TheInvisibleDan

Superman (Kal-El, Son of Jor-El) had a weakness with kryptonite. Especially the green stuff, which knocked him for a loop. Did the man/God/God-man Jesus have his own special "Kryptonite"? A deadly chunk of rock from his home world? Which his arch-foe found and used against him? Something else I've been noticing in the evolution of the "Superman" character. Especially as he's depicted alongside other Heroes in the recent episodes of "The Justice League" - his strength seems downgraded -Superman appears "weaker" - being made more "human". In part because "invulnerability" gets boring?

The fact that VPW established a multi-million dollar business and fleeced a many of us here in the process...let's face it, the guy was not a complete dummy. He went quite far with what little he had.

"The Dilemma of Foreign Missions" (?) - one of his earlier works, but I don't know offhand if that was his actual "doctoral" thesis.

I agree it does have a rather distinctive ring to it, like "Captain Kangaroo", "Uncle Festus", or even "Mo Weird".

Certainly he may now be regarded a consummate professional in the art of pushing daisies.

Wow - what a very well done Rant on Cheeseburgers! The McDs looks especially disgusting (lol).

Oh man, what an absolute nutcase. The folks at HQ can't be that much more on the ball. The fact that they're still running this lunatic's "WAP" class and marketing his total nonsense are emphatic indications that with the Way, the lights may be on (though in fewer places), but nobody's home. It's hard to believe they're still running this moron's classes...it speaks volumes about the folks still running the outfit.

Chas, Was that after '87-88? I had left by that time. I recall the last ROA I attended (85?86?) being quite an uninspired dud, as well as my anger at hearing LCM at a Wed. night teaching ranting to all under the "big top" something to the effect, "IF YOU'RE NOT WAY CORP, DON'T EXPECT ME TO WASTE A MINUTE LISTENING TO YOU!!!" Imagine that...that didn't exactly fill me (or any other non-Corp. person who happened to be listening) with the slightest inclination to continue support for this outfit... For awhile I was still on their mailing list. Any doubts I might have had about leaving the old gigantic cult dissipitated quickly upon receiving their infamous homophobe mailings, which contained the hateful ramblings of both LCM and Howard Allen on how homosexuals were infiltrating the ministry and taking over the world and all that. Pretty pathetic stuff. So no, I wasn't subject to the ramblings of LCM's "Joshua" phase, thank God...I suspected things would get worst, but I couldn't have imagined just how bad. Danny

Omigosh JT, I've got to dig out that tape sometime for some cheesey entertainment. I would have loved to have seen "Mystery Science Theater 3000" handle that one. I still remember LCM's performance of "Athletes" in an earlier draft, under the circus tent at a ROA in the early 80s, which featured actors dressed up like doctors and nurses and construction workers and whatever other type of occupation professionals in all walks of life "Kaleidescope Man" might brush against in his neverending quest to rule the world. And that performance even had religious choral music: "We-are-Athletes of the Spi-rit - blah-blah-blah" Anyways, he seemingly did take especial pleasure describing how OT folks, when in face-to-face combat, "cut out the throats of their enemies". He got a lot of mileage out of that old, adaptation of the Mithraic hymn in Ephesians 6... actually he would done better to de-militarize it altogether rather than downgrade the soldier imagery into jocks-for-God. Danny

Thanks, Zix. I was almost hyped to go see it, but then the readers' reviews at Yahoo started pouring in...I think I'll wait for it to come out on video. I agree, the second "Aliens" was the best!

Thanks Shaz! :)-->

Can someone here email me so I can email them a reply to post to John in response to the reply he emails to someone else to post here in response to us? Ouch! ouch, ouch... major brain cramp...

I wonder how he re-wrote and re-enacted Jesus' foot-washing scene? He must have updated it to include a human sacrifice. Like the Aztecs cutting out the hearts of their enemies. With LCM, the "Last Supper" takes on an even more cannibalistic significance.

He's one of the knights who sez "Neat!"

The debate over circumcision was certainly a raw point of contention in the first two centuries of Christianity. It pit brother against brother - the literal, fleshly application verses the allegorical, spiritual circumcision-of-the-heart interpretation. Perhaps it would not be too much to say - it may have been the issue which ultimately separated and even divorced Christianity from Judaism. Paul speaks quite mockingly of those of the "circumcision" party, as might be gathered from parts of "Galatians", "1 Corinthians" and "Philippians". If there was a universal consensus of a true meaning behind circumcision - such would have seemingly eluded the various sides in antiquity. It's an interesting subject. You have your work "cut out" for you. ;)-->

What a tragedy. What did twi possess at one time - 2 or 3 colleges in their pocket? And they did squat with them. They might have really been a contender at one time had they actually been serious about the aim of "biblical research".

Don't know if this qualifies as an a$$-wooping tale...but I think I may have knocked the wind out of LCM "spiritually" back in '81. He was visiting in the Hartford area (at one of those big conference rooms at a hotel). At the meeting, he ranted and raved and carried on for about a half hour against the late John Lennon, calling him a hypocrite for writing a song called "Imagine" and living a wealthy lifestyle, blah, blah, blah... At the conclusion of the meeting, amidst the usual crowd mingling and styrofoam coffee cups, I walked up to LCM and greeted him. Looking upon me, he turned as white as a sheet, and was seemingly mute. I was wearing my round, gold-rimmed "John Lennon" eyeglasses that day, which I guess, along with my long hair, apparently spooked the crap out of him. I'll never forget that bizarre expression on his face, his troubled eyes. He seemed at a loss for words. Imagine that. I still laugh thinking about it. Danny

Wtf Wth, I'm sorry you apparently find this such an unpleasant place to post...

One of the most psychotic depictions of John the Baptist (along with a most Jewish-looking Jesus) that I've ever encountered was in the 1980 film, "The Passover Plot", based on Hugh Schonfield's book. Picked it out of a bargain bin a few years ago. It also features Donald Pleasance as Pontius Pilate, popping grapes in his mouth as he's passing sentence on Jesus. It's a keeper. While on the topic of movies based on particular gospels, has anyone ever seen "The Gospel According to Saint Matthew", a 60s flick by a communist Italian director? It must have been entirely filmed in Italy. It had quite an interesting soundtrack, a mix of classical music and African sounding singers. I think they used local villagers (not professional actors) to play the disciples. Actually, some of them looked rather retarded. It's a very unusual film. Danny

Of course, like any mosquito you're only out looking for blood. So what else is new? --> What-the-Hay: Please, by all means, wear your bug spray. I have no wish draw John Lynn's blood, - merely to engage in a public discourse. Danny

Johniam, You raise an interesting point. I suspect John might have just as many folks swooning over him in loving and protective admiration or agreement, as those of us "mosquitos" who may not concur with his ideas. Bzzzzzz.....I am a mosquito....a mosquito is what I am.... :)--> But I always regarded John to be something of a gifted, master "communicator". He could get up on a stage and play an entire audience with his humor and what not. And considering all the emotional lashings and vomitings and crappings and pillow punchings which seemingly goes on in those "Momentus" group-encounter sessions through which he's undergone and even promoted in the past, why should the public commotion of varying opinions and expressions and debates such as are exchanged in this humble little thread and forum scare off a man of such experience and stature? Danny

I'm so sorry for taking so long to respond. The summer heat and humidity renders me so lazy. I think I need to move to Alaska someday. Satori : "Wouldn't its modest proposal send the CES trio packing off to somebody else's seminary for some actual book learnin'? Can you see those three sharing a freshman dorm room? It could get mighty stuffy in there." Actually, I think they could get by surprisingly well by investing a few hours between visiting public and university libraries, and viewing some of the programs on the "History" channel. With the former, I've had little problem getting hold of a variety of works through interlibrary loan (a Godsend by itself); university and seminary libraries have been extremely gracious. And with the latter, I spent an enjoyable evening earlier this week watching a new show on the Dead Sea scrolls, followed by a program on the subject of "Heaven and Hell". It's just another great way to get exposure to these subjects. "The odds may be better they will form the next great boy-band. For a name, I suggest they call themselves "In-CES'ed." First CD title? "In-sist on In-CES'ed!" Brilliant? No? Awww, man! Well, I give that better odds than their giving your thoughts any creedence." (chuckle) God forbid, not another boy band, especially if they dub themselves "The Cessians" or "The Victors II". Lifted Up : "John Lynn (as he has stated) has seen both good and bad in TWI. This includes the teachings. Does scrutiny, as seems the tone to me here, require rejection? " Sometimes. "Perhaps he HAS scrutinized the teachings and found them to be right, or does scrutiny by someone's definition have to lead to rejection?" Perhaps he has, to the best of his ability...but again, I'm a bit confused here as to how "research" is conducted in CES (let alone what they actually regard themselves to actually be - a church for disenfranchised ex-ways - a biblical research group?) - is it endeavored in the noble spirit of open inquiry, - to let the chips fall where evidence may lead - or is everything done more to simply pad up that which they have already determined beforehand as the "right" doctrines and interpretations? For instance, we might consider the past affairs in twi 's "research" department - from what I've heard of the experiences of former researchers at Waydale and GS, Wierwille's afore-drawn conclusions in PFAL were largely held up as sacred cows, with very little "new light" which might challenge or change prior conceptions shining out. With the result that those researchers who followed their conscience and spoke up were either fired, cast out, or they left out of disgust or boredom. I recall hearing often the notion that with the basic principles of PFAL, there was little need to "re-invent the wheel". This was seemingly used as justification for not re-investigating a lot of things. But what if the "wheel" that Wierwille constructed has only so much mileage? What if one could only go so far riding a vehicle mounted with Wierwille's wheels, or a competitor's retread? Might the Way and subsequent imitators have overlooked or ignored a whole array of other "research tools" and resources? The discoveries of the past century in the field of Biblical literature -e.g., the Dead Sea scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library - would have blown Bullinger's mind, who unfortunately never lived to see these discoveries. I can't even begin to imagine how much our understanding in this field will expand 100 years from now. Def59 : "Beautiful letter Dan. I agree with you that CES and the other offshoots need to really look at their doctrines from other points of view. Their bias is pretty evident, especially since they still seek the approval of vpw. Good biblical study will allow for differing of opinions and let other ideas come in. " Thank you Def59. I agree with you - it's healthy and rewarding to maintain an open mind, and consider other ideas besides (or alongside) those in which may have been raised. It can be challenging and even extremely difficult - but I think one can emerge much stronger from doing so. One may even reach a place where they have even more questions than when they started out; but I have taken even more pleasure in this. Oldiesman: "Some have done this, but I think JAL and CES and others don't want to stray from the teachings they espouse, because they believe them to be the truth. Why hold CES and JAL to a higher standard and burden to change their beliefs, than all the other religions out there? Those who want CES and JAL to change -- if it's so simple, why don't YOU change YOUR minds?" Well again, while in the Way, a number of researchers were not allowed to really "stray" from the sacred cows of Wierwille's doctrines and interpretations. So I find it all the more puzzling why some of those "most reputed" who have moved on to establish their offshoots, being no longer under the thumb of the Way organizational system, apparently still feel compelled to continue using the "wheel" manufactured through Way Tires, Inc. CES and others can and should do as they please. I'm not so unrealistic as to expect they would change due to anything on my account. It's their show. Perhaps it's still in development. But now with all these former Way leaders and researchers striking it out on their own, I would have expected (again unrealistically perhaps?) more ambitious "research" coming from them, in that spirit of open inquiry previously denied them (and others) in the old group. After all, at one time the Way touted itself as being at the top of the world of cutting edge research. So yes, I and others can, and do go elsewhere. And along the way we express our opinions. Sky4it: "Wouldnt it be nice to just put doctrines all under the "Yeah so what?" Category For example, I heard John Hagee on TV one day arguing the necessity of believing in the rapture. Whatever. I always simply think, Well if it happens I'm going and if it don't I'm staying, either way it will be no surprise." The UU church that my wife attends has an approach similar to what you've suggested. I like dropping in on them every so often. They seem very tolerant and laid back. They may not agree on doctrines and ideas - but I admire how they come together to do things to help folks in their local communities. A far cry from "I have no friends when it comes to the Word". "With respect to my own dreams, I to am a peon whose opinions have little signifacance. Certainly at times this has made me question what good I am doing. Like , know one cares, it makes no difference so why should I? The only problem with that is then I can never make good of the troublesome experiences I have left behind. Thats why the TWI experience is meaningful to me, I think God can use it to sharpen up that thing we called the word of God. " I agree, I think one may draw some invaluable, most effective contrasts from even our previous "bad" experiences and ideas. I recall folks in the Way doing it with their prior religious upbringing (i.e., "I was once a Roman Catholic and it really sucked" and so on). Little did many realize at the time that the ideas and experiences of the Way would one day serve as antithetical showpieces. TheEvan : " Where do I enlist in the Invisible Dan's Official Religion?" Three "Hail Marys" accompanied by a viewing of MST3k's lambasting of the 70s classic "PumaMan". You'll be so blessed that you did. :)--> Danny

I recall seeing infomercials advertising this film a few months ago. It's an interesting idea - an film based entirely on the material in the Gospel of John. I wonder how they depicted the prologue ("In the beginning was the Logos...")? Danny

Thank you for your very kind words, Sky4it. You deepen my ongoing impression all the more that the best part of twi experience wasn't the doctrines at all, but the people (despite all the bad eggs). John and his associates have a lot of ears inclined toward them, more than perhaps I will ever have in this life. But it would good to see them utilize their positions toward promoting a higher, progressive goal. Perhaps I drink too much of my own home-brewed "Kool-Aid", or watch too many "Outer Limits" episodes. But it's still nice to dream. :)--> Danny

I feel inspired to attempt a cordial albeit public "Dear John" greeting: Greetings John Lynn; First off, I must commend you and many of your associate castaways (Ralph D., Sue P., J.S, etc.) during the internet-less age of 86-87 for going public with the Way scandals and dirt at the time. Going public and spreading the info which exposed the Way, demonstrating that it was not the chosen, infallable, one-true-church-of-God-on-earth, proving very liberating for many at the time. It was a much-need catalyst that provided many with the justification and even courage for not remaining in slavery to a corrupt organization, its leaders and its teachings (though unfortunately the latter appears to be a much slower process, in my humble observation). I will always be grateful to you and others for the part you all played back then for bringing about this little "revolution". This appreciation will never be lost to me, even if we should presently disagree on every single thing. I only wish that you and your associates had continued your "revolution" for truly, complete independence - not only from an organization and its leadership structure- but liberation from the shackles of its teachings. You did well with pointing out the harm done by the Way's "law of believing" (which effectively filled a role of an OT law for twi). But as I wrote to you a couple years ago, the CES teachings of recent have only strcuk me as "re-hashed" Way teachings. I stated such not be harsh or hyper-critical but to be forthright and honest. It is my opinion, from my observation, that the infallible, inherent perfect Bible "Word-of-God" dogma and ancient propaganda has effected almost immeasurable harm to a genuine Spirit of Christian liberty (in both orthodox and un-orthodox religious circles alike) and (to cite a Bush-ism) has been grossly misunderestimated. Such a form of Biblatry, more often than not, can be quite stifling. It compels otherwise honest "researchers" to stick their heads in the sand to over 200 years worth of textual critical studies - the same type of studies Wierwille hauled off to the dump, as he once claimed. He obviously didn't appreciate their value, and was too lazy-minded to incorporate (rather than ignore, hide, or burn) the findings of modern scholars into a more mature theology aimed for nourishing the thoughts of spirits living in today's world, without sacrificing the facts of history and textual-criticism. I've often wondered if one of the reasons for why many of the CES teachings don't appear to me to have advanced beyond a reverberation of Way doctrines is that the folks of CES have neither had the time to truly cross-examine the old stuff, nor the urge to explore other studies, perhaps because you were serving as something of a "half-Way" house for those still leaving the Way. Perhaps you are filling a role here in this regard. A stepping stone for those still leaving. But I feel that independence from twi will not truly be complete until all the former teachings have been scrutinized, rather than duplicated in some way. And that you have allowed yourselves and those around you - encouraging the same openness in others - the complete liberty and fearlessness to explore and to present other theologies. Or in other words, to actually bring to realization the model of a "Biblical research ministry" to which the Way only rendered lip-service. And btw, are the doctrines of CES (or whatever it's called now) only restricted to the conclusions of three? And must one always be inclined to choose one doctrine over another (why not present both perspectives, unitarian and trinitarian, without preference to either?) I guess what I'm trying to express is this: your organization can be something more than a mere sanctuary for Wierwille's wandering ghost. Now with the presence of GS and other ex-way forums on the internet to fill a vital role CES once did, cast out the old fithy Wierwille phantom of teachings! Perhaps you might even pick up some invaluable "universalist" tips from your UU neighbors. And please, please, please return to the open "DIALOGUE" your organization once exemplified, rather than continuing to engrave your teachings upon the stones of a "CONTENDER". I hope you consider my suggestions. I wish you well. Danny