship while you serve it won't help either. And no, this recipe will not end up in the kitchen section.

Medium?

I am sure you are aware that prior to Moses the Word was handed down verbally, generation to generation. And - I'd be surprised if no one has figured out that all those Corps research papers were required so that VPW would have leg work already done for him. That was very plain to me in rez. We had to document everything and come up with solid research. And I know for a fact that those papers were reviewed by the research department and culled for "marketability."

Just enough to manipulate, and not enough to cause a blip on the radar of most folks.

Good points made Tom.

Ok, I've read and re-read this thread. I'm not seeing the racial slams that you are CW. Seems to me that Dot, named more than one reason for moving to the area she moved to. Not wanting to have a certain element near her home was a factor - but not the only factor. This seems like one of those times when everyone needs to go to their corner and re-group. BTW - My dad worked for the welfare system for over 25 years in the Bronx in NYC. He was an investigator which means that it was his responsibility to make sure that the folks applying for welfare truly needed it and continued to need it. There were times when he discovered that they no longer were eligible for benefits. This is the way I understand it: Statistics and race do play into the bugeting of funds but not in a way that is obvious. The powers that be look at who is on welfare, what category they fall into ( and NO - race is not the only issue - there's the elderly, the mentally challenged, the physically impaired, etc.) and then they look at the demographics of the state, city - whatever. Money is bugeted according to the proportion of the "at risk" population and any changes made in that ratio. This isn't a racial look at the situation - its a "cold hard facts" look. Statistics generally are used as numbers only. Anyway..... I'll just huddle here by the counter and drink my coffee. I think I've said all that I can for now.

Why of course, WordWolf! It makes sense to blame God - afterall, He doesn't seem to defend himself. (I say "seem" with tongue firmly planted in cheek) And even if He does - they can always blame it on Satan and say that Ole' Splitfoot is trying to destroy their works for God - whom they've already emmasculated with their doctrine. They have manipulated the circumstances so that they are Gawd Almighty themselves. So let's see if we got this right.....GOD makes mistakes, but the prophet is always right because he/she is just all so accurate all the time and is just a mouthpiece. (I need to go gargle with some lye after that statement.) This SOOOOOOOOO reminds me of that controversial movie from the late eighties/ early nineties - The Last Temptation of Christ Most of the movie was stupid - but the real kicker was the last 5 or 10 minutes or so when Jesus (who, in an alternate storyline, lives because he prayed to get down from the cross, marries Mary Magdalene and lives happily ever after) confronts Paul as he is preaching in Jerusalem. It went something like this: Paul preaching about Jesus Christ being crucified and risen from the dead. Jesus: Hey! Stop! I'm here. I never died. Paul: Doesn't matter. Jesus: Doesn't matter??!! Why not?! Paul: Because this is what they want to hear. It doesn't matter what really happened to you. The prophecies need to be fulfilled no matter if its real or not - they need this. So the wheels will turn - with or without God's sanction - and the only way it will be stopped is when people are fed up and finally see that they need to think for themselves. God is at work - but if folks are blind to His hand - then they are doomed to repeat this pattern over and over and over - ad nauseum

Even worse, Groucho - they've been making sure for years that they had a paycheck. They took the "CYA' concept and mastered it to the point that there was always a hoard of folks ready to cover their's. I've heard my fair share of quotes like, "Work smarter, not harder." this always indicated to me that these guys were only concerned with how to make a buck and have someone else do the work. Can't you just feel the love?

Happy Birthday Sprawled Out! Go make some music and have a good time.

Your turn, Count

Why don't we just leave them in the life boat and take the cruise ship?

Spot on Sprawled out ..... I think that so many times we (meaning anyone that this shoe fits) are so hungry for some sort of spirituality that we grasp at straws. It's made worse when a person at a pulpit starts spewing his examples of how The Almighty has blessed him by putting toothpaste on sale or made a light turn green. Somehow now there is an example to follow. The truth is that the truth frequently gets ignored. God's hand may truly be at work in a person's life - but it goes unnoticed because that person is too busy attributing the mundane to the CREATOR. The end result is that it really cheapens the real miracles, and waters down the times when God is truly at work. Afterall, if EVERYTHING is "wonderful and miraculous" then in reality NOTHING is wonderful and miraculous. Signs, miracles and wonders are supposed to stand out.

Bow - sometimes if the metal is damaged the scorch doesn't go away. If it's only burnt food you're fine, if the metal is discolored - good luck, On the other hand - the pans still work fine. I don't use teflon because it outgasses into the food. A forensic lab scientist once told me that polymers (something having to do with plastic) can be found in everyone's blood - and that can be linked to Teflon.

I've skitched, stitched, itched, sketched, scratched, and spit. Do I get my diploma now?

Dot - there was a bigger machine driving him - the money machine. These guys saw a vacuum and ran to fill it before someone else did. That's what happens when you're more concerned about yourself than you are with God and His people. As to why so many got so far down a dead end road....well they ignored the big, red signs that said, DEAD END ROAD! they ignored it every time they passed the signs, stuffed their doubts down deep in their souls, and kept looking for a way - any way that those signs could be wrong.