Outin88.

Why would you want to see that pathetic "show"? Unless your looking for a good laugh! What a wonderful "christian" play that was. Not! They didn't even mention Jesus Christ in it! Seriously, I'm curious, why do you want to get a copy of it?

Here is a link to Messiah7 website with a brief history of TWI. The author Dr. John Juedes, A lutheran minister and a pfal grad who studies TWI and did a lot of research on this group. He has a lot of fascinating and eye opening information on TWI; http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rsr_vcchap1-2.htm And as Coolchef mentioned, the Cult that snapped is an excellent read which does give a good history of TWI, including as Polar Bear mentioned the hippies that hooked up with TWI and Wierwilles taking control over the Way West and East. The author Karl Kahler was a graduate of the 14h corps and is now a reporter for a Newspaper in I believe San Jose CA. He interviewed many people including those former hippies as well as many former high ranking leaders such as former trunk coordinator Ralph D. http://www.ex-way.com/ Another execellent source is Wordwolfs thread, "The way living in wonderland". Check the archives here at GS cafe. A brief synopsis, from what I know is that VP Wierwille graduated from seminary in the early 40's, was ordated and pastored a small church for a few years then pastored another for a few more. In 1942 he claims he prayed and God spoke to him audibly then made it snow to show proof it was really God. Wierwille began to rebeliant towards the leaders of his denomonation. They sent him to India to check up on missionaries, shortly after he he came back he resigned as pastor, apparently it was mutual with the leaders of the denomination. He took B.G. Leonards class in Canada and received permission to teach it. Only he called it PFAL and claimed it was his class. He started the vesper chimes youth caravan radio show where he preached. And also started TWI shortly after. Moved back to his family home in Ohio where he held weekly church services and did biblical research. In 1967 he filmed pfal and went to California where he had heard hippies were into the Jesus movement. There he showed his pfal class and invited them to come to Ohio in the summer for biblical summer school. About 50 to 100 showed up that summer of 1968. One Steve Heefner, a radio DJ had a job in NY where he was able to start fellowships run pfal classes and preach the word. Another Jimmy Doop went back to California and started the Way west where he ran pfal classes, fellowships and preached the word to hundreds. Other went to the midwest and the south and ran classes. TWI began growing fast and Wierwille wanted to control it, plus as PB said get the money sent to him in Ohio. Wierwille showed up at Jimmy Doops area and told him he was taking over. He essentially did the same to Heefner. All this is Karl Kahlers book, the Cult that snapped. By the early 70's Wierwille started the way corps program and used those graduates as leaders to control TWI. TWI kept growing and in 1982 Wierwille retired hading the "mantel" to LCM.

I haven't read all the posts, but noticed exactly 666 views for this thread! Is that a sign? Sorry! I just think it's sad that there's a lawsuit amoungst Christians, really pathetic imo! :(

Good points Mark, you are a wise man. Some of us were hurt (for a little while) because we did believe it and were emotionally invested in it for a time. Some of us now feel embarassed at being conned and sometimes get a little annoyed at folks that still profess admiration towards those we feel had dupped us, or doctrines that some of us now feel are bogus. Well I know I do at times.

Me too! Yup, I bought into the whole package, drank the cool aid and pretty much believed whatever they taught. I was young when I took the class, and didn't know the Bible at all, so after hearing it explained (what I percieved at the time) logically, I trusted TWI completely. Much to my embarassment now. Well, as I said I was young and naive. Now I will say that I'm still a believer in God, the Bible and Jesus Christ. I do believe that some of what we were taught by TWI is correct, and some of it was cr@p.

You'll be missed JL. I go away for periods too, but as Oak said I always come back. Hope you do too from time to time.

In TWI, we were taught “believing” is some kind of special power, where we could believe for things that we wanted. Name it claim it so to speak. We just had to stay our mind with a “believing image of victory” and we’d get what we believed for. And that it is a law that works for saint or sinner alike. (Chapter and verse please). I have notes from TWI teachings on the subject of believing where it was taught that we should “demand” what we are “believing” for, that it’s God’s law and therefore if we believe big enough He has to bring it to pass. Believing takes place in the mind, and there really is no power of your mind outside your own body. No where in the Bible does say to “believe for things”. I do see in the Bible that we can have faith, (Pistis) which means trust, we can trust in God and His promises. Faith requires an object to trust in, such as God, Jesus Christ or promises by God. But the so called law believing as taught by TWI was nothing more then trusting in our mind power, or believing in our believing, IMO. Our English word “Faith” comes from the Latin word “Fides” which means “trust, confidence, reliance, belief”. Wierwille said believing is a verb it connotes action, and he’s right, but the Greek word Pistis which is often what Wierwille was referring to as Believing is a noun and is better translated faith or trust. The Greek word Pisteuo is the verb form, and it would be translated believe or believing and is an exercise or acting on faith. It’s not our believing as defined by TWI. It’s our trusting God and acting on God’s promise to bring it to pass. An example of faith and acting on it is the story of Elijah in I Kings 17:1-6. God tells Elijah to go to a brook and Ravens will bring him food. Elijah trusts God and acting on that faith in God Elijah goes to the brook. It wasn’t Elijah telling God to feed him, it was God telling Elijah go here and I’ll feed you. Elijah simply trusted that what God said would happen. And it was God’s power that brought it to pass. Faith is such a simple thing for God to require of us, it doesn’t require mental gymnastics to get our believing up, or having believing with teeth, it’s simply trusting God to fulfill His promises. We can have faith in, or believe God to receive the promises of God, (written or verbal). But it’s not our will be done, it’s His will be done. We don’t demand things from Him, but we can ask of Him in prayer (James 4:2, 3). Is fear negative believing in reverse? Not from my study of scripture. The fear in the heart of a mother cannot cause the death of a child, that’s ridicules. Again, no where in scripture does it say this. Wierwille taught this based on one verse in Job. Job feared for his children and Wierwille taught because “it’s a law” it came to pass, causing Job’s children to die. Bologna! Job was simply making a statement. We all have fear at times and most of the time nothing bad happens. II Timothy 3:12 tells us that all those living Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, further it says to rejoice in sufferings or tribulations in Romans 5:3 and that these tribulations or suffering will produce patience or perseverance, Romans 5:4. Looks to me that if your living godly bad stuff will happen based on scripture, but says noting about if you aren’t believing enough or if you have fear. Jesus said there would be wars, earthquakes, famine (Matthew 24:6, 7). One only has to look at Paul’s ministry to see that he dealt with many hardships (2 Corinthians 11:23-28). Did he have fear? Maybe he just wasn’t believing big enough? No, we have an adversary, and we live in a fallen world, and sometimes bad things happen.

I John 3, I admit, I came on a little strong in my posts, but really I think you are taking some of the different viewpoints and questions as attacks when in reality they are not. At least not on my part! Sky said it well, and I thought it was worth repeating.

Amen Dawn Redwood. Here are the verses you were thinking of in James. James 4 NIV 13Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." It's not our will be done, it's His will be done. We ask God not tell God, we have faith in God's promises and it's His power that brings them to pass, not our believing in our believing. Danny stated it well. "The whole teaching was making a little idol or big one putting it before God and saying why do I need you I have believing." dmillers story of the guy believing to win the Harley is a typical example of how we were taught in twi. But again the word says to ask, knowhere in the Bible does it say to "believe for" something. check out these verses also in James 4. "2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures."

Does CES have any hope? Not sure anyone knows at this point uptown1. Reading dmiller's post reminded me of when they were first starting out back in 87/88 it looked like the makings of a good Christian organization. They had the Dialogue magazine where anyone could write a reseach paper or letter and CES would publish it, then anyone could critique it and write back their thoughts. GSCAFE's own Mark Sanguanetti (SP?) used to contribute articles. letters and papers. Back then Jal, Sue P!er(e, Ralph D and John S would come to your fellowship or area and teach what they had been learning from the Word if requested. And they would hang out with and fellowship with folks. You could even disagree with them and they'd actually listen to people who offered advise and have discussions. You could buy their tapes and books, or not, no pressure, I heard JAL say more then once, if you can't afford their stuff, and if you asked, CES would give it to you. In fact I saw him do just that with some folks one time. Back in 88/89, I remember John S. saying "CES is not going to tell you what to do". What happened? Once they decided to have fellowships only associated with them, have leader training and ordain people, with a heirarchial (SP?) structure, plus got into momentous and pp which appears to have gotten way out of control. It looks to me like CES became another TWI type of organization. Yes Uptown1 they did produce some excellent biblical research and even corrected several doctrinal errors of TWI. But did they ever completely get rid of the cult influence from TWI? I don't know everything going on with them, but based on reading some of these threads/posts, it looks like they have not. Will they make a recovery? I don't know. I just know that I won't participate in a group like that. Their still my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I'll pray for them, but maybe they should disband, find jobs and a good Church to attend.

I wasn't suggesting you debate the subject of the so called "Law of believing", I was suggesting you read those discussions and maybe learn something from those who have actually taken the time and studied to show themselves approved... When I was in TWI, many times when someone had a problem people would judge them for "lack of believing" or fear. "John is sick again, it's his lack of believing. Jane was fired from her job, it's because she had fear in her heart." What nonsense. $h!t happens and sometimes people get hurt. Look at the twelve disciples, 11 of them were martyred. Where was their belieivng? How about Paul, he was whipped, beaten , ship wrecked, hungry, left for dead and eventually beheaded in Rome. Gee, he must have been a poor believer. He really could have used some believing with teeth! I showed you from my previous post that you mistranslated the word Faith for believing. Have you actually studied the scriptures to see if these things are so? Or are you just parroting what you learned from Mr. Wierwille?

I believe the verse goes "Without FAITH it's impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." That word faith, is the Greek word pistis. Which anyone who has studied that Greek word will tell, pistis is a noun and it's basic meaning is trust. Mr. Wierwille taught believing is a verb and connotes action, unfortuanely he often would refer to that word "faith" as "believing" which is incorrect. 1 john 3:1, there are several very good discussions in the doctrinal section, or in the archives where this so called "law of believing" has been discussed, you might find them interesting to review.

Hi PL, I've checked out four offshoots including CFF. However it's been nine years since I was last involved in any offshoot! My expiences with CFF was when they were first getting started in 96/97 timeframe. So I'm not current with them. But my experience was that they were the most loving of all the ex-TWI groups I checked out, very friendly, very kind. Thier fellowship was exactly as I remembered from earlier TWI days, same format, same teaching, same manifestations, same songs etc. But as Skyrider said, they were too into VPW for my taste. Constantly talking about what a great MOG VPW was and were teaching some of his erroneous doctrines such as the "Law of believing". A big turnoff to me. Today, I prefer to attend church when I'm in the mood. I really like the praise and worship in this one chucrh I attend. There are some great churches out there. Yeah they teach some erroneous doctrines too, but for the most part they are loving and offer some great programs, like Eagle pointed out, they often have support groups for specific needs such as divorce, drug abuse etc. I wouldn't highly recommend any ex TWI offshoot. Yes some of these groups offer some excellent biblical research, CFF has some very good biblical teachings, so does LMCI and even CES, at least some of their earlier stuff, though with their current mess, I'd be very hesitant to trust their later doctrines. Honestly based on my own biblical study, I haven't found one group that doesn't teach something I disagree with. I forget who wrote it, but someone said something like, that all these ex TWI leaders really need to take time off before starting a new ministry organization so that they can heal, learn to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and allow God to lead them. But they really need to de-waybrain first before leading others. I think that was the jist of what they meant. And I think thats a good point. My advise PL, is seek the Lord Jesus Christ and God, search your heart and allow God to work within you to find the place that best fits your need and where God wants you to be.

Doglover said; Corinthians instructs the Christian believer to give as he purposes in his heart ... no percentages are mentioned or implied. We aren't under the law, so we don't have to give any particular amount ... it is just as we purpose in OUR heart ... not as some organization purposes and then dictates to us. Whatever amount we purpose in our heart to give should be given cheerfully ... not out of fear of what will happen if we don't give. God is not a Mafia boss to whom we pay protection; He is a loving Father.

Whoa, talk about waybrained! Billy Graham has reached millions with the gospel. And maybe some of what he preaches isn't 100% accurate, but at least he teaches a message of Christ which can help people get saved.