shortfuse

Word up on the conditioning. No need to be so overt once people have been trained.

I'm fine with you and VP disappearing as an alternate version.

I hope I'm there at the return too, and when you see VPW, and go into your, "Hi, God bless. How are you?" that the two of you share a warm embrace, and that VP is a little clingier than you expected, and the hug lingers, and just as you are starting to think "this is awkward", right at that moment the two of you line up perfectly and I come up and with one kick drill both of you squarely in the satchel while I shout, "TWO-FER!' That's my heaven. It will smart, but then again, you will be in your new body and recover super quickly so all good.

Yes, I think it's better. A little surprised how many years it is taking me to sort through all this. Congrats to you and your hubby.

Look, I hear you, but you have to understand something. You can't change the past.

Ah, dots connected. I listened to this in '08 which is the year I left twi and the corps. Just listened again. such a cluster.

Would like to hear this story.

Ah, I see. Felt that way about speaking in tongues, interpretation and prophecy.

Maybe the thing to strive for here is to politely challenge trite and cliché sayings, and state plainly what is minimized with euphemism. Example: "I agree that you can't change the past, but you seem to be using that as a way of excusing wrong doing. Do you mean to do that?" I will try to experiment with this more on my own family and see how it goes. Don't worry, I'll report back!

I don't really remember directing any wayfers. Honestly, I remember trying really hard not to. I always felt they gave too much weight to my opinion for the simple reason of a leadership title. Was usually encouraging them to make their own choices and own them. What kind of damage are you talking about? If the Wayfer is the wrecking ball, who is getting wrecked in the analogy? themselves, other wayfers, outsiders?

I've never heard of any success stories. Sorry. My belief is that people have to see it for themselves. It seems that any kind of criticism of the way triggers a defense mechanism that only reinforces way loyalty - I assume the opposite of what you are after. I think there is definitely something to Rocky's point that some dramatic event is often needed to trigger a change in beliefs. For me, I think it was the Allen Lawsuit that jarred me into thinking critically, or more specifically to start valuing my own perspective and stop thinking like a peon. It was however another 8 years before I would eventually leave the way because of the strong compulsion I felt to reform it. I have family still deeply involved in the way and it is a source of frustration and pain for me. I don't know if there is a path to reason with them about it. I haven't seen one. Can you elaborate on what you mean by managing wayfers?

Just threw up a little in my mouth.

That's .... up man. I recently learned from my mom that when someone goes Corps, the devil assigns them a person deceiving spirit whose whole mission is to get them to cop out. That's her explanation of why I left the way, deceiving spirit got to me and I "got tricked". I'm a grown man, and I know she's full of crap, but it still felt like a kick in the satchel.

I hope no one teaches the terrorists about speaking in tongues. Then we're screwed. Also interesting article. My thought is that this kind of sleep deprivation torture seemed dismissible, but the more subtle "sleep is for suckas" could yield similar results over time.

Do you suppose there's some playbook out there? or do cult leaders just instinctively do these things?

I have been reflecting on the cultish aspects of the way recently, and it occurs to me that sleep deprivation really *was* an issue there wasn't it? After the in-residence Corps, I don't recall anyone dictating how long I worked or how little I slept, but I think there was a macho "sleep is for sissies" kind of attitude that was prevalent. "I'll sleep when I'm dead." That sort of thing. Fast forward to present, and many years post-twi I'm dealing with sleep issues,and trying to improve my sleep. I'm blown away by how differently I function on a good night's sleep. It makes sense to me now the value of keeping a group of people chronically tired if you want to influence them moreeasily.

What I like about this: Importance of calling it like it is. It is not helpful to keep white washing what The Way was/is. What I don't like: The video quality. I appreciate what JJ is trying to do, but why does all his content come across so half-assed?

Thanks for Word Wolf for the LMGTFY reply. Sorry for the bad forum etiquette, I certainly could have searched first. Have just been throwing out some ideas lately as they hit my mind. Thanks for the references. They help.

I think both usages of the word were appropriate. But you are right, the first usage was used to dismiss the second.

Anyone ever hear a Wayfer analysis of the Jonestown mass suicide. Curious what the take would be.

I'm starting another thread, related to my last one about the trinity. I am curious about the appeal of the *research* aspect of TWI. For example, I've been reading about the Jesus People Movement, with keen interest in the overlap to VPW. It seems VPW was not all that impressive to the Christian hippies of Haight Ashbury, but the few he was able to coax out to summer school in Ohio came away very impressed by the research. Things like four crucified, Paul's thorn in the flesh, etc. Also, and I don't if I'd call this research, the teaching discerning of spirits. My take away from these accounts is that Vic was trying hard to project an image of a great "man of god" with special insights, and it's this special knowledge that drew in some of these early Jesus People folk. In talking to my own still involved family recently, one of the greatest points of Way Pride for them is still the research aspect of the ministry. Anybody else feel a strong initial draw or compulsion to stay based on the special knowledge TWI was offering?

Good feedback. I think a lot of the unique doctrines were about VPW vaunting himself, and then for the rest of us there was the appeal of being privy to some insider, special knowledge. My feeling is that there are many doctrinal snares, which when believed kept people trapped in TWI. This seems like a big one. Interesting insight. Thank you, Steve.

Hey, Gspotters. Question: Does anyone know when VPW started teaching Jesus Christ is Not God. I know the book was published in 1975. I also know that early on Vic was Trinitarian. Seems to be hints of lingering Trinitarianism in the PFAL class. Curious if anyone knows when that switch took hold. From my POV this is one of the doctrines that keeps people feeling trapped in TWI. So few Unitarian options out there, and this is made to be such a pivotal point, I think it holds people back from leaving.

Thanks, Steve. Those are good thoughts. It is very much how I am thinking of framing it. Also, I should have been more clear, we have specifically been directed to avoid internet sources in favor of scholarly texts.

Well, the conversations here have definitely shaped my perspective of The Way, and also given insights into its history. That said, it's nothing I can site in a Bibliography. Thanks, everyone.