doojable

VP left this world with only one eye LCM left the cult - he was caught in a lie. He caused lots of strife And gave up his wife Now Rosie has her pie in sky.

Then come play with us! We're fun!

And some people want to make sure that no one ever gets wounded like they did. There are still others in TWI that are reaping the "rewards" of this sick and perverted line of thinking.

So....the conclusion of the matter? Another spot is absolutely correct - 100 years from now VPW will not matter at all. But for NOW what happened and who he was matters for some so that they can heal. John and Jean - I have no desire to push anything down your throat or to convince you of anything. Please don't assume that of me. Would you at least consider that your experiences (or lack of negative experiences - especially in the area of sex ) do not negate the experiences of others? I can only relate why this would be important to others from my own personal experience: I was in a Branch were an ordained clergy male was the BC. Apparently I caught his eye. He made a lot of subtle comments under his breath, the type of things that he could brush off as a "misunderstanding" if I chose to confront him. This went on for about 2 years. One night I was at a New Year's Eve party and I went into my friend's darkened kitchen to make a drink. I'm not going to go into great detail here but.... He quietly followed me in (I didn't realize he was there.) Then he came up behind me and whispered "How long has it been since you had a REAL man?" The next thing I knew, he had swung me around and was pushing himself against me as I was against the counter. OK all this not for pity. Years later when I confronted him about this for very specific reasons that I will not go into here on these boards, he just looked at me and said, "That didn't happen." (Big puppy dog eyes blinking real innocently here on his part.) I informed him that I was there and it certainly did happen. If he didn't remember it the only excuse I would accept was that he was possessed and couldnt' remember. He said that was a possibility! He did concede to making the lude comments and to other inappropriate acts. Ok all this to make a point. This was MY experience. (BTW I was able to push him off and I wasn't raped.) To have anyone tell me that it didn't happen is an insult. I was not drunk. I didn't imagine it. I was furious when he tried to tell me it didn't happen. He was playing the "its your word against mine" card. Anyone who hasn't been in this position cannot imagine how infuriating it is to be shown in just a few words that your feelings can be swept under a carpet. MY experience was MILD compared to that of many others. I can relate to their anger and frustration though. These people need to voice what they can when they can. It does help them to know that they aren't alone in their experience. It certainly helps them to heal from any shame they may have. Its easy to feel isolation and shame when something like this happens to you. It can be very revealing to see that there was a pattern and you weren't just "asking for it." I'm not accusing you of anything here. I'm simply asking for you to consider that just because your experiences in TWI were positive - that doesn't negate the things that others endured. I am not asking you to feel guilty for good things happening to you. I wouldn't wish the kind of negatives I witnessed and experienced on anyone.

What do you mean by "nice?" I've brought salad, bread, wine, and steaks. The steaks will only take 10 minutes to cook (though this depends on how rare you like the meat.) Casseroles can be dressed up. With a 45 minute drive - no matter what - unless its a salad you will need to reheat. Consider something like the idea above since cooking steaks can be faster than reheating a casserole. Wait to get there to put salad dressing on the salad and to cut the tomatoes. To make it so that you arent' standing around waiting on food, you can bring some veggies and dip to nosh while the food is getting the finishing touches. I'll get more ideas - just let me know....you can PM me if you think I can help. I'm sure there are others here with some more ideas as well.

If Stu chews shoes, should Stu choose to stew the shoes he chews? Unique New York Rubber baby buggy bumpers

Jean - I don't get your reasoning here at all. I'm sorry but this logic is faulty. Hey, Hitler is dead - so we can no longer visit the attrocities he committed? No, I'm not equating the two men. I am saying that when you have a puzzle and a bunch of pieces, the hole they leave indicates what the missing piece looks like. This is one way I was taught to study the Bible - you take the information you have and you allow it to point the the information you are looking for. This seems to be what I would call Inductive reasoning - theory, tentative hypothesis, pattern, observation. There certainly were patterns observed. Ask yourself this : You say that you didn't observe any sexual misconduct personally and you have mixed reports by others. The best "nay" you've gotten is, "Well, if it happened I didn't see it." You have no firm denial. Then there are lots of people that have posted about their personal experiences. I'm no genius but it seems to me that you are not looking at enough of the picture if the only pieces you are willing to consider are your personal experiences and a handful of people that say " I didn't see nuthin'." (Okay - that was sarcastic - sorry) It seems to me that while you say that Rascal is erring by only looking at the negatives, that you are erring by not considering them. (BTW it would be only one side of the story if there were only one, or at the most a handful of woman reporting this, but there are hundreds if not thousands of women who were affected by this doctrine and it came from VPW. I'd say he practiced what he preached.) I'm trying to look at this objectively - and I really have no reason to choose sides. But if you're going to argue that the whole picture be looked at - then you have to play by the same rules..... Now- this is a separate argument from whether or not the doctrine was sound. I've proposed that there must have been enough error for this kind of behaviour to flourish.

John - you quoted Rascal: quote: I think that sometimes arrogance prevents us from honesty. She said, "I think.." and "somtimes..." These words left some room for Rascal to say that perhaps she was mistaken. She voiced her opinion. Her opinion left room for a set of circumstances to not always be the case. She did not say "John your arrogant and dishonest." For me it all comes down to this: Does all of what we learned need to be correct? I don't think so. Do all the leaders need to have been perfect? Again - I'm saying, "No." But - were there indescrepencies in doctrine that lead to vile offensive practices? Yes! Perhaps now comes the hardest question of all: Can I live with the fact that each person will deal with the wrong doctrine and wrong practices differently? I'm prone to answer, "Yes!" Isn't it time to "agree to disagree" and move on?

It's not necessary to sit in judgement in order to exercise judgement. We are allowed to withold our trust until it is earned. We are supposed to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

OK - Time out here. One of the worst things that happened in TWI - by men and women - was people telling other people what was wrong with them. As if God himself had given a word of insight and now it was the duty of the "friend" to inform the other person what he saw. As I recall - Job referred to this type of person as a "miserable comforter." I'd say that when you can form planets and put them in the sky and make the oceans roar and the winds blow - then you can speak about what you see in another's life as if it God-breathed. In the meantime, I'd suggest softening the tone and allowing for your own error as to how you are interpreting the motives of the person in question. I shudder with disgust whenever I hear someone giving another person "insight" into their soul. John - you wrote" "Rascal, I don't try to appease you because all your rage is not going to make you any more peaceful. Even if every single poster on GSC sent you posts or PMs thanking you for "making them see the light" it wouldn't make you any more peaceful. You're tore up inside. You need an anchor of the soul. You have Xed out that hope because VP taught it to you. VP was only the sales rep; God's the manufacturer. Unlimited warranty. Sales reps can be fired, or die. VP didn't die for your sins. VP isn't the author of salvation. You need to humble yourself and ask God to pull you out of the whirlwind you're in." I'd be a lot more comfortable if you had at least left some room for your human error or possible misinterpretation of Rascal's "innerworkings" so to speak. I notice that Rascal says things like "it seems that," or "somehow I don't think." At least she appears to be leaving some room for error. I find it difficult to believe that this discussion will end up producing anything other than a p(ssing match. Jean - there are many more defendants that were produced by TWI. BTW - while the person could not stand trial - the proof could still be made in court as to the guilt or innocence of a defendant that has died.

perhaps one of those pictures is not working correctly - unless you wanted the Mad Mag guy as Batman....

Roy - sometimes love confounds us all. Keep on confounding!

I'm reminded of a song by Paul Simon Ace in the Hole Some people say Jesus that's the ace in the hole But I never met the man so I don't really know Maybe some Christmas If I'm sick and alone He will look up my number Call me on the phone and say Hey, boy, where you been so long Don't you know me I'm your ace in the hole Not meaning to be disrespectful here - just came to mind.

Isn't it possible that both sets of ordained clergy can be right? These two sets of people aren't mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible that the "evil deeds" happened and some saw and others didn't. I know in my life that I had things happen to me that were a direct result of how VPW taught his minions to act.

Jean - if there are a lot ( A LOT ) of posters here that have their own personal experiences they posted - isn't that enough?

She once ran the University of Life. Now she's stirring up strife She's got the chalet and the pool And her very own fool. She even has somebody's wife.

Dot - I was told in private that you were 11th. I didn't think that you had posted that anywhere so i just waited on you. I forgot about TooGray and HCW! I didn't know about WW and Doglover. YAY!

they are kinda cute tho - in an "elderly sort of way"

What rhymes with "hypocatastasis?" Well, this question is aces. Dogs! You say This was one way To insult all those "Rosie-ish" faces.

Rosie came from North Carolina, She never wanted to marry a miner. New Knoxville was her goal She wanted it all And she got it - with her vag......

Awwwww.... come back out and play! We ain't so bad...

Well said, Eyesopen! I never felt the need to defend VPW. I didn't know about his offenses until long after I left. Maybe I'm weird, but I always believed one thing - that we had to keep looking for the truth and admit when we were wrong. How did VPW get the way he was? Whether he was born evil or became evil, or was corrupted by power - the end result was that people were hurt, used, abused, and treated like dirt. THAT is all that matters. It doesn't matter that it didn't happen to me - it happened to someone. That it was done in the name of God - shameless. Now when people ask me about my younger years I tell them I was involved with a cult, though I didn't think so at the time. They don't look at me like I've sprouted a third eye and we move on to the next topic.

I did it. I never looked back. It was hard because I had to deal with losing friends that I had come to count on for support - but I did it all the same and I'd do it again.

Rascal - I was just playing referee - and I was anticipating a response from you to Jean. Sorry if I offended you - I didn't mean to....

Rascal, I evaluated all that I learned years ago. I decided that no matter what I learned it was time for me to re-learn a lot of stuff regarding how I dealt with people and how I thought and how I just moved through life in general. Maybe we are saying the same thing here but we got there by different means. I never took the approach that just because it was from TWI it was right. I just allowed myself to move away from ideas that were unstable. BUT I didn't do it on a "TWI taught this or that" kind of basis. I just started listening and observing people around me that I believed were better than me at Life. I humbled myself in more ways than I can relate. I got honest. In my opinion there is not just one way to do that.