pond

joseph got into it with his brothers. forgave them tho i also think it teaches us to rely on God instead of our blood line. learned that a few times myself .

i think it is about learning co-dependency . controlling or abusive parents taught the dynamics of becoming co-dependent.. on the abuser. How do we get or give love? twi filled the bill properly for many .

Word wolf i realize you try to put the thread together in a concise way .. but you know the bible is a crazy book for example it says an foot could talk to a man when he was being wipped! so now i can know for sure if i beat my horse it will complain to me about the pain i inflicted? the fact elizabeth called the promised child a "babe" does not really qualify as "premediated murder" in and of itself does it now? i see no more conclusion in that leap than i do all absence of "fruit" qualifies as a abortion.

then the blood would be life and a abortion would be the termination of a life but does that make it murder? so if life begins at conception is it necesarily murder to have an abortion? any scripture regarding this or not? I do think the fact God breathed life into Adam may be because he was the first creation.. like jesus and the virgin birth. was an extrordinary thing He did ya know for the needs of the moment type thing. God can do that but it doesnt mean that every man that follows will have the same "rule' to be alive does it? i do think if a person believes it is murder than it would be for them .

Blood has nothing to do with it. Without a medical lesson, just take for example the abundance of test tube babies most blood types are compatable and in one case if it is not parents are checked Before they get pregnate. it is a particular gene that carries this sometimes . the "pressure you refer to must be the difference between breathing air and breathing water in utero, a baby can and does breath in the womb but they are under water yes the pressure out side the womb considered gravity does change forcing the child to now breath air. but the bigger point would be at what point is this possible not even really as a respirator is common in medical treatment today so a person at that point has NO BREATH LIFE of its own! yet they are far from dead! also we can now treat 8 oz babies born long before their lungs are capable of breath.. are they not alive yet?

A handicapped child might very well be born with the same parts amiss or lacking all together, a child that lives only a few hours by twi standard will go to eternal life by the parents Believing . Achild burned or some other tragic accident would not have "parts" the parts have nothing to do with it Galen God gives us new bodies. why if it was all about a PARENT believing for a baby to recieve eternal life, would it change just because a baby took a breath and a child in the stages of pregancy did not? Why couldnt you use the same standard? a parents believing for the child to have eternal life? because they have not taken a breath? seems rather stupid , when the only thing vpw said was needed was a parents believing. aparent could also believe that the still born or miscarred child could go to the kingdom as easy as that. I know the verse about God breathing life into Adam in is that why every one thinks people must take a breath? to be able to go to the kingdom? I do not believe it.. not for a minute people decide who is going to serve God and what if Mary said um no way God and freaked out and refused? another woman would have been called to perform Gods plan. Like plenty throughout the ages have not refused Gods instruction. sure it comes to when God created us but I thought we established THAT was before the foundation of the earth itself!!! so if im pregnate with a child that is called before the foundation and abort the baby God just erases that child of his from eternal life? I think not.

Twi also taught that a disabled child or a child who died before they could confess Jesus is LORD they will be in the kingdom because of the parents BELIEVING for the child! remember? well then why would the cut off point be in the womb? If the theory of a parent will cover for a dead infant or disabled child why would the same not be available for a miscarriage? Is it to impy God can only heal a person after he/she takes a breath? I do not think so..the promise is new body.

The King james says my mother might have been my grave. maybe he is talking about dying in the womb, maybe he is talking about never being born as the prophets often did because their life was so miserable. but that is not in the record of the fruit departing used in these last few posts and that is the one i was referring to.

Since when did twi find any "evidence"? the word "research" is used like it must mean golden YET how much of a leap it is to assume it must mean an abortion.. or like an abortion? Sure we can assume alot like woman even Had abortion in bibical times...no record of that then leap to oh this verse must address abortion. What is happening is typical of twi "research find an idea like "breath life and body soul and spirt.. then dig and streeeeetch a verse to try to make it fit into what theory you made up in that so called research. I think what no one has metioned yet is the cry of the soul of those who have miscarried and whether or not that "baby" will have eternal life or live in the kingdom. That is more to the point of what twi was saying.. not even the murder part of the situation but who will be included in the kingdom without this breath life vpw taught that even a cherished wanted child would never cut the mustard for eternal life if he/she did not take a breath outside of the womb. this is a very radical conclusion and I see no base for it what so ever in scripture. without twi link to this verse which has been noted as quite a stretch and typical of using one scripture to support another without any "evidence" what so ever that they have anything to do with one another. it can stand alone and just what does it say to you?

If a woman lost her baby in a miscarriage such as the one described , she would be hurt she would be sad she would feel a loss. she would onder and grieve maybe forever. What if she became angry at God? what if she began to doubt her minstry her family, what if began to feel her husband no longer loved her? whatif the loss was so great she never fully recovered from the pain of the loss and lived in depression and guilt the rest of her life? Is this not a sin? Is this not a wrong to one of God's beloved? To turn this event in a persons life that brings sorrow and loss into well did she have a soul or not is rather twisted . I do not think this is about who took a breath or abortion at all, I think it is about stealing and hurting Gods people and how to deal with it. twi has everyoone convinced it MUST be about abortion what makes you so sure of that?

John If a person can find out in the manner you describe they can find out your past. I do not deny it i do not neccesarioy bring it up but if somone metions it i do say I wasinvolved again I feel no shame from being involved. not just believers this is a city and i was have been around for forty years bound to happen si I do not sweat it. Your witness is one thing a stumbling block is such if they only eat vegtables and you allow meat..etc. do not make them eat meat or say it is Gods will. that is a stumbling block. Early christians involved other religons in their beliefs on how to worship God and over trival religous matters such as food God says do not stop them from enjoying their service or worship. but your past is quite a different story, by your theory the Apostle Paul would have never spoken a word. or serve the Saviour. he killed christians and they feared for their life from him. for good reason. His past was one he couldnt run away from and it didnt bother him, nor did it hinder his ministry in any manner.

past is past Johnny but truth is also truth. I knew many people when i was involved and I still live close by to the drama times so the odds are one of my adult kids or relatives run into another believer is likely and you know what Im not ashamed either. I do not have anything to hide and my life really isnt so powerful I can put a stumbling block in anothers path.. I trust my own judgement and I trust God and I am accountable to many. If God has brought a person into my life and they want to ask me anything Im an open book and I can walk without guilt or shame if they have a problem with that it doesnt belong to me.

I agree most states cant govt. their own politcal jobs much less try to manage families in America.

I believe my sister had a drinking problem for many years. I was sober I watched, she is still in denial about it. what helped my sisters depression was the drepresion she drank, she really drank way to much and now claims it was "self medication" I believe all her alcoholism brought this on now excused because she can now take a pill . She began drinking as a teen. to be sober must be difficult after forty years... and she didnt do well. so the dr. put her on medicine. she said it changed her life. she no longer showed up at christmas with a case of beer and two bottles of booze (just for herself) not kidding or adding to her problem.) sure she didnt get confronted about the booze as much it now took less to be drunk. to feel out of it . for awhile . she has always been a very high functioning drunk as many of my family seem to be untill it gets more difficult and more booze is needed and we get older and it just isnt as "cool as it used to be. so the pill helped. she looks better seems to be better but I havelimited my interactions with her after years of the mess. so who really knows how one is doing on the inside? esp if they are not honest and have spent years in a denial trap. we went to a reunion for the family and i reminded her five times to take her meds she was so drunk she kept forgetting. she is young has blood pressure out of control all kind of issues YET it is all about the panic and anxiety not the years of alcohol abuse. and now she has the "meds" to help. her poor body will not take much of this IM sure. i think she will die young like elvis and marilyn why do the great ones struggle so with this type of life? I asked her once if she ever would consider stopping the medicine and she siad no way. the dr. never once address her drinking of course she would sing the song of denial . never saw it as a problem .. america supports alcohol abuse in so many ways,so here take this and this and now she has enough meds to not have to drink gallons a day and still carry on in a life of numbness. If I could hear more say to me I was able to stop taking the drugs after I did some work onmyself I would be more hopeful about this avenue but frankly that is not what I hear i hear dr. givng people serious drugs to deal with life without even considering what is really going on. A person who can not function who needs medicine to function and never confronts their own personal path in life just takes pills to cope does not get well nor does the quality of life improve or issues get resolved if that is the best we have to offer people I frankly do not think it is good enough.

I think some may suffer with the sins you metion bramble and indeed it is a trick of satan himself to burden Gods people with such pain. IN my previous post I metioned what the real issue is.. and the pressure of sex is also very painful and hurtful and I think an abortion brings it to a point one has to consider how they got to this point of choice in life. In a healthy Godly marriage abortion is NOT such a huge issue, it is when one is messing in what the world dictates as love and sex that a person has to look at how this pregnancy may have happened in the first place. and That is very uncorfortable and much denied in this sin tainted sexual society we live in. satan uses it to beat the crap out of Gods beloved. I know you may have a circle of friends who need to rethink why they made the choice to abort , but given the numbers we have of abortions in America alone I really do think it is that much of a self condemnation or guilt choice for many who are not dealing with the love of God in their heart.

Jesus calls us friends. Jesus gave up His life for us all of us. I think of the example in scripture of who Jesus Christ was as a standard of how to make healthy choices in life. I believe a personal relationship with Jesus today is just that personal, to be shared with His bride. It isnt a competition God made ,it is a family, a kingdom for HIs KING of KIngs. It is a love thing. Jesus Christ brings us peace from the strife the world offers, we in turn can be thankful and listen to how to be "like HIM" in service to one another . How that is done is really learned by the individual relationship one has with the LORD of all. Twi was a people thing for many, claiming to serve God, but without a relationship with Jesus Christ only serving man , the result was often confusion and pain .

I think cult is a very wide term for many organiztions people can get involved in . If one asks if I participated in the way internationals fellowships or its spin -offs I would gladly say a very loud YES! My son as a teen was approached on the street by a guy who told hime all about the way being a cult .. he came home and asked me about I gave him my own personal spin. I have no problem with that , what I do have problems with is controversy over scripture and what it means. I shun discussion of what the bible may say or not if I feel it will end in discord or strife or hurt feelings . If someone is into the trinity I may say I do not believe Jesus is God, but leave it at that and continue listening to their ideals . At this point most all of what I confess as truth from the bible I own in other words I personly believe and am convinced it is truth for MY life. not a cult teaching. but IM not one who was ever involved for the people of the cult , so it is different for everyone Im sure.

I think the people seth is referring to on grounds may be family members or previous owners of the farm . graves that are not clearly marked this was common in the country to bury family members on the property making a family plot. In time if sold or everyone dies off the markers fade away but the record of the death remains. my father loved guns he had hudreds and i sometimes wonder if my mom at times was intimidated but NO as Mark said it is quite a leap and even if true early on in the marriage it would not have been considered "against the law" to keep your woman under control. I know today is different times have changed. I was also afraid when i left and i remember thoughts they will kill me.. it is a wild thing leaving a cult. Seth your not alone I thought it was so frightening now it seems very ridiculas but at the time i remember thinking i would die by their hand as well. it was a strnage weird time. man just thinking about what I thought is a trip.

vegan I know it would appear that it is about men choosing what is right for a woman.. um maybe the choice was not up to a woman??? I would think the procedure may be performed by a male, and the culture was one of patriarchy was it not? good question.

shellon always is the first to say HI in chat it seems.

tis true but a serious mental illness doesnt leave a whole lot of room for choice for many. before my sister took her paxil she went from a sexy modern working woman with a great life to a little frightened girl living in filth unable to leave her home. today she is much better , and living a good life. I think what happens is you think it will go away and sometimes it doesnt then it gets worse and then it is out of control and you end up paying a very high price for the struggle. money and insurance is another issue for many who are sick.

it is noble like i said your believe that one should "pick up the slack" the thing is even the folks able would not be able to have a house full of the type of children that would be born without abortion. the crack babies and minorities that do manage to survive the pregnancy are troubled for many many years and have issues beyond what any loving normal family could handle. people want white healthy babies. a a few more billion every year and what would we do? the parents can not or will not care for them where would they go who would pay for their care and medical expense that lasts an entire life time? many would be hiv and or disabled mentaly and in some way due to abuse by the parents.. so it would not be like you would have a reward at the end of the road other than a child dying or suffering for life time. like Galen said he had foster kids he can tell you how difficult it is just to house these kids born with problems beyond most can understand. we cant house the children that are alive! the foster care system in America sucks and is riddled with abuse. I think it is great some i should say few will " pick up the slack". have you seen the slack? imagine it if abortion was out lawed. I know my mom was unable to have children IM adopted and i have family members who have great difficulty and some think they will not have kids soo I get your wonder.. but trust us getting pregnate is NOT such a difficult thing for many it is not even a thought it is something that happens without reason, surprise surprise really the bigger issue is how to garuntee one doesnt get pregnate isnt it? we had a lady here with 9 very disabled kids in foster care, crack alcohol abuse.. and it is common. teen pregnancy is out of control. but i do get how you do not get it and how very special your kids are. my nephew and his wife have four under three and she is due again in nov. (twins) mom is 20 years old.

If Mary had died during the gestation stage and the pregnacy terminated or if she had a miscarriage. Would that mean we would never have a Saviour and God's plan would fail for mankind? of course not.. it is all about what an individual can do with the Almighty creator of all. we adore those storys of the 8 oz baby born to live a happy fullfilled life what a blessing and miricle from God. Yet God is no respector of people and if a woman is pregnate and truly cant manage a child for health or whatever reason does God say to bad for you it is to late? would you even love your own child in such a manner risking their own death? God knows who is His before the foundation.. if a woman aborts a baby that is HIS does another get pregnate with that individual? it wouldnt be that person would it? not if we went by what science consideres a person dna would be totaly different wouldnt it?

The seed of Abraham was need to build a nation of twelve tribes , we needed a Saviourand the line needed to have been from Gods own "blood" (people) God sanctified unions within his rule and problems did occur as written. Jesus Christ brought in some new Rules from God concerning marriage and divorce . the world is going to wax worse till the end of the party, as such, it follows that "before time" was less involved in illness and sin and problems at large .

research has found the gene which causes alzheimers. the disease can be diagnosed in very young adult hood. this why we have seen the recent medicines. . How the disease progresses or doesnt is really up in the air right now. we know the end stages and the progression in symptoms well , but not how long or fast any individual may present in the discourse. The test for alzheimers is not given to most until symptoms are present. I know i would not want to know as a young adult, if i was not having issues.