shortfuse

Ouch.

I guess. To me this one is loaded. It says, "Don't trust the counterpoints to my teaching you are going to hear." LCM was always trying to remix these. The Way Class said something like "The only things sincerity is a garauntee for is... sincerity!" Good one, Craiggers. I'll have to think on your question.

I remember this a lot growing up in the way, and it amazes me how much I still hear it among family. "It's like, Dr. Wierwille used to say..." or "It's like Howard Allen, said..." or "It's like we were taught in the Way Corps..." I hear these kind of phrases all the time and I have come to view them as sinister. Every time it is said, to me, it just reinforces the influence of these characters. It also says, "see, they weren't all bad." Of course they weren't *all* bad, but they deserve no further authority or influence in my life. I don't owe that to them. Neither do you.

So, you just sent me back to http://www.theway.org with your comment. I read through some articles. And I was abundantly blessed. Thanks!

Word?

Yeah, I think so. In order for me to teach you the "how", you're going to need to do whatever the foot I tell you.

Ironically I used to have a pair of coffee mugs with the "Benefits of Speaking in Tongues" listed on them. I never used them for coffee, because, you know... Lo Shanda Malaka Seeta

I can appreciate your frustration. For those inside the group, there is scarcely a transgression that can not be over looked when it comes to their perceived value in having "the rightly divided Word" and residing in "the household." They are willing to suffer a lot for the privilege.. Whether the plagiarism (which is in my view a lesser matter) or the adultery, manipulation and abuse committed by Wierwille and his underlings (considerably bigger matters), all of these things remain strangely dismissible. Lurking Wayfers: Ask yourself why this is? Ultimately, I started this thread with one thing in mind. Acknowledging for my own sake, yes, plagiarism was and is a big deal. It was wrong then, and it is still wrong, and I'm sorry, TWI, I can't let you off the hook.

I think the diversion into the Hippie discussion was a response to your description of that generation as being rule followers. I think you and Waysider are actually both right - they were followers and breakers. As for harkening to a time when plagiarism was viewed as more trivial, I've personally never heard a wayfer make this case. It has always been more a matter of minimizing - saying VPW acknowledged he learned from many sources even if he didn't cite properly, the thing that matters is that the message got out - that sort of thing. Now... to go a bit further back in the evangelical Christian culture a young VPW developed in, there definitely was a wide acceptance of the practice of borrowing from others work. In my understanding though, this was more in the context of preaching, where sermons were treated as almost public domain and freely recirculated as desired, and this was deemed harmless. If I am being charitable, I could cite this as a possible origin of VPW's borrowing. However, I think it steps into a bigger transgression when you are talking about published work, making claim to biblical research expertise, and benefiting considerably financially.

Since it is my thread, do I get to bless this diversion? A few months ago, for a school project, I was reading up on the Jesus People Movement. One thing that struck me was how quickly many of them (and not even the folks that later got sucked into TWI) tended towards rigid rule following as they embraced Christianity. Now, I wasn't there, but I share your perception of the hippies being a counter cultural, rule breaking subculture. That said, it seems like the move towards the Hippie Christianity of the JPM was a shift toward conservativism as the "anything goes" ethos of the era reached it's logical end. I think that's why so many hippies were ready for religion. They just wanted it on their own terms. Some of the examples I'm thinking of were around gender roles. Even in the context of communal Christian (proto-Way Home) living, there quickly emerged a rigid Patriarchal, "men are spiritual, women belong in the kitchen" kind of attitude. All of this is to say, that the generation so embracing of freedom also seemed quick to embrace the reassurance of restriction. Wierwille cast himself as the paternal 'Father-in-the-Word" that so many craved.

I think your analogy breaks down here, and maybe that's the point of the "maybe it's not so bad" folks. I would most definitely steal bread save a child's life, especially my own child. Letting the child die is a bigger evil in this case. Yes, stealing is morally wrong, but in the context you gave, I don't care.

Sidebar: This was a fun bit in LCM's class. They were to SIT in session 10, and it was to be done in private with a couple grads. If someone did not SIT it was because they were hard hearted and we were supposed to DROP them from the class before the next session.

Ooh, book idea. Plagiarize the way books whole sale. Just word for word. Instead of crediting VPW or whoever, credit the original authors. I wonder if twi would try to take any legal action, and if so, if it would hold up. I know, a great big, who cares? but the irony appeals to me.

Rocky, I heard the NPR interview with Konnikova and was struck by this "dark triad" observation she makes. I thought at the time how well Wierwille fit the description. I am also curious to read her thoughts about cults as she mentioned this in the interview - former cultists are among the most affected by having been conned. One of the things people tend to do when they have been conned is minimize what was done, or hide it for shame. It seems important for recovery to call these things by their real names. Plagiarism is the only honest way to describe this. Who are we sheltering when we minimize this? If it's Wierwille, who cares? He's been dead for over twenty years. No, we minimize it to shelter ourselves from the pain of acknowledging the con. At least that is one reason. Again, he is long gone. Only the deception lingers. And that is only if we let it.

Came across this in a college class I'm taking now and it reminded me of my own past inclination to minimize Wierwille's plagiarism. http://www.plagiarism.org/plagiarism-101/what-is-plagiarism Yeah it's a real problem. It's fraud. It's lying. It's nothing to build your ministry on. Unless of course you are a fraud. In which case, carry on.

Um...

I tend to think you are both right. I remember reading from VPW's letters to the Corps household (late 70's I think) where he basically invited people to request ordination if they felt so inspired. By the time I was in the Corps (mid-90's) it had become much more opaque. You didn't ask to be ordained, it was an invitation you received at the discretion of the Board of Directors. I agree that the ordination was seen as validating or highlighting the gift ministries of a person.

You and/or your god seem pretty intolerant of questions.

So true.

Dark comedy. Current job title on LinkedIn: "Board of Director", presumably the singular of Board of Directors.

http://johnanthonyrupp.wix.com/website Seems to be looking for a job.

I heard a fun fact yesterday, I don't know if it's confirmable. I heard that the offshoot Christian Family Fellowship is actually bigger than TWI (at least in the USA).

Just listened to an interview with Konnikova over the weekend. She talked about people in cults being some of the con victims who suffered the most loss. VPW sure seems to fit her description of a con. That plus your post, I need to go pick up this book now.

Atheist Joe was one of the less popular PFAL characters, ex-boy friend to Maggie Muggins.

My impression was that some of her micromanaging was directed AT Martindale and was an accountability measure in light of his cheating. It was foisted on the Corps after a few individuals had died - one in a car collision, the other in a work place fall. Craig took up this mantra that we could and should "schedule the adversary out of our lives". Depending on the zeal of the Corps to impart/impose these seem principles on their people. Sounds like Bolshevik got some of the worst of that. dange rolls down hill. Another example of this is the gift policy. We had a whole awkward time there where none of us could receive gifts of any kind. Supposedly all these corps were being bribed by people with seemingly innocuous gestures. There may have been abuses, not really at my level. Craig was far and away the biggest abuser of the "protocol" of gift giving. Hell, in the first draft of the Way of Abundance and Power coordinators guide, there was a whole page of suggested gifts that he as the teacher would enjoy receiving. Not long after that was all shut down, and all the field people got chewed out for accepting bribes. I'm pretty sure looking back that whole thing was about Craig himself.