TheInvisibleDan

(lol) Perhaps a 15 minute teaching on the difference between a "manifestation" and a "gift". And then, "the end".

Sir Guess, I enjoyed much of what you expressed earlier. Yet I feel compelled to second Laleo's observation in certain respects. Perhaps the indignity only second to wearing a name tag is the indignity of people being judged or depicted or labeled en masse. And as history has shown, terrible things have come out from such thinking, especially when, God forbid, it should catch on en masse. But I don't think that's where you were coming from, mainly, in consideration of other lofty, admirable ideas you expressed. I think your mistake was one of clarification in regard to "this Christianity of the land" and "the Christian masses" (it's an easy thing to do in writing - I've made the same mistake before, and probably will do so before the end of this post - lol). But in the end, regardless of the group, doctrine, movement, or even religion, quite a few of us are (I hope) concerned with individuals. There are jerks in all these groups, and there are fine people. It's probably true of any religion and spiritual movement. Perhaps if you had stated, "a few Christians" or even "quite a few Christians of the land," the objections would not have arisen, and would have truer to the Spirit of what you were trying to express. None of us here can really speak for all Christians or Christianity or Christianities, or for all Buddhists, or for all Jews and Judaisms, and so forth. There are most certainly shameful,dark episodes throughout Christian history, of humanity's inhumanity to humanity. And certainly there are widespread beliefs and approaches with which I don't agree, which in my opinion, could even be ultimately more harmful than good. But good-hearted, spiritual people do prevail and shine through all of it. Like Mother Theresa. Or Martin Luther King. Or Ghandi. And I'm confident new friends we've yet to meet. On the other side of the coin, it does seem that "quite a few" Christians like to knock the "new age" thing. Or so, one might gain this impression when thumbing through Christian bookstore catalogues. Which I think is unfortunate. I think the new age movement is a healthy one, because throughout people are seemingly exploring, searching many different paths of spirituality. I would think or at least hope many Christians would see the "new age" movement more as an opportunity to join into the mix to "invoke the Good Spell," rather than getting all paranoid and conspiratorial and judgmental and stuff, at least along the lines of the books I saw advertised. Hopefully the subscribers are more sophisticated than these authors - I suspect they are. But I'll see how I feel after November (lol). Danny

Thank you Laleo for the most enjoyable link to "Sound and Spirit". I was also very delighted to recently find the NPR playlist for my area, to find out the title to a classical piece I heard on the radio one evening. Occassionally an announcer rattles off the name of a composer whose name oft times is not spelled as I might have imagined. Danny

Abigail, Very interesting stuff on Enoch. I came across an excellent website the other evening that features two online translations of "I Enoch" and other Enoch literature, as well as some decent background info: http://www.reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm There's also a translation of "The Book of Jubilees" at the same website: http://reluctant-messenger.com/book_jubilees.htm Danny

Thank you Sky4it. Danny

Cynicism tends to be viewed almost entirely negative in our society. Personally, even with the current perception of cynicism, given the present state of affairs in this country, I'm under the impression that there hasn't been enough of it. Perhaps it is not widely known that Jesus Himself is also regarded something of a "cynic sage". From http://www.i-cynic.com/fame.asp

That an angel-mediator is required to communicate with John Lynn on a public forum (?) -->

...thread...dy-ing!....think-ing...hurts!...must...keep ...mov-ing....on! (((flop!!!))) :)-->

I see Jonah, Pinnochio and an old toy maker sitting around a candle-lit wooden table inside a whale's belly. That does it. It's time for me to log off Danny

Did Paul forget his own "scriptures" as well? He devotes an awful lot of space to griping about his opponents throughout letters ascribed to him (i.e., Galatians, 2 Corinthians). And against other "Christians", other "apostles". Danny

I missed your previous comment - but taking that statement alone -I must cordially disagree, with "not always". Certain of what Wierwille taught was quite self-serving, and quite deliberated by the directive of his character, and can hardly be considered "independent" of it. Like his "pro-choice" position on "abortion" (as it appeared in an old Way mag), for which of course there was especial allowance given that "every women in the kingdom belonged to the king" and his pathetic jokers. Danny

Yes, you posted this question different earlier. Anyways, my reply. Reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode (lol), the one starring Burgess Meredith, a librarian being persecuted by the state and judged "Oooob-So-LETE". "Give us this day our daily bread"? Yes, I'm well aware of the numerous passages in Paul's letters that would suggest that we've been given all things in Christ, both present and future. Beyond what one may ask or even think, and so on. But how does this render "Ob-so-LETE!" sending up a "cosmic order" every so often to our Deity in heaven? Just because I request something (even if assumed I already own it) doesn't mean I'll get it 2nd day delivery. And if it happened to be "daily bread", well, I might really become disappointed, though it probably wouldn't hurt me to lose a few pounds. Anyways, I don't see such a wide chasm between the Lord's Prayer and the ideas in Paul. Certainly nothing that would render points of the Lord's prayer irrevelant or inapplicable to us, as suggested by VPW. VPW was apparently also quite ignorant about the form of parables, an almost unimaginable place to be for one who prided himself in "figures of speech". It's very good that he at least did offer an introduction of the topic, but when it came to handling the most profound form of the "parables", he seems to have either overlooked them, or he didn't appreciate the value of a past century of "research" on this topic of which various scholars have devoted much their lives and energy, and have broken much new ground. The form of the parables of Jesus is pure genius - but poor Wierwille, as he demonstrated through his class, both written and filmed (as well as lacking in later classes and works) remained CLUELESS. It occurred in session 4 (if I recall correctly) through his comedic skit of Maggie Muggins and Johnny Jumpup being asked for their opinions on the meaning of parables, with the ultimate conclusion that "no scripture is of private interpretation". But in using the parables in this example, VP missed their functional significance, namely, that a parable is designed to cause in each individual a unique, personal reaction and interpretation - to jar or shock their minds into active thought, and to think anew (with often one element in a number of parables which go against the grain of its cultural and social context). Nor was VPW evidently aware that the allegorical interpretions appended to a metaphorical form of a parable were later interpolations - somewhat watering down the parables of Christ of their full potency. The Parables of Christ were intended to spark people into thinking for themselves. If you find any of this of interest, I heartily recommend C.H. Dodd's "The Parables of the Kingdom", or J. Jeremias' "The Parables of Jesus"- two very basic and fine works in the area of parable studies. Incredible work. Danny

(lol)Another "nerd" here. I think Way nerds may have even been below "Trekkies" in the food chain... Good posts. Danny

I say, congratulations. I am very happy for you that you have learned from them, unlike Wierwille and his corrupt priests. Is it possible that in the beginning, Wierwille did not anticipate the destructive outcome of his dividing the gospels from the epistles "addressed to us" through what he taught in his class and wrote in his book? Had he realized it before the end of his life, it was evidently and tragically too late. But it's not too late for us. The negative effect and outcome of placing the gospels in a position subordinante - not at the very least, equal - to the Pauline material -was as a flash of revelation to me personally upon leaving the Way back in '87. When all the reports emerged as to the actual deeds and abuses of Wierwille and his priests- the problem is really not difficult to see. Wierwille and his foot washers had not treated others in the manner of exercising respect for one's neighbor as prescribed by Jesus. They had obviously not "learned" from the gospels. (Had they done so, this forum would most likely not be here today, its existence having been unnecessary.) Yes, they put together an impressive looking thesis of Jesus' last days, expressing appreciation for such a one going through that pain and torture and dying and all -but as to the actual sayings of Christ pertaining to his new laws for the heart - they ultimately carried little weight and because they were the "Old Testament" and had to little "practical" relevance for "us". This is not at all how Christians handled the sayings of Jesus alongside the epistles at the open of the second century. The sayings of Christ were regarded the very "New Commandments"! - the new law which replaces/fulfils/abolishes(take-your-pick) "the Old". Danny

Thanks, but for what it's worth I already have a hard copy of "PFAL"...there's little therein to actually "come back to" - for example, why would I want to "come back" to disregarding the ethical sayings of Jesus in the four gospels, as part of the OT and therefore not "addressed" to us - so one could become as Christless and godless and blind and hard-hearted to one's own abusive and destructive thinking and behavior, just as Wierwille became? Shifting the blame to his subsequent imitators and followers for all the evil that's occurred in the Way is not going to make Wierwille's erroneous, written doctrines resolve themselves or go away. And putting a fresh coat of paint on them is not going fix anything either. In the end you only end up deluding yourself, IMHO. Danny

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, which describes precisely how Wierwille's erroneous doctrines led to his group splintering and falling apart.

Well I guess that does it for them. Tsk, tsk, CES ( And I tried giving you the benefit of the evil doubt.) But with next to no imagination, they could whip up their own "Alpha-Omega" logo using the Windows "Paintbrush" program and the "Symbol" font. Or they could contact me if they want an original design from my own hand. Make a generous offer to me, CES. My hidden Jew living within is open for business. ;)--> Danny P.S. My apologies. That was kind of tacky. I was in a "tackless" mood when I wrote that. Oh well...

Good point, dmiller. And some early Christian canons didn't even include "Revelation". Danny

The only problem with the aforementioned brick house was that it was apparently in the migratory path of thousands of crawling millipedes. Unfortunately I did not always exercise the peaceful way in dealing with these benign albeit slimy creatures which literally covered almost every inch of my front door each evening. I must have gone through an entire can of "Raid" in two nights...with each morning spent sweeping up piles of their curled-up millipede corpses. There must have been much weeping and gnashing throughout the millipede kingdom at that time... I guess I'll never become a member of the "Jane gang" anytime soon, you know, those Indians who covered their mouths for fear of accidently breathing in bugs... Danny

The first house my wife and I rented after we got married was an unusual brick house which included (at the end of the doorway hall) a stone Buddha statue, set upon its alter beneath a small skylight. That was a cool statue. In the morning the natural sunlight would beam down on it, and in times of the full moon with an especial ethereal glow. I didn't become a Buddhist back then but I liked that statue. Danny

Jeesh, that's kind of icky. I'm imagining him wearing a t-shirt reading "I want to be your friend". Sometimes when telemarketers get on the horn, the phone becomes a leech threatening to suck one's brains out through their ear. Like the telemarketer who called me up a couple times each month trying to sell me a septic tank - despite the fact that my home is already hooked up to a main sewer. Danny

Might the basic A&O template had originally come from a commercial Christian clipart and artwork cd (the type designed for ministers and pastors to use for putting together their newsletters and websites)?

Really -what is the difference between "mistakes" and "sins"? (I've often been tempted to use "mistakes" in place of "sins" with experimental translations.) Is the line of distinction mainly between an (mis-)action intended or unintended?

I just came across some information about a book on "trickster mythology". It looks like a very interesting read - has anyone here read it? From http://www.forteantimes.com/articles/175_trickster1.shtml On the Trail of the Trickster: an interview with George P Hansen by Mark Pilkington Books about fortean phenomena tend either to examine the study from the cold, dispassionate distance of the sociologist, or from the blinkered, tunnel-visioned insider’s perspective of the believer or sceptic. It’s rare for an author to take the position of what we could call Schr?ger’s Fortean, in which one can study the field simultaneously from within and without, thus gaining an intimate understanding of the unusual, often bizarre dynamics of our chosen arena while also being aware of its relationship to the wider culture. In his book The Trickster and the Paranormal, George Hansen manages to do this admirably, and with enough gusto and enthusiasm to carry the reader through 400 pages that encompass trickster mythology, all manner of paranormal phenomena and their attendant personalities, sociology, anthropology, folklore, semiotics, even literary theory. It’s a bumpy, disorientating ride at times, and Hansen’s conclusions remain open to multiple interpretations, all of them sure to be as refreshing and controversial to the hard-nosed skeptic as they are to the literalist believer. Naturally it’s an essential read for the serious fortean, and one that could just revolutionise the way you think about the phenomena that so fascinate us. http://www.tricksterbook.com/ from the link "Sociology": Max Weber on Charisma Charisma is central to Max Weber’s theories of authority, power, and domination. He clearly explained that pure charisma required the working of miracles, and he specifically mentioned prophecy, telepathy, and weather control as manifestations of pure charisma. Weber’s concepts of rationalization, disenchantment, and bureaucratization are well known. They entail the attenuation and routinization of charisma. As cultures become more rationalized, miracles and magic (i.e., overt control of paranormal and supernatural powers) are suppressed. A variety of institutions are agents for rationalization and disenchantment. Academe is such a force, as are most exoteric religions. Magic and miracles are never fully eliminated from the world, rather they are expelled from the conscious awareness of cultural elites. They view them as fiction. Indeed, large industries portray the paranormal in and as fiction. In financial terms, these industries dwarf those that attempt to apply psychic powers. Weber’s theory of charisma was integrated with his ideas on authority. Pure charisma is the primordial source of authority, but bureaucracy is inimical to pure charisma. Consequently, those who directly attempt to apply psychic powers almost always do so outside the purview of large bureaucratic institutions. The trickster is a figure of marginality and of transition. Typically the paranormal is marginalized by establishment elites, but in times of cultural transition, it becomes more publicly prominent. Likewise, charismatic leaders attain greater visibility in times of significant transition.

Please take good care of yourself Roy. We all go through our ups and downs in life. My thoughts are with you. Danny