doojable

That problem most likely came about because there the teaching of debbil spurts was so nebulous, and yet so "cool." The stuff in the Adv Class was supposed to be for the spiritually mature - but it was handed out to anyone who could pay for it - or anyone with itching ears. So rather than ask some questions, learn, get involved, get a clue, it became easier to blame spiritual forces. After all, didn't vp always talk about how spiritual forces were setting up against twi? I get a little ill thinking about the far reaching evil that came from the arrogance taught by twi.

Hope you don't mind, geisha.... http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?...&pst=116107 I just googled part of the sentence in quotes and I found the page. This came from a little more than halfway down the page, under the question heading "What kinds of people join cults? What's wrong with them?" The part geisha quoted was a little further on down the page.

I found a YouTube with George Carlin and Richard Pryor talking about the "n" word. I would have posted it, but I figured I'd just tell everyone how to find it. It's short- a little over a minute. (Hint Look up some of the info in the first sentence of this post.) When I was a kid we all noted that ethnic slurs depend on context. (I'm pretty sure most of the folks here thought the same.) Fill in the blanks in thought only: There are Italians and there are ________, ________, ____, and ______. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood so I I just happen to know more of these names. There are Irish and there are _____. There are Germans and there are ______. There are Jews and there are ____. I didn't even touch on racial slurs here - but my list can be just as long. The point we made amongst ourselves was that the alternate names referred to the bad apples in the bunch - NOT the group as a whole. Surprisingly enough, a lot of the names not listed but implied in the above list, came from Ellis Island. Context - context - context. Just some food for thought....

When did twi come up with its own interlinear Bible? I remember them using one put out by Zondervan. What's the HRV? (Does it stand for Hebrew Revised Version?

I never owned an Athletes of the Spurt coloring book (ew!) But those debbul spirts in the dance looked a LOT like some of the fellas in here:

OH now Bolsh.. don't read that....! ...you'll get possessed! *wink wink*

Now - would I have gone to a second twig fellowship if the people there had melted my face on the first contact? Not only NO!, but Heyyyyyallll NO! But that could be said of any relationship - abusive or not.

This makes sense if you're talking about a person as the abuser. BUT to treat twi as an entity that thought and acted as if it were one person - I don't see the parallel. I got in and stayed because I kept thinking there was something more - something I was missing. Truth be told - I had plenty of good times before twi. I just can't make the parallel as clearly as you can, brainfixed. No one tried to hold me to twi by evoking the good times. It was guilt that kept me in - perhaps why my knee-jerk reaction to guilt is so strong now.

You know... I don't think the good times were what held me to twi. There was something more - "the stand." I was one of those imbeciles that believed that I was taking a stand for gawdawlmighty against the wiles of the devil. I wasn't going to let ole splitfoot win. That belief fueled me on to stay way beyond any good times. After all, I wasn't serving me or man, I was serving the creator of the universe and my good times didn't matter.

Well said Geisha - but I'd like to add one thing: If I take on the sins of others - by extension - then I actually give those folks an easy out - by extension. Why should they have to own up to anything if I take responsibility for their sins? (At least that's how the thoughts of someone who is an abuser would sort things out.) Intents and effects... its a tangled mess.

T-bone - thanks for that post.

I in NO way diminished your input. The flogging comment came as a result of me remembering how Martin Luther used to flog himself as penance for his sins. Your ideas are your ideas - you get to say them - I don't have to agree with them. Your intents have no bearing on the effects of some of the things you say. (The road to hell is paved with good intents, as I recall.) I'm just putting forth how your words come across to my ears. Your agreeing or disagreeing with me is immaterial, nor does it make it black and white. This is a discussion.

I don't agree with your viewpoint. I do view your POV as black/white thinking. I'm fine that we don't agree. Perhaps you missed one of my earlier posts where I acknowledged the many different posters here and their POVs: I haven't diminished your viewpoint - I have disagreed with it. Please consider that a viewpoint can make either a positive or negative impact. But I do think that flogging yourself endlessly for the sins of others is embarassingly showy.

Rascal - I said that I thought your statement was naive. I made no assertions to your POV. I happen to think that black/white thinking is no way to deal with complex issues of humanity. I gave a different perspective regarding how and why people got involved and why they stayed - and that was admittedly incomplete.

Actually, rascal I think I do understand your position. I've struggled with all the various angles of this situation not only in the past few posts - but over many readings of the back and forth of many posters. I don't think you or (anyone else on this thread) want to make someone else's pain about you. I just think that to wrap yourself in that attitude has the effect of doing so. I'm trying to stand back from the oak and see the bigger picture - where the poison ivy lurks at the base of the trunk. I'm trying to point out that your position has ramifications that you aren't aware of. I have no doubt that your position has all the love you feel for people at it's core. Perhaps when it all gets put in writing and it's a HARD COPY the many facets become more real. I get the words -"Forgive them for they know not what they do." I get it. But now - 30 years out - I see a much bigger web. I have perspective.

I'm sorry - but I think this is a naive statement. The resounding call that twi was a cult was loud and clear while I was in-rez - and even before. Those of us already "in" didn't listen. Folks still took pfal. You cannot lay total blame on "our appearance of good, or purity, or any other endeavor" luring folks in. THAT takes the blame off the bad-actors (evil-doers) and puts it where it does not belong- plain and simple. Folks continued to join twi because they wanted to. Many of them ignored the warning that twi was a cult. Why? I don't know - but I suspect their hunger to find an answer was stronger than the warnings of the media, and the religious leaders at the time. And think about it... most of them looked at that green card in the hands of a WOW who was anything but prosperous. That WOW usually arrived to his or her destination in a beat up junker of a car, wearing tattered clothing with three other WOWs in the same condition. The folks pedaling that class were not ambassadors for those ten promises in the least. We are human. People find ways to be friends, sing, and find camaraderie in even the worst of situations. I refuse to feel guilty because my humanity allowed me to be nice to people and enjoy their company. THAT would be wrong. That would be handing over even more to a lying cult, a drunken leader, and the people he trained to do the same. It's dishonest in that if I do so, I take someone else's pain and I claim it as my own. It's a bastardization of compassion because I then become the focus. I make it about me and not about the true victim. As to the "honeymoon phase" that brainfixed described at the beginning of this thread, that description was about two people in an abusive relationship. When you extend that out to a group acting on an individual, it becomes much more complex. Now you're talking about at least four identities - the "victim", the abusive cult (a system), the person who has no idea, and the person who is abusive by nature. The honeymoon phase was there for everyone, and the squeeze was put on everyone. It was like a tent covering a crowd. Twi was already established long before any of us "got in." der victiod was already doing his dirty deeds before he went to San Francisco. Godly things happen in the most ungodly places. That doesn't legitimize the surroundings or the bad circumstances.

This is GSC - tongues will never cease

Just some questions to stir some thought here: If I buy toothpaste at the store and the company that (ultimately) gets my money takes that money and uses it to support ...name something.... nuking whales... does that make me responsible for nuking whales even if I don't know about it? NOW- once I find out about that action, should I decide that that is not a cause I can support, then I should do some research and find a toothpaste that supports saving whales -or at least not harming them. But does that mean that I need to lament my healthy teeth? Or do I take responsibility for my ignorance, and take an honest approach that will be a solution? We are responsible to learn from our mistakes. If a person chooses to turn a blind eye that person bears the brunt of that decision. If I begin to cry over my shiny pearly whites - haven't I made the "evil" about ME and not about the whales? This is another complex issue - and a one-size-fits-all solution simply won't do. BTW - has anyone here done some research as to what their dollars get used for?

Oh! I need to type in tongues and prophecy spiders: "wouer boons vokdn worns ouonf tongogotnt wrhne sosonsnsnsns"* "Yea verily, you shall clean out the filthy vermin and walk into the land of Zion. You shall be clean. You shall live with the holy spiders... forever. I call you unto holiness. The good times will hold you no more"* *The tongue of angels - They can type too, you know!

You mean "nerds" as in the hippies?

Isn't there a parade scheduled this week for the big event? Happy Birthday, Bow!

No - debbil spurts get caught in ear hair... kinda the same way a dream catcher works. The only problem is that the debbils get caught both on their way in and on their way out...

You're welcome, brainfixed. Like I said - I was just musing. There's a lot to be said for letting your brain rattle and seeing what falls out - kind of like a craps shoot for thoughts. This time was good, sometimes - well... you know how it goes. Thinking for yourself is great - isn't it? LOL: cult class - $100 (or more - or less) endless other classes - $1000 (or more) therapy - $10,000 (give or take some) Independent thought: PRICELESS!

Just throwing out an idea here: Sometimes I think there's a journey that arises from what a person needs at the time: *Some need to forget - because remembering is too painful *Some need to remember - because forgetting is too costly *Some need to rebel - because rebellion offers some form of control *Some need to conform - because conforming offers some peace from the friction *Some need to speak out - because they have been silenced too long *Some need to listen - because listening offers perspective There is no order, rhyme or reason to this journey. Some may not need any of it - they just turn their back and walk away. There is no formula, no cookie cutter answer as to when or how a person travels from a cult. Cookie cutter answers and quick fixes never really do much. Wasn't it the search for a quick and easy answer that started the mess for many of us? Just one class... Just these ten promises... Just this one green card... Just one year... Just three more years... Then - a lifetime of "commitment"... The last "ribbet" from the soup pot as it comes to a boil... Of course the journey back to some kind of life without a cult, without the quick fixes, is going to involve a process that is both complex and individualized. The "good times" fit in that complex mess and recovery in different ways according to what a person needs at the time.

hey Geisha - I'm a late comer to this discussion. I guess I separate the times from the cult. The thing I noticed way back when (pun intended) was that it was possible to meet and spend time with folks who never would have met had it not been for the shared experience of pfal. So I can call the cult the catalyst for bringing some good folks together. That I get. I can say that I met some great folks. THAT I get. But perhaps it's just not in me to give the cult experience more room in my life than it already has had. I'm not faulting you for you views, geisha - just noting my difference of opinion. In fact, I wasn't pointing that last post at anyone in particular.