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EXACTLY!! finaly some one gets it! thank you lindyhopper ! so now that we get it and get thrown down into the doctrine center anyone do this or been guilty of it? it is a thinking thing . not neccesarily a doctrine thing, but i do suppose many could use the bible as a bullet for their case that is another thread. why was my thread thrown down here where no one wants to read? anyways thx Larry moore for being so very kind , but no . I am a christian and i do not try to use God as a crutch like you describe. like Lindyhopper describes it is a negative thing to me . using God as a comfort is fine with me, but as crutch is like you can not do it it is a negative meaning i would be disabled some how because of God. for example again I have to have ten children abortion is wrong and birth control is evil God says so in the bible. I should take a vow of poverty Jesus never had any money and low paying jobs keep me with the lowly people he hung with.

Well i see alot of spirit in my boy. and he is a good boy. as a man he shouldnt tell me all about his life anyways. thx but no one wants to go to the topic my goodness is it that bad? geez. (unhappy face)

I have learned to never say soemthing about somone if you can not say it to their face, so i hesitate writing this. karen if your reading this i write only so you can learn about some of the stuff that went wrong. she was "teaching" the crowd once honestly i do not remember what about, and some folks had questions , she said"YOU have to ask my husband that". i do not get that at all neither did my daughter we both looked at one another and questioned the maner she was speaking. it was a power play . here she was asking us to listen to her she had the good news and all yet when it came down to answering to or about what she said she called in the "big dog". that is how it felt. she came across as a very weak person unable to stand behind what she said without her hubby to back her up. it was very uncomfortable for single and married folks in the group.

what is accurate? in a simple problem it is easy. most problems are complex and the bible is complex , not to metion the spin and takes people can take. who or what do ya believe ? everyone is an expert.

thank you really me to i cant make good choices , im a sinner, i do not know the bible verses well enough and then when i learned them with PLENTY of classes , the spin on what they REALLY meant started. Good God. and i go to a very fined tuned place of nope not that because the word says.. and it must mean .. it had to be a place where it all revolved around meeting the needs of "God". kepp it simple turned into do not risk anything stay safe with us. THEY are the world. devil spirits live there. When my children grew up and began making life choices i looked at it all over again and said crap maybe God has been a crutch all along ya know? im a believer, i pray i do the program. what i mean is did we use God as an excuse to not risk to not love to not do well in life?

do not be mean on my thread that no one wants to speak on please im already wounded .

lifted I think your right and i have said it from the beginning we all pick and chose who we trust and believe. the girls chose the wrong one in the motor coach. is that wrong or a mistake? i think the latter. martindale wanted a loyalty letter from the corps because he needed to trust who he had to work with. many couldnt cope with that fact. but it is a fact of life. some people live in this place of I DO NOT TRUST PEOPLE jesus never trusted people , but he continued to work and help and love them. but at the end of the day how lonely is the person who can say that? we are not Jesus Christ and he commands we love one another i think it is difficult to love one or help one if we do not trust one another. they often say it is about not trusting people but it isnt it is really about not trusting Jesus to see us through in circumstances and in realtionships. no one is trust worthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not. clearly white dove has said he doesnt agree with cat cups account or testimoiny so trying to convince him other wise if futile.

See ? so you guys do not have to worry one little bit about "staying saved" as JOHNNY put it hell yeah the pfal class took care of that no worries in life at all now man. free sailing!! good freaking class information a real keeper. why in hell would anyone be NOBLE or do the right thing then? hmm it sure as H makes it alot easier to screw up doesnt it? As long as you do not metion it ever again no one ever knows what goes on behind close doors, and that pesky annoying thought of God might have seen or been aware of it is no longer a problem he wont disown you and yep always forgiven. keep on keeping on doing what ya need to do !! a free ride with absolutly no accountability not even to God, HE cant disown you and your always forgiven have at it whatever you want !!! no wonder ya all loved it so much.

how did i lose you? the bible calls all of sinners, we pick and chose what sin we do! some sins can give quite an advantage in life! hell yeah. did you chose to not sin use God or HIS bible study and now claim to be at a disadvantage from those who do not believe as you do? is it stopping you from getting where you want to be? something you lean on because you have the inability to do it on your own because God says so?

Well good for you bro! i started a new thread johniam is already confused . cant write my thoughts well I guess. i wish you would write your thoughts on it . noble you are. maybe a little self righteous, not to hurt your feelings but you know to get the type of power that does convict in life ya need to get along with other right? not live in a vacum of all that noble thought. alone without the people who will give you that power to say so and have the authority to decide? we are a people of the people white dove, and many of us do have those precious fleeting moments of being noble and doing the RIGHT thing and we should take note of them in life. the problem isnt then, bird, it is when they screw up and decide hell yeah this time im going for it and not be so noble and giving and sinless we find so very attractive and telling about their utter soul!! America is people, we all sin , and a great number could give a solid dam about it anymore!! as long as they are not called on the carpet and can bring a few friends those noble types went out when we left the KING back in the old days . so in the tree with the birds sits white dove and your going to change that? one peck at a time? well it is a good thing you have wings to make that fast get away from the rest of humans on the earth who are just trying to get along with one another and make some changes for our better or worse and get that meal ticket to go on vacation some day.

Well they are my brothers and sisters and I do believe they have worked for the good Lord. I never "followed" them. very seldom even spoke to them, i think some of the tapes and books they have are helpful for people who want answers concerning the bible. i wont just dump them in a pile and say well they the folks who wrote these have issues in life and have made some serious bad judgements calls and have hurt people. in my life i have been guilty of the same things, and i love the lord very much.

ok this takes thinking johniam. the question is did you ever NOT do something because of your beliefs? something that others would consider "normal" and growth and positive in life. like my examples cited. sure i have i have compromised alot in life to be a follower of Jesus christ. i could drink to much have crazy sex without a marriage license i could get further ahead in job and career by lying etc. these are fun good things JOHNIAM to those who do not use God as a crutch to not do them.

proof White Dove is relative. the cop said i ran the red light. I KNOW I didnt who wins? looking in the mirror knowing i did the right thing does not pay the fine the judge ordered me to pay. where do you live buddy? in a tree above the rest of reality? crimes are comminted by people often very well versed on how not to get caught, water gate enron , that foot ball guy simpson...NOW THEY HAD MONEY and power. HARD Evidence is NOT BY FAR the only reason people get harrased accussed or EVEN convicted. many times it is hear say or testimony of another who heard something even in a prison cell from another prisoner, hello these are used as EVIDENCE. before dna it was even worse. do you think it is all that black or white really prove it or your innocent? circumstance CONVICTS. in many many areas of life. even you convict the girl m because she went into the motor coach she must be guilty of wanting sex again. REALLY prove that white dove. come on. get real. go hear the thousand of prisoners everyday who scream they are innocent and the whole thing has been a BIG misunderstanding ya know!

o yes i told my son the same thing! i said to him it is better than lying on the floor . lets assume everyone can walk tho. live and do life . did you ever use the God thing as a crutch to NOT do well, to justify something that would not have gone in that manner had you not had the crutch of saying well God's will is. or it is a sin so I cant etc. I see where some christians think they have super powers have abilities beyond what non believers have. (the tool you said) But that only works in a cult where you get to see only what people want you to see and hear about your life . how about real life ?

lol i thought the same thing where is this doreen gal anyway? johnny the drama , doesnt escape you does it now? we each have our own flair for the sensational .

thanks for the reproof there mark. nah im ok it is ok to be sad, and it is ok to be excited about a ministry that does work for the LORD , and approriate to feel sad when they fall into a mess. do ya think this is the first time i saw a mess at the hand of a leader. not it is not. Jesus Christ loved his "leaders" and when they fell asleep in the garden when he had asked them to pray Im sure he felt more than a little disappointed and frightened of what will come of us all. thanks for the link . Mark all along this long strnage trip it has been the LORD and me first most. but to just dismiss the pain and struggle of my brothers and sisters for another handy dandy bible verse or clever sermon is not my style.

I think it is what the way taught us to think. If you say negative your hurting GOD and HIS word!!! they are ambassadors for christ ! it is an ego thing , some in twi lived off the shine others performed, and in life nothing eles mattered in fact many did not have a life other than the doctrine of twi, which was closely linked to its leaders. it was the life blood of many, to tarnish it in any way hurt them on a very personal level, and you know to have that whole it is about God thing tricky slimy added fear into the mix.

I am guilty of this only with my own children, and mostly it was because i thought it was my duty to train them in the way they should go. but for the most part my sermons didnt work , my example did. i think people get stuck and it is about power and control over another. not always but arrogance is involved. some may want another to feel or know the "blessing" of what they know as truth. i think that is rare. mostly it is because we want to belong, to a certain group, to a certain manner of thinking . IN my life i do not witness with words alot i have "stuff in my house that clearly says i love jesus Christ as lord. I live in a manner that suggests i have values , But what other people do is of little matter to me. if they ask i will tell what I think. but i refuse to debate if they have a need to be right I let that happen. no skin off my teeth. down the road i often find i might learn soemthing from them .

Im not real good at this but i will try to see what you think. I raised my children as christians, we did fellowship bible study, prayer and lived in a christian manner. so ok. they are adults now. When my son was in his twenties i thought he drank to much booze, i wanted him to go to college be clean cut etc... He worked a tough job around alot of men and we often disagreed in fact i threw him out of the house over it all. But we still talked and loved one another dearly, then one day he stood up and said "YOU USE GOD AS A CRUTCH". like i accussed him of using alcohol to NOT excel . and it stuck. have you NOT performed in life in a manner you would like because of your christian values or things learned in a cult? didnt go to college because you had to go way corps or wow. had more children because you could teach them the word, or no children so you could stay on staff. wont work within certain populations because they must have devil spirits. Really performed a error or hurt somone and say "I prayed about it God forgave me , lets move on". THIs boy of mine who doesnt believe in the "fairy tale God" i speak of on occasion is the utter love of my life, and has taught me to truly look at how we live life, is entering medical school this fall . (sorry had to gush) . what do you think ? Have you ever USED God as a crutch or to expedient?

ok white dove you like integrity. you believe truth is paramount. cool nice aspirations. one thing is this is an Internet forum hello not a court room most realize that right? ok i am a licensed person by law I must document any incident , i see or have information about. most day care workers medical professional and semi ,the list is endless ,now also have certification or license in which the law states a mandate!!! and the penalty is sever including jail time if they do not report or document each and every ( such is the wording ) suspicion!! so a child come into day care looks sleepy and kind of grumpy does the day care worker say they are up all night at a party? I hear in the break room an employee say in frustration gee i really hate it when so and so does this, do i report it as abuse or neglect? later in the day i notice a bruise on the person she was talking about and incident has to be written, do i metion what sally said in the break room? I have no proof it was just a fleeting conversation right? Well an investigation is done and Sally was found guilty of abuse and I lose my license for not metioning what i heard in the break room, no i did not have anything to do with the incident but i had "information" or suspect and should have written it up. (NO THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IT IS AN EXAMPLE) these types of investigation and incidents happen on a daily level . a prisoner in jail here is filing claims of sexual harrasment on my friend a RN so he can get outside and feel some fresh air while going to court! this is life in America, and due process will take a year in court and thousands of tax payers money. Every bump or cut at the Dr's office HAS to be reported as abuse? NO of course not , we decide people in the position decide what we think. my point is every one is held accountable for their own judgments, their own common sense. i wonder if you use common sense in life or if has to be all black and white line of rigid fear of the unknown . by your standard very few would be protected and many would be put in harms way. the word used suspicion is !not an absolute you know for sure without a doubt actually saw it proof. why is that? clearly it is to open an investigation under any possible hint of trouble or misconduct BEFORE more harm is done. it is to protect people from harm. your standard is out of line with how our laws to protect are enforced, how professional care takers, teachers, medical and emergency people , police are mandated to perform.

Is not a parent responsible for a 17 year old teen? Why was she out there alone on the wow field? the age of adulthood is 18 always has been. sex is 17 , but a parent is always responsible for their children till legal age which is 18, how could she go "out wow" without them? at 17 she could not make medical decisions for herself legaly, she coul not sign any contract "lease for apartment" she was not even responsible forher self finanacialy, a parent still carrys the full load at 17. any decision she meade would have fallen on her parents to support and be responsible for how can twi legaly allow her to go? did your parents sign papers saying they would allow it? the law sure wouldnt.

IN response to white dove I get it man I do as I worked through my own mess trust me i had to do alot of personal work on how and why I made the choices I did. if we are adults I believe we all do that if we are honest and want to understand. But even with bad choices what happened was at the hand of another person and their choice to harm another. that I did not know about. what is your point? to keep the record straight? ok so the word rape is to strong of a word for you, would you consider it consentual sex? two adults and 17 is a legal age to have sex in many states having sex and one with regrets?

and say geez this is really a shame ya know not Gods will at all !!!! I know because my own brother lived through cancer and God wanted him alive and by the way sorry about your son. to bad this happened and all but it isnt God will the devil is nasty and well im sure glad my own brother didnt bite the big one ! blah blah man not so much .

I think white dove believes these girls could have said NO and i also believe they could have said NO. but i do not get what his point is either. is it to blame the girls who had sex because they had sex as well as the man ? so it is BOTH of them that is wrong. ok. does that make it right or something? that does discount the drugs and alcohol and the mog and the power play , the man kind of had an advantage there . no both were wrong. but both were not victims.

great story johnny so what would you say if you got called to do a funeral for the other kid that died from cancer not that story i bet .