pond

moral you want a moral standard from God? ok God gives us a choice to CHOSE whether we abort our own life or recieve life eternal. Death or life is up to each individual , God does not dictate what you will chose. that is a moral standard if I eveer saw one. He leaves no question how it is defined , He says you will be murdered . God didnt creat His people to be killed or to have a short tempory life, but it can and does still happen because some will not make Jesus LORD> now when your talking "standard" how is that one from God? it does bare reapeating Oak a thousand times until people understand how much God is into Justice, who is the one who killls steals and destroys our life and who decides If it going to happen. this is the very cry of Jesus Christ and all of mankind. It is a choice God gives each person to live or die. As far as who will recieve eternal life it is written in the bible. and quite clear. Abby if you have issues with christian doctrine one of the rules is the bible is to be used as an authority on this thread, then take it up with that. unless the rules change to accomadate, posters at will.

the article speaks on the types of lights he used I think this was taken at dusk or night time and he made the shadows with the lights from his air machine. that is why it is so spectacular.

the bible talks a great deal about the "heart" of people, and it doesn not look so good does it? all bad as a matter of fact. it is a choice wheich means if you believe it is evil do not do it? and that is the entire bible. that is the call of worship that is being born again. What God condsiders sin is death its very self. Jesus Christ bought a redemtion with his own death! the picture is so huge you guys just cant it or something. he clearly says in exodus in matters concerning one an another allow the courts to determine what is right and wrong in the LAW> we are not forced to get abortions in america. it is a choice and a legal choice, as far as God is concerned none of this should be happening no one should die yet because of the chices we make and the sin we live in and do we have a grace time and we are allowed to live. if you will not make Jesus christ LORD of you life you chose to abort your won life to the mere time line we have now. what do you think God is concerned with? His creation dying at a very young age in a world full of trouble and death and sin ? WEll He hasmore on His plate than a"fetus" it is all of mankind that rejects Jesus Christ as lord that will be aborted and die!!! he doesnt want any of us to die ever!! He doesnt want His people to abort their own life and die yet he gives us the choice, to accept Jesus christ as lord or not. Death is the enemy. Jesus christ took care of the sin issues, thank you Jesus. do we still sin? um yeah that is why God says to make laws concerning your injustice to one another.

your right Oak I reread and I was wrong you referred to god of this age from weirwille not the romans 13 thing my mistake. love has to do with everything God does. veganX that is why we have a choice to live or die. Because if He didnt love us he would just dictate and we would be pawns . discussing if it is legal is what God is all about it is why we have a Redeemer it is why we have death . If anyone was ever into obedience it was Jesus christ and if anyone ever held to his own laws and rules it is God God is nothing but legal that is how the entire bible is written . permission doesnt equal command come on now oh really Jesus was offered the entire world by satan and chose the answer of no. I think your point is silly given the fact for many pages no one has been able to come up with even a verse in the bible that metions abortion. No one in america is commanded by law of our land to get an abortion, it is a option for a medical procedure one can chose or not chose . God considers all death the enemy , and Sin. the enemyand sin is bad jerry. lol If we did not have laws Jesus would have never been sentenced and murdered . yet we did and do and praise God was able to show us a better way when He raised Jesus from the dead. to prove Gods majestic power for all to know! i would say the thing about it being legal is a mighty big thing. it is also about a Father who alows His children to have choices and to do the right or wrong thing. because He loves us.

The topic is abortion. Do you want to talk about a medical procedure? Do you want to talk about life and murder or killing ? death is Gods enemy that is clear. everyone alive will now die eventualy because of sin. till the kingdom comes. the idea of choice is life or death in abortion and in every single persons life. Is this YOU CHOSE to ABORT your own life if you do not chose to make Jesus Christ Lord. Does God think it is ok? He wishes only good and Love for us. but it is up to you to decide if YOU will live or die. that is why he gave us a CHOICE to live or die. forever. We can abort life or we can chose life in all eternity. Crimes comminted are dealt with in the courts , we are commanded to obey the civil law Romans 13. When Jesus was in the garden being arrested he could have called on many to help him, he obeyed the law of the land and was punished for his crime in a VOTE by the religous people in the court, a murderer was set free that same day by the CHOICE of the people. abortion is legal in America. God does not force anyone to live or die it is OUR own choice. this can not get any more basic. or simple.

tom I believe he meant mankind for whom he was suffering for .

God considers Death in and of itself an enemy. The author of death is Satan God arch enemy, It is a battle for the people, that is what LIFE is . God is our life he is our creator. We have the Victory in Jesus Christ by His death, and God PROMISE of the resurection!!! WEll if you believe in Romans 10 and 9 that Jesus is Alive and sitting with God.. then we have a solution in making him LORD in our life. while here God is bound by his promise and Satan is the author of death, he reigns till Jesus christ will destroy him . as far as legal contract that is a BIG one and God HONORS HIS word God is a fair God and a JUST God. He promised isreal a redeemer and he could lie or back down on HIs own words hence Jesus Christ. we can have eternal life death will be destroyed etc... in HIS kingdom when HE reiagn as KING. WE are not living in HIS kingdome today. We are still in grace. today whether killing is a murder is in deed up to the courts as it was in Jesus's day. they let a murdere go by the peoples choice that day and Jesus christ was cruxified instead.. do any of you read the bible? WE our courts which in america is THE people have decided abortion is not killing or illegal. it couldnt get any easier to understand. Gods enemy is death itself the author of death is Satan. Satan has free reign today people have free will to follow who they chose, it is a CHOICE. does that answer your question for the thousand times? sometimes i wonder if any of you even know the bible at all. If God would deal with us without the GRACE Jesus bought with his life we would all be dead for the sin that is in the world and guess what we still die!!!!! but not forever if we believe Jesus is LORD and God raised him from the dead. God has to honor the first Adams contract to hand authority over to Satan. we are killed, murdered... whatever that is why we have a LORD , and a future kingdom. our choices today dictate how we live. for now and forever in the kingdom. this has been Gods manner since he created us. The idea of life and death and what is going to live and what is NOT is bigger than a preganate woman you know.. you know it includes my life as well and yours. If you refuse to make Jesus Christ LORD today and BELIEVE what God has promised in His bible , concerning life and death , you will be aborted and just live out your days here and rot. there is a manner to live forever, and it is a Choice ALL must make , as an indivual. God is very consistent in His promises and rules and legality of all of it. God does not fight or strive to hurt His people in any manner He is LOVE he loves us , he wants us to chose HIM. But we ahve our own thoughts and political systems and manner of doing things and this is why we need to know Jesus as LORD , who lived here who is a man who has seen the promise of God fullfilled who will indeed help us and rescue us from the tricks and trails we get into while satan has a say so for now. it is such a beautiful life isnt it?

We obey God rather then men? well many many many accounts of people dying in the name of obeying God. Jesus Christ being the main one of course. If i chose to obey God it is better, and they sat in a jail cell for it! God did indeed deliver Paul many times so he could full fill His minstry, that was Pauls entire point so he could further the gospel not that he3 was not going to die. circumstance varied and the deliverence varied and sometimes he didnt deliver, the largest being Jesus from death which was His punishment by mans of the people and law of the time. Vpw never taught Romans 13 was civil law Oak, so your totaly wrong in your assumptions on that. he believed the higher powers were not mans law but something different all together . Read in "order my steps in the word" the red book the last one written by him before his death for his thoughts on what Romans 13 means,it is indeed quite a spin and indeed quite full of error. John S. has done a very very comphrehensive study of romans 13, look up civil law and Romans 13 on their web-site in Spirit and Truth Fellowship and see if that can educate youself better. and yes it is full of bible verses.

What does Jesus say? He says forgive the for they know not what they do. He says to forgive, he says none of Gods people are condemed , praise a mighty God. Jesus did ask us to love one another He COMMNADED IT! In the kingdom some may have some misery realizing we ALLL will have a life to live together. with our personality , and OH NO!!! past sins and future sins. hopefully we will learn how to have the King reign in a much more peaceful place and be able to truly love as He loves us. i will say this about the off shoot they are defending the obligation to share the good news of the gospel to the best of their ability. God honors that and people are recieving eternal life because of their efforts!!! do they sin ? have they sinned ? will they sin again? yes we all have will and do. and guess what we are often wrong in how we think and do life. That is why we needed a SAviour. At the end of the day i know God will honor those who attempted to help others worship HIM , more than those who taught hate and bitterness.

killing is quite common in the bible. now we can ask really is kiling wrong? it is Sin to be sure. It is an enemy. But it is also what has alot of authority today given to by the first adam . God is not the ruler of this age, so killing is the name of the game , God not legaly upsurp what man gave satan. is death wrong? yes. huge yes. but it is what happens in sin. that is why God has the whole bible written to help us in our adventurous way out of these circumstances.. such as Fornication and adultry being wrong, and sin against God and the many chapters on the sexual rules and regulations importance of a marriage being Godly etc. untill the enemy death is destroyed, the legal territory belongs to death. as far as whether abortion is illegal well it clearly says to leave such matters up to the courts and we decide the punishment(or not) in crimes comminted to one another. at this point our lawsin America do not consider abortion illegal . Death is wrong, abortion or killing or crimes is up to the people to decide, (well in this nation anywyas not all some have kings etc.), and we are ordered in Romans 13 to obey the law of the the authoriities we put into place. God will work with His people to find the best blessing they can have in life, obedience help a great deal in the avoidance of sin but He canl not upsurp the "legal" authority given to satan capable of death. that is why it is the battle a spiritual battle for the people to follow one or the other. but it is played out in a real world not some fantasy story, we have decided abortion is legal in our courts so it is not a crime so it is not considered a killing in the sense of punishment. We also decide we can go into other countries and abolish whole towns and cities and consider the soldiers hero's and our protection, that is also not considered illegal or a killing capable of any punishment. We have lots of laws and structures tha ok a killing, cops , self defense , food . The death penalty is endorsed by God, and what is crime against one another is up to the people to decide by the authority first adam gave then in Romans 13 we put into place. you know we do not out law death we can not. YET . death is Gods enemy. as far as how we deal with tresspasses and issues ijnvoling dealing with all that this contest means in our life God has always given us much freedom and free will choices for our own selves. because He loves us.

He must have had some HUGE lights to cast those shadows!!!! it is pictures like this that make me feel like i have never really lived. what an adventure huh?

I do not understand

It is normal to think that individuals are responsible for their own choices and behaviours. I do not see how twi would be responsible it is still adults making their own choices in life. Abortion is a medical procedure it is done by licensed professionals by consenting adults. Distress pressure or manipulation has little to do with who is responsible for adult choices . the old he made me do it excuse doesnt fly as far as some would like. God gives us an exmple to have as a standard of how we are to love one another in His Son Jesus christ who laid down His life for us all. if some one says to me shoot this guy or I will shoot you it is my choice.. i either shoot the guy and force another to become a victim or allow myself to die and become a victim the choice is in our own hands.

maybe we notice more. we know some of the names or the people we want to know how or what they are doing. We would notice something that is part of our past easy right? we have feelings sometimes rather strong about the ordeal we lived in , so the offshoots and what they are doing is easy on the eye for us. no one cares what is going on in the popes life. ha no offense met but ya know what I mean? like whe an ambulance goes by ya kinda look ..

I put flea treatment on my cats. i think it worked do ya think they will arrest me? death is not neccesarily murder or killing. it is death and a whole another ball of wax. It is the enemy of God. His creation is not. God has not breath or "soul" . how he deals with circumstances is as big as this book and life its self. God is love and God is righteous. God deals with what He is which is a HOLY Spirit . Jesu christ has a victory over death , to be played out in the final round and in the kingdom. Untill then sin will reign and that includes death. just because something dies doesnt mean it is murdered or any crime has been comminted.

Romans 10, 11-13. is one Jesus knew the comforter would come before he died Luke 24:49 the Father had promised, he knew he needed to be killed as well. He was the sacrafice for mans sins. it was not given untill pentecost tho. (in birth) jesus needed to be glorified by the Father. Acts 11:4 tells of when Peter was given the revelation for the gentiles. 1 corinthians chapter 2: verse 7-9 says what she was explaining to you that the "princes of this world" would not have crucified the Lord.

I agree T-bone. I think God is trying to help the people who have been held captive for many years in a god less environemnt how to properly have a community that will work within his scope of loving one another and HIM. Romans 13 covers the authority of our civil govt and our attitude towards such.

twisted again ww I said the bible is crazy which means to say full of wild and crazy accounts or happenings meaning in the sense of entertaining and funny and many such adverbs can apply. I was refuting YOUR IMPLICATION with this as an example WW reread the thread and stop trying to make it different than what it is. You IMPLIED one verse applies to all situations in the bible and I gave you this as a example of how that is not true at all. T-bone oh for Gods sake read the first line of the VERY verse. lol WW says it is all about Doctrine! read it and weep then . The bible is FULL of statement of how we are to obey the Political situation s and courts of the day T-Bone. In fact that is what the bible is how God rescues His people over and over from the circumstance at large. Do you even read it? Gods people live in communities with real lifes and that is what the bible is about. always have always will. The name of this book is titled What? EXODUS!!!! Gee golly what does that mean?? hmmm it is the account of God delivery His people from the slavery of the time they had gotten into because of the political powers that held them for many years!!!! Gee then we have a few hundred verses about how God dealt with the Rulers and kings and Pharaohs and taskmasters of the day and time to let his people go. God must always deal with the politcal environment of the people. How did they crucify JESUS???? IN the court, the people decided to let a murderer caught in the act to go free and to crucify Jesus Christ. on and on that is what the entire bible is about!

In the very last book of the bible JOHN says the exact same thing that if all that happened with Jesus alone the world would not be large enough to hold the volumes ! indeed. I happen to agree with you Oak abortion was probably happpening then as well. I believe the bible is divine .. and I will take your comment one step further If we run on assumptions the thread could be titled which assumption is correct? I think the fact God says to allow the courts to decide speaks clearly ,he has always been kind to His people and His people have always had to live within the political environment they chose or are enslaved in at the time. which ever the case may be. I find this funny God says DEATH is the ENEMY , an abortion is a death, God considers it an enemy. how can that be anymore clear? Is it sin? hello sin? death is yep we can conclude is sin. Death is wrong. but alas it happens quite alot. Lets out law death ! God has already, but it didnt work becuase people do not obey him hence a Saviour and grace etc. Now abortion He says to leave up to the courts to decide if a wrong is done. and that is only if you ASSUME this is even to be an abortion. It sounds more of a crime and puinshment situation to me. If i slap myself I cause no harm if another slaps me it could be punished, God is dealing with how we are to live in comunity with one another in this chapter clearly.

did ya read the verse? The verse in says to leave it in the courts, not me. Stop twisting words and insulting becuase you cant refute that fact. nO "flat opinon" it is in the DOCTRINE of the verse. read it again and call yourself a liar or full of ignorance I never once said i do not trust the bible . many people think they know what the bible may say which one is correct is the issue, not the bible itself. the bible is a scope of who God is to His people one verse hardly stands alone. this thread doesnt disturb me at all im loving it. If what I write distrub you WW then you can always skip the thread or the entire forum, I often ignore posters who think they have to control and twist what other posters say. I am on topic.

Clearly the records says we are to allow the Courts to decide, did ya read it? no no moral law God clearly states in the bible we are to obey the LAW in our land as all of HIS people have throughout ages. many many records of dealing with the politcal environment of the day and times testify of that FACT! God says we are to obey the laws of the land UNLESS He has clearly placed another above it, and in which case it is sin and sin is not dealt with by God by killing us because of what Jesus has done already . thank you Jesus. and He has not in the case of abortioneven said it is murder . the end of "life" is not neccesarily a killing or murder. In fact it happens on a regular bases everyday. murder is defined in a different manner all together today and in bible times. God saved Noah and many died. ended the life whatever way you want to say it.. clearly many volumes of the example,the two year old babys that died later in this same book DIED. they died because they chose not to obey God. The killer is our enemy satan. Death is the enemy in and of itself by Gods standard, to define whether murderor any crime is involved is decided by the COURTS !! did ya read it|? at this point our courts have decided abortion is NOT illegal in any way. it is no more wrong in Gods eye than if a person dies of old age. God is life that is why He has a plan for us not to worry about death but we are not in that kingdom YET and until we live in a place without an enemy, death is something we must deal with. clearly this verse says let your courts decide how the crimes should be dealt with. this idea of this higher moral law is crap , Jesus is building a community here and now of believers and we decide how we punish one another for crimes. abortion is not a crime in our country. Nor does God address it in these verses. In our country we have at times had a "draft law" which forces all men 18 years and older to go into the service of protection for our country or another, our president can put this law into effect at any time, these soldiers must end the life of other people sometimes whole villages and towns would be bombed and many "innocent people, babies and children and women not considered our enemy at all would die. T-Bone are these men KILLERS or murders? America considers them heros. The many battles in the bible speak of the battles we have over life and death. I do not want to go off topic but verse eye for an eye and many others clearly shows God endorses the death penalty .

the court has decided abortion causes NO harm to anyone at this point. this is NOT in Gods judgement. It is up to the courts to decide how we deal with one another and harm to be done. God is setting a standard on how to address these issues. At this time it is not illegal to have an abortion. If we allow the courts to consider a preganacy a life, then by this standard we could kill a mother that has had a miscarriage!! This is considering a CRIME at this juncture abortion is not a crime. it is a choice not an infliction... If a man does kill an unborn child or both die by our standard today YES they can and have been charged with murder. That is a crime against a mother.. this has not changed since that was written. and YES murder can be charged for the unborn a baby. but the choice of abortion is NOT addressed here. Nor is it consdiered a crime in our "COURTS" which is how it says to determine the issue. The bible doesnt "deem' a preganacy a "life" at all, it in this passage is addressing the issue of a crime "determined by the courts and how to handle them. No where in this scripture does it say God considers a pregnacy "life". i love that slippery word there "deem" . um where exactly hmm? it really doesnt at all. If that type of power was given to a preganacy then all miscarriages would be considered murder . If a mother tooik drugs that harmed a fetus it would be considered a crime and it isnt . this is all about crime and punishment nothing what so ever to do with how God determines what is MURDER or not . for example: I slap my own self across the face ten times, no crime has been done, YOU come to me and slap me one time and you could be punished. just because something dies doesnt mean it was murdered.

I agree with that.. but is the killing a "murder? Lots of killing in the bible was Sanctified by God. (allowed ) We can say the devil kills NOT God but God as a judge in human matters decides if it was a right or wrong killing. In the story of Noah very few were left to "be capable of potentially have fellowship with God for which man was created". they were all KILLED and Yet God determined they were not worth living. many accounts in the bible such as that. As I stated ealier If Mary had decided that she really didnt like the plan and told God NO way LORD IM not doing it do ya think Jesus Christ would have never been born? God is infinitly wiser than relying on people for the Good of His people. Yet we are to grow up in Christ to be adults ect.. and make our own choices in them God blesses our life. the excerp in no way addresses whether God judges an abortion to be wrong or murder.

that is to cute. i likey it. which tank ru in?

my mom does love my sister better. and now when i look at it I think she probably should. My ister tells people what they want to hear, my mom ONLY wants to hear what she wants. It has hurt me BUT now i am a self and well i leave them alone ya know we all do the best we can and should learn to love our own selfs enough to be able to love one another. In my own family one child thinks I like another over her, and in a honest sense I do, she is more honest with me, she doesnt judge or be critical or play games with my head. frankly she isnt a bitch. so either get honest and admit relationships with our family are just that things we work on and try to have be nice , but no one can change another and it can be complicated. i have a son who has done some very "bad: things.... and the polly anna daughter would NEVER but he is honest with me and i trust him... her not so much. it is what it is. Im talking about grown ups now. As kids I think kids are kids and we should be wondrful to them all the same.