TheInvisibleDan

Greetings - The "doctrine" or "teaching" of Christ would - at least in my view - refer to anything taught by Christ Himself (like those things recorded in the gospels). It's possible that the author also had in mind the "precepts" of Christ mentioned earlier in this same work. The precepts or commandments of Christ oft had to do (again, in my view) with those teachings Christ taught pertaining to love, or loving others. Like those things contained in His "Sermon on the Mount" in Matt. or "Sermon on the Plain" in Luke or "Sermon by the Sea" in Marcion's Gospel. Danny

CM, You certainly have lightened my heart these past couple months as well. I am very grateful to you for that. How old are your kids? I have a 13 year old son and a 14 year old daughter. I can't get over how fast they're growing up. They're as tall as me already. Danny

CM, Your words on pressing forth by the reason of love sound noble and courageous, - but somehow (and perhaps I'm mistaken here) you don't really come across as wholly convinced of that yourself - and I don't blame you. The words of Leonard Cohen come to mind: "You call it love - I call it service." You asked "What's the point of it all?" But what point would you like to make or pursue during the remainder of your brief sojourn on this planet? If you rewind through your memories, chances are you'll recognize it as clear as day - that which you would like to do that brings to you personally the greatest joy and and thrill and satisfaction. It may not even have anything to do with "God", but it certainly may have everything to do with who you are. The "grind of life" may refine us or thwart us or both. If you feel you're losing yourself for the sake of _____[fill in the blank], then you'll have to roll up your sleeves with a brawling swagger and grab some time for yourself to do whatever you want and need to do for yourself- and fight for that if need be. Whether it be time for relaxing with friends (if lonliness is an issue) - or a favorite hobby - or meditation - or whatever ... I could be selfish and full of it, but your post compelled my mind to air these thoughts, for whatever reason. Danny

Excellent points, Socks. Though I think the hierarchal environment which Wierwille created - ironically abandoning entirely his own youthful observations made in his "Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India" - which lessons he himself obviously tossed aside as early as 1972 (as attested with his hostile takeover as described in the Way West thread) - provided the soil for the baser sides of human nature to have flourished; such encouraged the worst in people. Danny

I understand what you're saying, Oak; it's too bad they didn't stick to that more laid-back approach. They just had cook up the Corp. to control the fellowships, I guess. I've picked up a many publications and tapes from different groups over the years. For example, I've gotten the impression that some "groups", like "Concordant Concern", served merely as a custodian/distributor for selling the works of a certain late teacher/writer, rather than being bent on constructing a hierarchy or organization around his ideas to rule the freakin' world. Every time I called Concordant up to order a book, I got the impression there was only one guy there, sitting in a dark basement or something, whom I just awoke with my phone call. The beauty with books or tapes is one could read 'em and listen to 'em, agree or disagree, throw a book on one's shelf or ditch it in the garbage or sell it on Ebay if one so pleased. But noooooo...Wierwille couldn't be content with such a simple, humble "legacy" - he was too damn greedy, power-hungry and stupid. Danny

I've oft wondered if things would have turned out far different had the Way stuck only to "research" and to selling a few books and tapes and ideas, and stayed clear of the entire "fellowship" business, leaving that entirely up to the people themselves in their areas, rather than prying into and trying to meddle with peoples' lives. They should have stuck only to "research" and publishing stuff (whatever its merits or blunders) in their stupid cornfield and left the rest of us alone with our social choices and preferences with the teaching/fellowship stuff. IMHO, their biggest mistake was getting into the "fellowship" business. Danny

On No.7 of "Eon" or "Aeon" referring to "A Supernatural being", Steve L. and I had a discussion on both the pros and cons of this a few months ago here. I set forth my argument for this usage at the 3rd post down. Danny

Frank Perdue just "bought the farm"? Holy $hit, I thought he already died a few years ago (he appeared quite ancient in past TV commercials, before his hatchling took over, and the original rooster faded from sight). I imagine there is not much weeping and gnashing of beaks in the chicken kingdom.

ex70s- Frozen Pizzas...paper plates...c'mon, a little humor can do wonders for a marriage...

You've got to wean yourself off being the martyr-cook, busting your arse for everyone. Here's some ideas: 1.) Frozen pizzas 2.) paper plates 3.) more frozen pizzas 4.) more paper plates. Of course, you can really get fancy if you have a microwave, and just stock up your freezer with TV dinners. Perhaps your wife and family will get sick of frozen pizzas, enough to get off the couch and explore the joys of cooking again. :)--> Danny

I read an article in the paper yesterday how some parents - rather than chocolate Easter bunnies - are getting for their kids chocolate crosses - which I did see in stores last year. Personally, it strikes me as rather tacky for such a powerful symbol. But I suppose one could make an argument in its favor on the basis of Jesus' "Bread of Life" metaphor in John - in which case, maybe sticky, hot cross-buns would be better. Danny

That is a tough one, for someone so young. Perhaps in the case of a 3 year old, chocolate bunnies and jelly beans isn't something so bad for now, until you feel he is ready or able to be exposed to or absorb the subject of death. It all depends on the child, and you know him best. Has anyone among your family or friends passed away? I mean, when you feel he's ready to learn about Jesus dying, you need not go into the grisly detail of a Mel Gibson movie. And in Jesus' case, there's that happy "resurrection" ending, and "He lived happily ever after." Follow your gut on this Chas. And don't beat yourself up if you decide not to tell him this year. Danny

Perhaps I should be feeling a bit "guilty" pertaining to the "Advanced Class" this morning because...I just put up my old "Advanced Class" syllabus on the Ebay auction block (lol). But I hardly look at it anymore. I continue to maintain an open mind as to there being an unseen spiritual dimension...but it retrospect, the Way emphasis on devils-all-around-us didn't allow the hoped and hyped "window" into that world - but as Horse so astutely pointed out, we got suckered as much as perhaps anyone else into accepting the various "paranormal" scams out there (e.g., psychic surgery, "ectoplasm", etc.) were actual spiritual manifestations of some sort. Of course the Way is not alone among the various religions, new and old, yearning for those types of things, along with the ghost-hunters (with all their various "light ball" pictures) and UFOologists (and all of their various, fuzzy "light ball" pictures as well). :)--> Danny

Dennis - did you previously reside in Connecticut a few years ago? Your name seems very familiar to me. Danny Mahar

Cynic, I just dug out my old Advanced Class Syllabus from 1985. On page 10 there's something of a "pie chart" of the different 9 "manifestations" - "Heteros" on one side, for "Believing" and "Kinds of Tongues" - both separated from the remainder of the group categorized "Allos". It reads above the chart: Numeric (quantity, number) distinctions of the manifestations of the spirit: allos -another, when more than two may be involved. heteros- another, when only two may be involved. Below the chart it reads: The generic (kind, class, group) distinctions of allos and heteros are as follows: allos- another, when the others may be in the same category. Galatians 1:7; II Corinthians 11:4. heteros - another, when the others may be of a different category. Galatians 1:6; II Corinthians 11:4 (2nd and 3rd); Matthew 15:30. I think this old syllabus is destined for the auction block. Danny

I don't despise John though in the past, I have been been quite harsh in my posts toward him. So John, if you're reading this, I hope you accept my humble apologies for my past harsh words, even if I may not agree with you in your present ideas, or in your approach in the promotion your material. I must confess, I had become irritated awhile back by the fact that someone had been coming to this forum to promote your teachings, when I think an open discussion with you of your teachings would have more preferred and even beneficial. When I come to this forum, like anyone else here, I express my opinions, whether anyone agrees or disagrees, or be they ultimately right or wrong. I would prefer to stand or fall by I say; but I am also kind of strange, in the fact that often I tend to become rather uncomfortable and nervous if anyone actually agrees with anything I say. Perhaps that's why I never aspired to the ranks of Way "leadership". I'de prefer to see people reach their own conclusions than simply "follow a leader" in any given area. In any event, this forum can be a great "equalizer", where we might all stand on the same ground. There are no "leaders" or "followers" here. In that regard I even imagine this forum to be a better illustration of "the mystery" than the Way ever was. And despite how colorful discussions may become here, the edifying aspects of this forum cannot be overlooked (especially with the "Prayer" section as of recent, which has personally meant a lot to me, as I know it does to others). In any event, I wish John well. Danny

This is very fascinating, Mark. I had only encountered this view briefly a few years ago, when reading a description to one of the late Ernest Martin's studies (ASK publications), though I hadn't gotten around to picking that work up. Apparently, ancient Christian legend has it that Gologtha where Christ was crucified also happened to be the place where Adam was buried (Paul-Louis Couchoud, "The Creation of Christ", vol II). It's also been suggested that the tree upon which Christ was crucified was the tree of the Garden of Eden. But I've forgotten where I read that particular bit. [update]- Ah, here's that link: Danny

Peterson at least won't be getting Robert Blake for a neighbor anytime soon. Whoa, he was creepy in that "Lost Highway" movie... Danny

From my doctrinal weirdo perspective...my thoughts at the moment at least. new wine/old skins - perhaps where Christians are at in the present? we can only patch up these old bodies of ours so much. There will come a time in the future for each of us when new wine must be poured into new skins. I find it interesting that Paul in 1 Cor.5, where he suggests surrendering the flesh of a fornicator over to destruction, "that the spirit might be saved (or "enlivened") in the day of the Lord Jesus." It is a very peculiar section. I doubt we can harmonize all the material in the Bible on this topic. I agree, Jerry, that the truth might very well lie somewhere in the middle. Danny

I had the pleasure of being a "spiritual partner" to a couple very nice people in the WAY CORP. - I still have and cherish all their letters. I think there were quite a few folks who went into the Corp with nothing but the noblest of intentions. For this reason I cannot diss the entire Corp. Like any group, there were excellent folks, and there were arrogant jerks (who naturally tended to be louder). Danny

Mark, On the dating of Zarathushtra, the link I cited earlier contains a couple articles on approximate dating, such as http://www.avesta.org/zfaq.html as well as a timeline - http://www.avesta.org/timeline.htm Judging from both articles, some of their literature was written earlier (approx.1200 BC); some of it compiled and written later (between 220-661 CE). Danny

Chuck, My impression is that many Christians are not really all that familiar with Zoroastrianism. I would think any ancient religion which teaches ideas about prophesied saviors being born to virgins, of angels, of a general resurrection of the dead and of apocalyptic events preceding such might attract a bit more attention and interest. I have even heard the suggestion - I think from E. Martin's work and the Way's "Promised Seed" spin-off - that the "magi" who visited the Christ-child in Matthew may have been Zoroastrian priests. Interesting theory. I would have thought more folks might have become curious enough to inquire: who were these Zoroastrians? what did they believe? what were their scriptures like? As far as Zoroastrian ideas concerning judgment and punishment are concerned, I find their ultimate "universalist" outlook to be strikingly more gracious in its scope than the eternal damnation of sinners in traditional Christian teachings. I'm flattered Chuck, but please don't take my word for it - it's always better to weigh within your own mind and heart concerning such matters. I don't think I'm a "gnostic" in the sense that many non-gnostics (and perhaps a few gnostics)may construe such - a "salvation by knowledge". I still believe that it is through God's very character of Goodness and Love which ultimately saves us all. We are saved by Who God is - not by who we are, or what we do or don't do. Danny

From 'The Bible of the World" (Viking Press, 1949, p.632-33), from an excerpt of the Zoroastrian "Pahvali texts" entitled "The Resurrection"; apparently the equivalent of angels are employed in raising the dead; also, I recalled incorrectly about the "lake of fire" - it is a "river" of molten metal through which all pass; but the purpose, according to the Zoroastrian view, remains the same - to become "pure". Apparently the Zoroastrians believed in the punishment of souls, but in their view it was only temporary. In the end, the entirety of mankind become reunited and "immortal and everlasting": For those interested in a decent and easy introduction and summation of Zoroastrian ideas, check out "Persian Mythology" by John R. Hinnells (1973, Hamlyn House), pp.49-70. An excellent online resource is The Zoroastrian Archives, where all their scriptures are presented as well as various articles and glossaries.

I want one of those "Lost in Space" deals.

I recall one per customer.