doojable

I agree. I do, however see value in the process of talking things out. We get to read about a lot of dysfunction in the Old Testament. We get to read it over and over and over and over... Ever wonder if David is gonna say, "Sheesh! My thing with Bathsheba was over centuries ago! You guys talked about it way too much!" I was talking to someone about forgiveness. The subject came up whether or not to forgive meant forgetting. We both agreed that "forgetting" was God's deal, but we had to remember what we were forgiven of - so that we valued the forgiveness granted to us. Likewise I even remember why I forgive another person. It helps me - though I can't really say how. That's the only way I can state it. i wish I had more words to describe what runs through my mind here. Oh, and you have read my signature, haven't you? ;)

Jean - You're right. I didnt' mean to imply that Y2K was invented by TWI. I only meant that it was one of the justifications for keeping up the MAL pack concept. I'm not sure if it is still in use. A Family camp ten years ago... lots could have changed. It really could be that these kids are all fired up and re-committed. It could be something else.

Well, my point is not to focus on the flaws. But, much like the warning on a pack of cigarettes, I have no problem with saying that something might make matters worst. As I recall, in the OT the "watchman" was supposed to keep watch and sound a warning when danger was on the horizon. Sometimes that danger is in hindsight and stops the same mistakes from being repeated. Oh - and the closer you look at a rose the more beautiful it becomes - because eventually you get past the nicks and flaws and you see the design of it all. ;)

Larry - I said that there could be an unhealthy part of a body. My point is that there are many members in the Body of Christ. Not all are necessarily healthy members. I think that is the point of the analogy in Corinthians - where it speaks of one part hurting. Actually, I seem to remember two points to the analogy - but I'm going from memory here and I'd rather get my Bible and give it a look see. I'm real quick to acknowlege an error on my part if I messed it up. Feel free to go ahead though...

WE are the Body of Christ. We are fallen people - that will be perfected. Stop twisting scripture... <_<

A MAL pack was a More Abundant Living pack. It was a fully packed backpack ready to go an any time. We had teams we were to meet and a planned place to go. In every team all the basic essentials were covered (BTW to some extent this was the concept of how we worked together at LEAD.) This concept started sometime around '79 and persisted in some form or another until Y2K. The original idea was that we might need to "head to the hills" if the communists took over. In residence we were made to watch the movie "Red Dawn" to give us an idea of what we might be in for. I would think that with all the scares running about terrorism, that Rosie and Co. thought this might be a way to unite the troops.

Oh I'm sure way too much energy, effort and money was spent to cover up a lot of lies...

Well - even a tumor is part of a body. It even has it's own blood supply. That doesn't make it a healthy part of the body. I guess I see these offshoots in various degrees of spiritual decay.

Back to the topic: I have a hard time saying that vpw was a "good minister with problems" simply because of the way he started TWI. He started it with stolen goods. I guess that's like starting a hospital with stolen money. Sure, some good is done - but there is so much work to cover up the original bad act that eventually all the "good" is overshadowed by the deceit. Shoot, how many times did we hear vp say, "If you tell the truth you can forget it but if you tell a lie you have to remember it." Seems to me he knew this first hand.

For what it's worth, I didn't see Dan trying to give Dr. a free pass. He seemed respectful, and willing to consider. I don't expect everyone to totally agree with everything I say or do here. If we all agreed - this would be a very boring and useless place. It's the meeting of the minds here that has value. The processing of opinions and divergent views is how we grow.

Happy Birthday dear friend. You have a way of healing folks with just a few words. I'm proud to be your friend.

I think that a lot of what goes on here can be categorized as "processing." Coming to an understanding of what we did and why we did it comes in layers. This is complicated by the fact that for a lot of us, we got in TWI because we were seeking God and His will - and that journey hasn't come to an end. For myself, I sometimes wonder how much more I could have done for Him had I not had the detour. I find myself asking forgiveness of those who I got in TWI - especially those that had a particularly rough time while in. Perhaps if I had said, "Screw it all. I'm going fishing...." then I'd be happy as a clam right now. (no pun intended ;)) The truth is that I find myself holding my own feet to the fire with each and every thing that I find that I missed. I have mourned the times I could have helped a Corps sister or brother if I had only known what was bugging them. I wouldn't call it an "arrested development," but perhaps a "missed ministry" or a ministry that was held in abeyance...

Thanks for your comments AnotherDan. I see where you're coming from and I hear you. In my heart and mind there are two things to consider here. First - while it isn't for me to judge - God has given us criteria to ascertain a wolf in sheep's clothing for a reason. Second, I can certainly forgive a person and I have forgiven him. In order to do that I must still recognize that I have things to forgive him for. I have more to add - but I need to find the words...

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Black - but I'm gonna make that a double espresso! ;)

Okay, fair enough. I'm not really aiming it all at you - you just seem to be the person most likely to respond. I called for a breather on both sides. And I did say this:

There's a real part of me that wants to say, "Hey! Grow up dude! You can't play the superior intellect, forum savvy, bon vivant on one hand and then turn around and act like a finger pointing kindergardener on the other hand. You know as well as I do that posts criss cross and sometimes folks just aren't done getting it all out. YOU KNOW! - The child role doesn't fit you well... Ok I need to go do some things so that I don't come across as being the big bad parent here... I just came in for a cup of coffee...

To be fair, I'm don't think that Larry's intention was to "inflict pain." I think that he was trying to keep a sh(t storm that he saw on the horizon from bearing down with the force of Hurricane Katrina. Time to breathe.... In...out.....In....out...

Larry, First off Rascal is a "she." Second - Why go there? I mean - what is the point? Why engage in a p(ssing match over all this? (Honest question here - I'm talking just as I would if I were there in real life..)

I see we need another course on breathing. What I "see" and "hear" here is two different discussions going on. Rascal knows from the inside (her gut and personal experience) what healing has been in progress. Larry has another focus and sees a different result. I'm not in the mood to quote scripture here (Yes, I know I'm evil ) but I distinctly remember a verse in Ephesians that tells us that we war not against flesh and blood. Pick and choose the real battles - then fight the real enemy. As a parent I know how irritating it is for my kids to bicker. It really becomes irrelevant to me who's right and who's wrong. I can only imagine that God feels this way as well.

But I just don't want to get rid of the babies!

I think that Sudo just likes showing off...;)

Was that a fly by hello Jonny??? Or are you agreeing with me?

Can we switch analogies now? Sorry, but as a mother of two wonderful girls I cannot keep throwing out babies...

Hey D - I'm not going to find fault because you had a good day. I had to go out and buy school clothes so I'd trade places with you if I could... But - ya know, with as much learning and insight as we have here collectively, it seems to me that a lot more could be accomplished if we stopped focusing on the poster, and stopped treating them as a poster child, and instead just got on our knees and asked God how to be part of a healing process. That is what I learned in all my years since PFAL - not sure where it kicked in. Don't feel bad - you have the disadvantage - that dang Y chromosome. You know that Ginger did everything that Fred did - but backwards and in heels...;) (Got that one from Top of the World's quote of Anne Richardson.) Ham... are you in labor? :biglaugh: