TheInvisibleDan

I digress, and agree with the Marcionites - "a bad god is to be feared - a Good God loved." Wierwille feared letting go of the old. The "old man" alongside its old god. Never fully learning or appreciating the "love" of the New. Danny

Nice to see ya, Chuck. The local VFW hall in town recently acquired a Vietnam era US helicopter, which they had mounted on their front lawn in attack mode, replete with a dummy pilot inside. The name of the helicopter? The "Peacemaker". Matthew 5 is kind of like that. It's the "Sermon on the Mount" but it's "mounted" in a rather peculiar way. :)--> Danny

I don't "go" to church. I am the church. You are the church. Another person you may meet is the church. Wherever we go. Wherever we are. The most stunning "fellowship" I 've recently encountered was at work. I worked alongside a man for the day, who shared with me about his wife's struggle and suffering with intestinal cancer, who "should have died" (according to doctors) two years ago, and is holding the cancer at bay on a juice diet. He didn't tell me he was a Christian, nor prosletize himself or his religion (whatever denomination it may have been, I know not nor care). He didn't need to. In our talking He thanked God and I thanked God along with him. No scripture quotings. Just a nod to the "big guy upstairs".

1 Thessalonians 1 9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven , whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 4 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. Most curiously, there are two different versions of 1 Cor.15:51: (KJV, from the Text.Rec.) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (Douay, from the Latin) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.

"Acts" is indeed a "post-Pentecost" writing. And varied in its death/afterlife views. Peter makes his miraculous escape from prison, led by an angel through the gates and past the sleeping guards. He goes to a house and knocks on the door. But those within the house initially refuse to open the door, fearing that "it is his angel". The literal usage, "messenger" for angel doesn't work here. Why fear opening the door to a mailman or delivery boy? No, the supernatural import is intended. The thought of encountering a supernatural being provokes fear and awe and apprehension. Who was this being behind the door thought to be by those within the house? "The angel of Peter" How could they had thought that Peter had become an angel? Had they thought that Peter had been executed? The promise was in the air; Jesus Himself had taught that the "sons of the resurrection" or the sons of the (new) Aeon become "like the angels". Danny

visiting the website was akin to my experience years ago of attending a banquet at a hotel the final evening of my wife's weekend astrology seminar. When a comedian at the mic told dinnertime jokes, which ended with the punchline "pluto must have been in transit" provoking audience laughter and applause. But me? I sat there, a Christian fish out of water, and didn't get it. But the "astrologers" there did. :D--> Danny

Sir Guess, what "value" does this class offer for you ? In reviewing the web-site, I must admit as to not being initially struck or impressed either way. A good many classes (and products) tend to "toot their own horn" toward somehow offering a special knowledge of more or less hatching about a newer and improved "you!" of course who can confirm or deny whether they actually do or not but... what personally draws you to this particular class - perhaps even setting it apart from the rest? Danny

Assuming that the narrow "pan & scan" theology through which you apparently filter and depict these issues takes into account the wider spectrum of ideas on how various Christians throughout the centuries have actually contemplated questions relating to good and evil. Have you, for example, familiarized yourself with notions held amongst ancient Christian "gnostic" movements? And I am certain others here might also offer other profound Christian thinkers and ideas, both ancient and modern. Not to mention the fascinating ideas found in other religions and mythologies. Danny

But in cases where such technology be used for good (i.e., healings) might one also welcome people becoming such "gods"? I understand the negative import behind the phrase (dictators, politicians, cult-leaders, etc.) - but isn't there also a positive dimension to the notion of becoming godlike or, "like God"? Doesn't even the New Testament itself encourage us to "mimic" and "imitate" God (Eph.5)? "Take pity as your Father in heaven also took pity upon you..." If we do this, might this result with us in one sense or another, "becoming" God? Or "putting on Christ"? to "become" His resemblance? Anyways, just a few questions your discussion provoked, perhaps best reserved for a different thread. Danny

Hooner, I was waiting for "Mardi Gras" to come up, because I seem to vaguely recall Mardi Gras being referred to in a conversation between twiers as "the devil's rock of ages" (lol). Danny

Fe-fi-fo-fum.

The Angels of Yahweh were oft attributed power and authority over the elements of earth, wind, water and fire and their manipulation for providing to us and themselves explosive apocalyptic entertainment; Revelation ch.16 reflects this notion, also reverberated throughout the extra-canonical literature (i.e., The Book of Enoch, Jubilees, etc.). This was a belief that circulated among some ancient Jews and Christians (e.g.,the "elements of the world" in Gal.4 and Col.2, also considered the interpretation by the translators of the "Good News Bible" and the James Moffatt version through the rendering "elemental spirits of the world"(or "universe"). In "Revelation" and other contemporous literature, I do not see the writers credit weather patterns to the "devil". This honor belongs to angels, and not fallen ones. Thus concludes my boring historical-mythological gobblygook for the evening. Good nite.

Indeed we could, when coming to recognize the variety of ideas which circulated among early Christians (by no means identical and in agreement) - no longer being restricted to the one "way", view and opinion derived from the shoddy scholarship of a mediocre Bible teacher living 20 centuries later. Far better it is to become acquainted with the writings of the Church fathers, not being separated by so great "gap" of time... Danny

Just more testimony to the paganism still surving in Christianity today. Or Christianity may owe just as much its survival and livlihood to paganism as paganism may to it. I cited no passages; the statement you quoted was my own. Had you actually intended the passages cited by Mark in his post,then your assertion that that material cited by him had been written "centuries [plural] after" is inaccurate. I strongly encourage you to become better acquainted with the dating behind the patristic writers and their works before tossing about such baseless generalizations; for example, Ignatius is dated circ. 105-115 AD (within a hundred years of the Lord's Ascension); Clement of Alexandria, - approx.182 - a bit over a century - but hardly "centuries". If you need help in dating the patristic writers and their material,check out http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ Including the one leading out of New Knoxville. Though such lust and debauchery as has occurred there is hardly to be observed amongst pagans themselves. --> Danny

jOIN US.....join us.... look into my eyes.... send your money to me... obey...OBEY!!!

Thank you Mark, for citing some of these. So far the particular passages you raised appears to confirm a point I raised earlier on page 2 of this thread: This was a highly dramatic and thrilling part of the Salvation epic for early Christians that the Way missed out on - instead only settling on the idea of resurrected spirit of Jesus having only bragged to the imprisoned devils which allegedly caused the deluge. But the Church Fathers cited thus far are hardly limited to that view. Danny

Thanks David. My preliminary observations; it's a very inconvenient, even unprofessional way in which they cited this material; the proper way to have done it (at the very least) would have been to quote the Ante-Nicene writer with the title of the work (e.g., Tertullian, Adversus Marcionem, I.10.4), and then follow it with the volume and page info they had provided above. Besides the fact that they referred to an English translation of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, if serious about exploring and weighing critical textual issues, it is absolutely necessary to consult the various source language editions (Greek, Latin, Syriac, Armenian, etc.) - I've been led down blind allys more than once because I relied upon a poor English rendering of a particular patristic citation, until consulting the actual Greek or Latin text behind it. The patristic writings are also not without their "variants" among the surviving copies of any given work. Danny

And assuming that all early Christians - or supposedly "true" Christians" - let alone the NT writers and editors - were entirely agreed and homogenous in each and every point of their theologies - like the issue of death and afterlife. Hope you and your family and friends abide safely through the coming storm, Evan. Danny

It will be interesting to review these citations first-hand. If you have a moment to spare, would you be so kind as to provide a couple examples of the writers and the works in which the Matt. citation appears, as mentioned in the article? (just the title and the patristic author would suffice). Thanks again. A couple questions to bear in mind when raising the question of a possible interpolation or "forgery"; we must ask ourselves: If the passage be genuine, what might have compelled the writer to write this? Or if the passage be an emendation - what was the motivation behind a later editor adding it? I don't find the assumption, "Because it contradicts the conclusions in 'Are the Dead Alive Now' to be sufficient. Danny

They took my gold. And I never even stepped into Egypt. Though I did see the King Tut exhibit in NY in the late 70s. -->

If I was a die-in-the-wool Wierwille-worshipper I'd be on the next plane to New Zealand. Wow, my butt hurts and my feet become pins and needles just glancing at those pics of folks sitting in them uncomfortable chairs in front of the tube. Wow those were the good ole days...

Yes, I married one. We may well imagine that not every part of them could have been in a "fallen" state.

It seems there isn't a day that goes by where one doesn't encounter struggles from within and without. We desperately yearn for certainty, though through "faith" which can at times feel to us as nothing more than the thinnest thread somehow keeping us connected to the Unseen. The storms will never cease in this world, but you'll get through them.... Danny

Any brief cross-reference to this mention in the article indicating the critical volume from whence this helpful snippet of information was acquired? (Nestle-Aland? Tischendorf? Merk? journal article,-personal discovery? etc.). thanks.

Despite my delay, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post; indeed, the thought never entered my mind that you putting anyone on trial. I had recently viewed the aforementioned movie in which an inquisition questioned Joan of Arc as to what God had promised her (they didn't take kindly to the notion that God gave anybody anything outside the pale of their church). It all leads me to consider anew these things promised by Jesus: "...they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my sake...and I shall give to you a mouth of wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist..." Some thoughout history have certainly received these things. These are the kind of "promises" people usually don't like to discuss. Or print on imitation checkbooks. To be put on trial for one's "faith", under the threat of death, and becoming burned at the stake. What a rush that must be. Danny