TheInvisibleDan

the phrase "spiritual adultery" strikes me as rather forced, - even moronic, the more I consider it. As if another way one might also express "idolatry" -as "spiritual idolatry", "murder" as "spiritual murder," "stealing" as "spiritual stealing" and so on. Which becomes all the more confusing in view of the Pauline notion that primarily, all sins and vices arise from or through the flesh. many religious perspectives share the common idea that one's every breath and action in life is in some respect inter-related to "spirit" or a "spiritual dimension". The term and even the idea of "Spiritual adultery" mixes together like oil and water, now that I think about it. Danny

Sky - I believe you, Sky. I didn't suppose that it was actually your intent - whereas my own thinking was to simply weigh and address the idea itself,- for its strengths and weaknesses -not the person who presented it. I hadn't realize this attitude was widepread in churches. Perhaps you have had more contact and experiences with churches than I have had in recent years, and you have witnessed a lot more in this regard. I haven't really been a steady church-goer for quite some time now. Sky, I'm really sorry to hear of the painful trials you and your wife are undergoing, and I bear to heart that things may work out to the most beneficial outcome for both you and your wife. Please don't hesitate to email me if I can be of any help, even if only to lend an ear. with warmest regards, Danny

It is a peculiar passage, among many here. I wonder if through this Paul also slipped to readers an indication of his own marital situation. What do we really know about Paul in this regard? Was he married (being a requirement for a pharisee - or so I've heard)? - divorced? - a widower? - or had he "separated" from his wife? Perhaps when he became a Christian, he took the gospel literally and left behind his wife (and other members of his family). Not to overlook that they may not have responded favorably with what he had gotten into. But no matter, because he in turn accounted his former life with all its achievements and relations as "dung" for the glory of Christ (Philip.4). Paul equates marriage with "the world" -(1 Cor. 7:32-33): "he that is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord...he that is married cares for the things of the world..." Not exactly a ringing endorsement for marriage. To Paul, the Church was "the Bride" -a "Virgin" for which many Christians devoted their bodies and souls to the practice of celibacy to help guard Her as pure and spotless for the Groom. Danny

You don't mean to suggest that anyone here is under any such illusion? At least I hadn't picked this up from this thread so far. I'm far from perfect, and am even in less of a position to judge what life must be like - or what it was like - in someone elses marriage. My concern for such an approach you described - for all its merits, and there are indeed many -is that, of itself, I can see where such might also slip into some weird, machostic holier-than-thou brand of self-righteousness, - particularly if one regards others whose marriages didn't work -as somehow forever stained and less sacred, or possessing less "spiritual depth" and perception. Which is not to suggest that I think that's where you're coming from. Only that this position may not be without its shortcomings. I'm very sorry to hear about this situation with your wife. Addiction to prescription drugs seems increasingly commonplace. Especially with couples getting older. I saw such happening with my father through the remaining 20 years of his life. My mother hung in there with him, even as he was losing his memories. They were married for over 50 years. Indeed, marriage is no bed of roses.

This subject raises questions in my mind as to the actual state of marriages in the time of Christ, in contrast to how marriages (at least in our country) are today. Another thread is interestingly enough discussing "Arranged Marriages." If anyone knows and can recommend any works which can raise our understanding about marriage in antiquity, that could certainly enrich our discussion. If I understand correctly , marriage in antiquity in that culture was akin to ownership of another person - usually the man's ownership of a woman (a man could have a collection of wives - an entire harem) - marriage was exercised more as an ownership and less a mutual partnership. I can see how Jesus' words pertaining to divorce must have done much to empower a woman - He was apparently familiar with a number of women who got ditched by their previous owner/husbands for no good reason. Discarded out of their homes where they had lived their entire lives since their youth, cast out of the only world they 'd ever known, and most likely with accompanying social disrepute. And many former wives perhaps had little recourse but to turn to prostitution and other "disrespectful" professions in order to survive in the outside world. With all this going on around Him, maybe this led Jesus to arrive to the views that He did. And I wonder what Jesus' views would be today if He lived in our society - where in large part, women have attained (and hopefully will continue to ) equality, and therefore more say and choices in determining their own lives and future, outside of the common practice of pre-arrangement and marriage-as-slavery. Personally, as a creature of my time, I can see other possible, valid reasons besides "adultery" that might justify annulling a marriage. Spouse beaters and abusers. Or two people growing apart and sharing little in common anymore. I'm sure people here can think of other reasons. And perhaps even for reasons unrelated to "hard hearts". Danny

I think back in the daze hearing quite a few praying quite impressively - as if possessing the super-power of x-ray vision - for weakened white blood cell corpuscles. There was apparently quite an epidemic. Was I dreaming, - or did anyone else here happen to hear this prayer, once or twice or more throughout their cultic career? Danny

{{{Excy & Tom }}} your cuddly lovebombs, hugging me like a warm blanket on a cold winter evening. After spending the last hour raising my wife's stuck car & front car wheel out of an icy pot-hole in a neighbors driveway, crawling on the mud & ice around the car with a tire jack and wood logs. And no I didn't "reprove" her. :)--> All we could do was laugh. Danny

The Pastoral Epistles of 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus - upon which the Way based it's "rightly-dividing" theology and resultant Biblatry - and which provided the "rods" with which we beat each other over the heads - are wholly fiction, penned under the pseudonym of "Paul". That is the conclusion to which most NT scholars have arrived for well over the past 100 years. I find it ironic that Wierwille, who gave much lip-service to the idea of "forgeries" in scripture, gave so little attention to the actual scholarship done in this area. And then he proceeded to put many under the weight of this pseudonymous ecclesiastical fiction, which is about as characteristically "Pauline" as my left fake foot. I prefer to recognise the Pastorals for the fiction that they are, and to approach them as such, rather than literally believing them and "applying" them and declaring open season on human beings, as had happened in the Way to such devastating proportions. Danny

Isn't this why a "scientific accuracy and mathmatical exactitude" is a pile of crap when applied to ancient, middle-eastern scripture, or today's paper, and anyone claiming to offer such precision is probably... lying? Or why one can be greatly disappointed upon seeing a film based on a book they've read.

This one?OH WELL - FLEETWOOD MAC The chorus (though it may not be the actual title of the song) - "Tell me lies tell me sweet little lies" Or it's at least the way my mind spins it. :)-->

Whoa, that old Fleetwood Mac song is going through my mind...the world's most intuitive radio/mp3 player is still the brain.

But who among us actually can avoid putting their own "spin" on what they read. Things read become processed one way or another through the different minds. Just my banal spin on things. Terribly banal.

Thank you Sunesis. I imagine her recollections about living in Russia must have been quite fascinating. I'm trying to recall her brother in Connecticut, and whether I had met him or not. I hate to ask this, but when Rochelle died, was there a service & funeral for her? It's absolutely unsettling to me that she died alone, in a hotel room in Columbus. Had anyone close to her visited that hotel room in which she passed away? Thanks. Danny

So who was Rochelle? I must confess as to not knowing anything more about her now than when this thread began 24 pages ago - outside the fact that this poor woman became horribly injured in a tragic accident, and afterward was treated despictably by a supposed Christian group. What was she like? where did she grow up and come from originally? Did she ever share her life dreams and aspirations with anyone here? What did she like to talk about? Thanks.

Tzia's goals have not been "realized" if CES has gone back on their original agreement to allow this person "full editorial control". The good folks at CES apparently lied to this person. Does this sound like the kind of group one would want to support?

HCW - I second Satori's advice: tell your story to a good, "pitbull" lawyer. Danny

(lol) yeah, those would be relatives from my side of the family...Don't forget to slide a little food beneath the door to them every once in awhile. They'd like that. ;)-->

(lol) And apparently not the "Sultans of Swing" - learning chords and an editor could have helped prevent this Arabian-Retarded-Vulcanese disaster. Good post, WTH. Danny

The "J-Man" was surrounded by a circle of women. And the very affluent and wealthy ones at that. Here, Mary Magdalene is not listed among paupers. Most likely, she was no "prostitute" either. And even my own daughter has enough good sense to discern that "out of whom he cast seven devils" appended to Mary in the ortho-versions carries a post-editing sense a later invalidator. They "clave" to Him (Tert.) - or, they constantly encircled Him, surrounded Him. It's a very striking and unusual scene. It's as if these women served as His companion guardians, perhaps even His interpreters. Or, for lack of a better term, His "mediums", who somehow bring about or generate the materialization and manifestation of this Spirit through their powerful circle. I'm only speculating. But it's a provacative scene nonetheless. Danny

Def - Would you mind citing which verse you actually have in mind - that is, if you haven't already burned your copy. :D--> Which would be a shame, because, if it is the last saying, #114 - "...I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males..." - it may also be interpreted in the sense (of course, among many other meanings) that a woman is entitled to the same equality and status as a man. Other verses in Thomas go further and expand on the idea also expressed in Paul (Gal.3) - "neither male nor female" - - or Eph.2 & 5 - "When you make the two into one, and the outer like the inner,...when you make the male and the female into a single one...(Thomas 22). Women tended to enjoy far more "liberation" in the so-called gnostic/heretical movements than in their so-supposed proto-orthodox competitors. Marcion's religiously correct opponents (i.e., Epiphanius) were absolutely appalled by the fact that Marcionite women were ordained and allowed to baptize others. Danny

Bible Xenophobia seems destined to always fail because the ideas inherent in thsoe outlooks owes just as much to banished alien ideas/doctrines/lost movements/lost writings. Those are the crazy grandparents that they've locked in the basement. But one can still hear their heretical howlings beneath the tidy floorboards. They contribute just as much to the foundation of Christianity. Such can be obscured but never entirely eradicated. These lost, foreign ideas are becoming easier to decipher with the emergence and circulation of such writings as the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and others. It's a great time to be living. Danny

Hallelujah, Brother Steve. That was a most gracious post. Thank you. Danny

You have offended the Great Piafael. Woe unto you. :P-->

That's a very good point, SirGuess. The difference between sport and war can be extremely fine, indeed. With over 5 sports channels on my cable, -outnumbering even all the arts & war channels - folks apparently take their sports quite seriously! And sometimes people do die in "competitions," like the local basketball player who dropped dead on the court last week. Danny

Moloch? (for child sacrifice) - Mammon the money-god? The attributes of both absorbed into the Wayshua deity Piafael.