TheInvisibleDan

I don't know whether or not there ever was a subterranean dimension called "hell", but if there ever was, the walls of its belly became irreversably breached upon Death's attempt to swallow the Spirit of our Savior. Everything Death eats nowadays, he can't hold down for too long. Even despite Death's desperate measure to chop up souls in a blender to mix into a spicy Pepto-Bismo cocktail, which only made him sicker. Don't invite Death to your parties if you value your carpeting. He's no fun to have around.

Affliction may also possibly lead to the glory of martyrdom, dying as our Lord had died - in imitation of Christ. A partaking in His glory, because we offer ourselves in sacrifice as He did. He offered up His life for us, and we offer up our life for Him, even if unto death. And many early Christians -from a variety of movements - did precisely that. Suffering and martyrdom is also a exhibition of one's faith and conviction - that even if the world afflict and destroy our bodies - it cannot our souls. Another passage that stands out in mind - that despite all his sufferings and afflictions, Paul in his "weakness" was "made strong". One personal "revelation" to me (though certainly not unique to me) upon leaving the Way was recognizing how central "the cross of Christ" played in Paul's theology - and yes, very mystical (and "transcendant", as Mark mentioned) and even cosmic in its proportions. Paul attributed the creation of a "new humanity" directly to the cross. The abolishment of the elemental powers of the universe, and the cancellation of any authority they may have held over our souls. And much much more. The cross is both a symbol of great suffering - yet greater triumph. Danny

Offhand I don't know about the King James translators, but if such was a practice with them, it was done long before them. Even prior to Constantine the Great. The various Christian movements had their own gospels or gospel versions, their own writings which they loved, which they interpreted and translated according to their outlook. Danny

It's a forgery by a later scribe zealous to "change" the truth of Christ into a "lie", by altering and deflecting criticism aimed against the original legalistic apostles to a group of random, godless heathen-types. It's ironic where these sorts of things occur. Paul originally directed his criticism against men who had altered the truth of the gospel into a snare,- against those who had captivated the truth in their dishonesty - to use and enslave people for their own ends. Danny

Yeah, that was great - also caught it on Larry King earlier this evening. The pilot and crew did a commendable job. Danny

I lean toward the "chained-to-a-stump-in-the-doctor's-backyard" scenario. Somewhere in Argentina.

According to John (in the view of Joseph Turmel, La Quatrieme Evangel, 1925): Jehovah.

That's cool. Danny

TGN, I recall many years ago, while I was still involved with twi, meeting a girl in a parking lot selling chocolate bars. When she informed me that she was a Moonie, I responded "Whoa, cool. I'm in a "cult" too!" (after all, the "Moonies" were always listed on the same page as we were, and were despised as much). When we parted, I bid her a blessing. And she lit up with a great smile on her face. One of those unforgettable moments. I should have gotten her number (lol). Danny

Mark, I appreciate your candid and insightful reply. That's an acute point, Mark. Of course, the controversies and disagreements with the Marcionite Church, as has been proposed by some scholars, may have to some degree even influenced the formulation of the Apostles Creed. So obviously, those parts that might be viewed anti-marcionite polemic would not apply to me too well. Because in many respects, -despite their differences -it appears that the Marcionites shared more in common with the Catholic Church -in their practices, their sacraments, and even their ecclesiastical structure - than with later Protestant movements, despite the reformist colors to which later Protestant scholars have understandably painted this subject, through the comparisons to Martin Luther. Or "why would I want to be baptized at all?" -is the question I'm still contemplating. For one reason being that I have never been baptized with water in my lifetime, outside of having held to the belief of "spirit-baptism" taught us in the Way. A public affirmation of my faith, I suppose. Or even something of a Christian re-dedication. Perhaps also from the growing realization that rituals and sacraments may not be something to be mocked and and reckoned unnecessary (as had been my oversimplistic, short-sighted attitude in the past) , but may be energizing to one's sense of faith and God's purpose for our life here. As for the idea of having one baptize me from a different denomination holding even different beliefs - I obviously still subscribe to the naive notion that there are Christians dispersed throughout all churches and denominations. I think I'm past the point of pleading "ignorance" in my case - so I guess I'll have to be an "apostate" in the view of others (lol). Thanks again Mark for your thoughtful reply. Danny

Mark, Thank you for your well wishes on my reconstruction project, as I wish you all the best in your spiritual endeavors as well. You raised a lot of very good questions on the subject of baptism. Over these past couple years, I've been contemplating the idea of undergoing baptism. Outside the illustrious thought of wanting to be baptized in a river, there are certainly other implications to consider...of course, the content of the baptismal formula and its authenticity; finding a good Christian willing to baptize me -though would there be a "catch" of having to pledge membership to their particular denomination, whatever it be? Would a Catholic, for example, be willing to baptize a neo-Marcionite? I'm aware through the writings of the Church Fathers that the Catholics seemingly acknowledged the validity of Marcionite baptisms, and did not require former Marcionites to "re-baptize" for admittance into their church. Would a modern Catholic minister or priest be willing to baptize anew a brother neo-Marcionite (despite his choice of differing ideas)? Thank you. Danny

That's also an excellent piece of advice, Brother Speed. Thank you. Danny

I say blessed are those of the "middle ages" (with all its challenging stumblingblocks of pms and the like) who are "getting any" at all from either gender....lucky them! How I envy you, as I inhabit a state I never personally chose...celibacy (lol) - though I sincerely hope its temporary. At times this "normal heterosexual" stuff isn't all that it's cracked up to be either (lol). Danny

Though this writing be late, there are certain elements therein (e.g., that of another person being crucified in Christ's place; in the case of this gospel, Judas being hung on the cross) that reverbates notions shared by earlier, competing Christian/gnostic traditions; or, if one will, traditions that were regarded heretical and opposed by the tradition(s) that ultimately triumphed. If one has an interest in the obscured traditions of other "lost" Christianities ( as myself, with my undying interest in Marcion and his Christian canon that was compiled and in circulation as early as by the middle of the second century), the writings of the Church Fathers become an invaluable resource, even if one regards their expressions and observations against other Christian movements as understandably biased; (and we might inquire: did the Church Fathers entirely understand the theologies of their opponents? - perhaps no more than their opponents understood them). Nonetheless, certain information preserved by them -even about their opponents - is not available for us elsewhere. The world has had the good fortune of seeing the light of writings not recognized, preserved or transmitted by "The Tradition" of the Great Church - e.g., the Nag Hammadi Library, a few writings which before this discovery were deemed lost to us forever; and God only knows what further great discoveries will come to light in the work being done by Oxford in using infrared light to read and decipher the underwriting of existing manuscripts that were "whited-out" and re-used over the centuries I sincerely hope they finally discover sections of Marcionite texts, so I can compare to see how correct or incorrect my attempted reconstructions of Marcion's Bible these past few years (as well as reconstructions done by others), pieced together from citations by the Church Fathers against Marcion, have turned out (lol). There was also a tradition relating to baptism by the Marcionites, reported by Epiphanius - who exclaimed with patriarchial indignation, "they even permit their women to baptize!" And yes, they used water as well. Tradition has its merits, for which again, we should be extremely grateful. But I no more place an unquestioned "blind faith" on "tradition" than I do the notion of an infallible Bible. Even Christ appears to have strongly chastized religious leaders which appealed to "tradition" as their authority. So one should exercise their caution, and use their heads and hearts in approaching any of this material. By all means, even if with a grain of salt -approach it - draw from it, learn from it what one will, and enjoy it. Danny

That would most likely refer to The Gospel of Barnabas. Danny

Did she indicate to you that she was seeking "deliverance" from being a lesbian - is she unhappy with that part of her life? Danny

While I digress on some minor points you raised, I wholeheartedly agree with your closing statement. The entire body of religious literature that's come down to us - all of it - is an absolute treasure trove of invaluable information and spiritual insight for us. I wish I had more than one lifetime to absorb it all. Danny

In general, the so-called "Pastoral epistles" of 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, 2nd Thessalonians and Ephesians. In addition to scattered sections found throughout those letters regarded genuine. Danny

lol, CM. Well, I'm off to my job at the supermarket produce department, where I will separating the "good fruit" and the "rotten" fruit. God has a wicked sense of humor. ;)--> Danny

A casebook example on how writings were edited and "expanded" during that era may be the epistles attributed to St. Ignatius, of which we have the good fortune of possessing both "long" and "short" versions (or "recensions"). They are quite fascinating to compare, to contemplate the theological differences, tendencies and intents behind each version. They may be reviewed here - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html I think almost all the New Testament writings underwent a similar process. Few are akin to even a poor photocopy printed out directly from the first or even early second centuries. They were shaped and re-shaped and adopted and adapted according to any given movement, their theology, and their circumstances. If there was a particular controversy that a church's leaders felt was not sufficiently addressed in letters attributed to their figure, a missing epistle or even a page might miraculously turn up. Or in the process of writing what we would call "forgeries", a writer or editor may not have considered this activity in such terms. They may have genuinely believed they were expanding an old writing under the inspiration of the guiding spirit of the original writer, and of his God beside him. They weren't thinking in terms of deceiving or fooling anyone; there were current issues, important to the writer and his particular church, that urgently required divine attention and intervention. Writing a new letter (or expanding an old) under the name and inspiration of a beloved figure was one way toward accomplishing this. Danny

Well I'm relieved that I'm not the only one who shares this assumption (lol). Thank you, Sir Guess. Danny

I don't think there's any poster here not possessed and driven by their deepest convictions, to express it the best way they may. I thought the other night, "May you become as truly blessed in your conviction as I am in mine". This seemed as good as place as any to integrate that corny little saying. Much depends, I think, on how much of ones' deepest assumptions one is willing to actually share publicly. The alarming realization oft flashes to mind: wow, this internet thing truly puts anyone's thoughts on the stage for all the world to see. Like some public book of life, that millions on the planet may read. And here, people read your thoughts. Experience all your warts and imperfections. Dissect your faulty logic. SO I may not integrate or relate well at times (lol). I may not even want to. Does everyone here share those feelings to some extent? At least I imagine so. Ultimately I believe - still - that we're all somehow here for a divine purpose, a divine drama -whatever it be - or perchance even a divine comedy - though one may not inhabit the role one expected or even wanted, whether in the past, the present, or the future. Danny

Maybe this is another reason why He chose 12 disciples - to carry His scrolls around for him. And after He subscribed to a couple of scroll clubs, He chose 70 more. ;)--> Danny

You're welcome. Yes, such seems an oversimplication. As Sunesis mentioned earlier, the varieties of Christian movements and ideas during the first two centuries of its history are truly astonishing. And no. They did not all resemble "Protestant/TWI/whatever in nature ". I concur with you on this. No, but I thank you for introducing me to it and the link, which is very interesting. Thank you. Danny

It just as well, whether it was spoken before - or written after - "the fact". "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation has come near." Luke 21:20 Danny